I need some help :P

[WashingtonCowgirl]

So after some difficulty, and tons of reading and looking at pictures, I realized what my issue was:

The cart I bought has no single tree hooks. Can I buy some or make some? I will take some pictures of the cart tomorrow and Spanky in harness as I think it needs some adjusting (have I mentioned I don't know what I'm doing? lol) for critique. It needs a new seat and tires, but I want to know if it needs smaller/bigger tires for his height (34 inches) and anything else you would like to tell me about it

 

[MiLo Minis]

So after some difficulty, and tons of reading and looking at pictures, I realized what my issue was:

The cart I bought has no single tree hooks. Can I buy some or make some? I will take some pictures of the cart tomorrow and Spanky in harness as I think it needs some adjusting (have I mentioned I don't know what I'm doing? lol) for critique. It needs a new seat and tires, but I want to know if it needs smaller/bigger tires for his height (34 inches) and anything else you would like to tell me about it

You can purchase singletree hooks at most harness/cart supply houses or cart makers. They need to be installed properly though as they are a pretty important piece. If you really don't know what you are doing I hope at least your horse is a very experienced driving horse and you have seen him driven before? Pictures would be very helpful as we could give you an idea of whether or not you have him hitched correctly but I would suggest that if you have never harnessed or driven a horse before you seek the help of someone experienced that is close to you - either take you and your outfit to them or have them come to your farm. We can only do so much looking at photos and it is extremely important that your horse is hitched correctly for both your safety and his!

 

[susanne]

Michelle,

Dorothy Whiteman is a fantastic trainer, and not far from you (Elma, WA). At the VERY least, you need to talk with her and find out what would be involved. She and Ron are great people.

A mini may seem totally safe and under your control while you are on the ground, but once you get in the cart, they're in charge. A mini can run you into the path of a semi just as easily s a big horse. I prefer to put my life in the hooves of the well-trained.

 

[WashingtonCowgirl]

He had 90 days with Patty Cloake before I got him, but I'm not sure if he has ever been hitched before. He really is a perfect angel though so I'm confident I can do it my self. I'm 90% sure that after I get his harness adjusted right he will be fine,. The first time he was ever ridden was by a 3 year old and he acted like he had done it a million times before. I've had him for about 4 months now and he has ridden in the passenger seat of my car, been ridden by tons of kids (all under 50 pounds, no worries), ground driven into buildings (my house, others houses, and the local gas station) next to buses and semis, dealt with guns near him etc. I did his groundwork exactly like I would for a horse I was riding, and he has never offered more then a twitch of the ear for any experiences. Here he his in his harness and then with the cart just pulled through the tugs to see if everything is the right height/length

Is it just me or is the breeching a little low?









Where the singletree hook should be:



ETA:

I know you guys are just trying to be helpful and don't want to see anyone hurt, but you can't see a horses temperment through pictures. He is a dream with everything and I fully trust him (BUT that doesn't mean I ever let my guard down, just cause I trust him doesn't make me stupid lol)

 

[candycar]

I'm no expert, but since no one else has chimed in yet and you did ask .... From what I've learned... and experienced, I mean no disrespect, I've been there....

In my opinion, the cart looks a little too large for him. Maybe he's very small or the cart is "pony" size. The shaft ends should be even with the point of shoulder and sit level or slightly uphill. Maybe it's the level of the pic, I can't tell. I think with the shaft ends where they should be that would put the cart too far away from his rear, 8-12 inches depending on his stride is what I've heard.

And the shafts look a little wide , If you put the tug loops where they should be, they may stick straight out!? Have you checked the cart balance,with a person sitting in the cart and holding it from where the tug loops should sit and at his height?

The breeching does look very low.

About the singletree, maybe it's the kind that the trace slots fit over and then you have a "string" thingy that fits through the hole and kind of ties them on. I've never use that kind LOL! I just went ahead and bought a wood singletree with the hooks on it form Iowa Valley Carriage.

That's great he was trained with Patty Cloake! Maybe that's why he's so accomidating about all he's been through. I know my little mare is very tolerant of my mistakes until I fix them!

All that said, If you have a trainer or someone who has hitched before close to you, Please take advantage of it! I can only dream of having someone close to me who can help with my driving adventures!

Good Luck

 

[WashingtonCowgirl]

I have a picture from above the cart that I will post, now that you mention it it does look a little wide. As for the length, when it is level with the point of his shoulder there is 13 inches exactly at the back, is that too long? Its a mini sized cart, and he is 34 inches but narrower then I'd like. Yes we have tested balance, everything drives nice (when the tire was aired up we were pulling each other around on it lol) and its feather light even with two people in it.

I would love more then anything to be able to afford a trainer, or even to take lessons, but I don't have that kind of money. I spent my last few dollars on this cart so I can continue with his training myself. He isn't the first horse I've trained, just the first to drive. I've never had lessons or a trainer in the past. If I have to I will learn things the hard way, like I did with training horses to ride, with what works and what doesn't. If at all possible I'd just like my questions answered to the best of your knowledge. I've learned to train big horses on my own by being a sponge and learning everything about everything I could, then doing it hands on and figuring out what works and what doesn't. That's how I plan to learn to drive and how I plan on teaching Spanky. Don't get me wrong, I asked for advice, but I'd really like advice pertaining to doing it myself. I'm just here to ask questions and pick brains

Its not easy to get him to stand straight in the shafts, but this is the best I have right now

 

[stellabella]

I agree with everything Candycar said.

The cart looks like it is large and wide for him. You can use different size tires to adjust the height and balance in come cases. I have also seen ppl cut the shafts shorter. Just be sure you cover the ends because they can be sharp. Rubber cane or crutch bottoms work well for the end of the shafts.

I would highly suggest you have someone help you the first time you hitch him. Its always a good Idea to have another set of eyes and hands.

Hope that helps

 

[RhineStone]

The great thing about driving people is that usually they are very willing to share information. If you can't afford an instructor, then at least find a local driving club where you can meet other drivers who may be able to help and mentor you. Believe it or not, even big horse drivers can help a new mini driver.

If you make connections with other drivers, you might be able to get the opportunity to drive a horse before you try to train one to drive. Our club has trail drives and sometimes members with horses that aren't ready for the trails will just bring themselves and catch a ride in a vehicle with another driver. That is GREAT experience. Would you break a horse to ride if you didn't know how to ride? The challenge and difference with learning to drive the hard way is that if you get bucked off a riding horse, you can get back on. If you have a wreck with a green driving horse, he may never drive again. It's too traumatic to have that thing chasing him. (We ruined our first horse that way, taking him in a parade in which he wasn't ready for. He never drove again...and we tried.

)

You aren't missing any singletree hooks. That is somebody's version of a sword end singletree, and a scary one at that. The trace slots fit over the ends, and like has been said, something holds the trace on by being fitted through that hole, like a bolt. I would replace the entire "singletree" with a real wood one, either sword end or hook end. Or you could get some snap shackles for that hole, but they are about $20 a piece. Don't cheapen out and get any old snap. That is a point of draft and failure, and you need a strong connection.

And then the singletree needs to be fitted with straps to limit its own swing. They should have just enough play as to not interfere with the movement of the horse's shoulders. The purpose for the straps is to keep the singletree from smacking the horse in the butt if one of the traces comes off. (You can read a story about what happened to somebody who didn't put on those straps on my website on the Driving Safety page.) It gives you just a bit of time to stop the horse before something worse happens. (Go read the story... http://rhinestone-ridge.wikispaces.com/Driving+Safety.) Even simple dog collars do the trick, as long as they are in the right spot.

There are also a couple of "He's just a little mini. How much harm can he do?" stories, too, on my website, which is why people here are trying to convince you to get some help. The more you learn, the more you realize the less you know. I have clients that can't believe some of the things they did when they were first learning to drive and didn't know any better now that they know more. They said they had angels on their shoulders, because they could have had some awful wrecks. Regardless...

Your cart is definitely too big. Maybe you can have the shafts cut down and bent in some. That is what my mom did with our first cart. I would also make sure those are true cart wheels and not bicycle wheels. Bicycle wheels are not made for the sideways torque a cart puts on them.

It's good that you are getting this input at this time in your process, but another "mistake" you've made is to have the horse in the cart without a bridle and tied to the fence. I understand what you are trying to do, but this is not accepted practice for driving horses. There is SOOOOO much to learn when starting to drive.

If it helps, there is also a list of resources (books, videos) on my website on the Links page, as well as articles I have written on the Cart and Harness Education page. When I have time in the next few weeks, I hope to add an article focusing on cart parts, fit, and care. But before you go out and purchase a book, I would take that $$ and apply it towards even one lesson on a finished driving horse, no matter what the size. That will be money well spent.

Myrna

 

[WashingtonCowgirl]

Alright, I guess its time to come clean. I've driven him 3 times. The first time was in a halter, the second was in a bridle and the third was at night on Halloween. My personal opinion is that if something were to happen and I would need to drive him in a halter I could. I do the same with riding horses. If a bridle breaks on a trail I like knowing that I can get home safely. But I guess if all I'm going to do is get lectured on safety and how I can't do this myself then I'll just figure this out myself. Thanks anyways though. I be back with pictures showing his progress.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

Sweetheart there is a lot of difference between being lectured and being given good sound advice!

Minis are by nature (usually!!) very tolerant, but we make the mistake of confusing that tolerance with training. If a hose allows you to sit on it's back - and there is no reason why a well handled youngster should not- would you consider that horse to be saddle trained?

I don't think so!

Just because your very tolerant little man allows you to harness him up and put him into a cart that is too big for him in harness that is not correctly adjusted does not mean he is ready to drive. I think you should go back to basics- ground drive him out in traffic, along the trails you intend to drive on, etc, and get him used to all the things he will see and do when in the cart. If a horse spooks and "folds" back on itself when being driven form the ground there is no harm done, when he does the same (and ALL horse have a spook in them) when confined by shafts you have a wreck.

I have been driving for over thirty years, on and off, and my tiny little 30" TOAD still managed to get away from me the other day- I am lucky, he and the cart were still in one piece and I was able to go back to driving him afterwards but he is shaken up by it and we are going to have to go back a few steps- this is a horse who has been working non stop now for three weeks solid, and who has been working in the cart, which was made to fit him, for over a week, every single day.

Stuff happens.

All we are asking you to do is try to make sure it does not happen to you or your pony!

The cart is too big BUT there are things you can do- if you will listen to the advice- that you can do, very cheaply, to fix it.

The harness is not right yet, but if you put up a picture of all the harness on the pony we can tell you what to do to put it right, it is rarely any more than punching a few more holes!!

 

[New mini]

Michelle

Please do not take any of the answers as being lectured. I have asked question on this site as I am a beginner drive too. I could have taken the answers as a lecture too but typed words are hard to read. I found all people here that give advise do with good intentions. As I would put it "they have been there and done that" They are trying to help us learn without all the frustrations that they went through. I am learning from your questions too. I have had lessons and found driving is not as easy as it looks. I was able to get my own mini a few weeks ago. He is a well trained treasure.and I am driving him. He is teaching me a few things as I drive him. I am having a ball and learning all the time from question and answers here. Please keep reading the answers here and use the information that you want to and let the knowlegable people here help all of us.. Here is a picture of my mini. I do drive with a helmet and gloves too

 

[RhineStone]

Alright, I guess its time to come clean. I've driven him 3 times. The first time was in a halter, the second was in a bridle and the third was at night on Halloween. My personal opinion is that if something were to happen and I would need to drive him in a halter I could. I do the same with riding horses. If a bridle breaks on a trail I like knowing that I can get home safely.

But I guess if all I'm going to do is get lectured on safety and how I can't do this myself then I'll just figure this out myself.

I hope you mean that you had the halter over or under the bridle, and not just that you had him put to the cart in a halter only. That is another major no-no in the driving world.

Even my 10 yr. old son looked at the photos and could pick out, without any prompting from me, what was wrong.

I probably spent most of an hour typing my advice, but if it is going to be construed as a lecture, I guess my husband was right that spending all this time on this forum is a waste of time, especially when people don't listen. And we wonder why minis and their drivers can have such a bad reputation in the driving world.

It's unfortunate, but it is reality, propagated by this "It's just a little mini" and "I can do it myself even if it is wrong" attitude. I've spent most of the last few years trying to make a difference to change this attitude, but most of the time, minis just are not taken seriously, sometimes even by their own owners. I guess I will just try to make a "silent statement" by driving my own horses correctly and not waste my time typing.

Good Luck. Glad you live there, and I live here.

If you need me, my contact info is on my website. I am more than happy to help people who really want it.

I LOVE to teach and help people be successful.

)

Myrna (who might check in once and a while, but this was the nail in the coffin for an already rocky situation with this pretty blue forum my husband hates....)

 

[MiLo Minis]

I wasn't going to bother wasting my time replying to this thread any more but I HAVE to respond to this!

Myrna, you aren't on here to help people like the original poster of this thread who is totally beyond help until he/she sees the light and realizes that our VERY GOOD AND WELL INTENTIONED ADVICE is NOT criticism OR who may well be one of those pathetic people that don't have a life and have come here to stir up some excitement for themselves in a very pathetic way by causing trouble.

You are here to help those of us like "New Mini" and myself and MANY OTHERS who WILL listen to your knowledgeable advice on vehicles and ADS.

Please don't deprive the rest of us of your input just because of some (likely very young), impatient and foolish poster. I know how your husband feels because mine reacts the same way, as I sometimes do myself, when I tell him about some foolish person that has posted here but for every foolish person there are at least a hundred others that are sincerely seeking help and knowledge that you, and I, and many others, have to offer. We can't force anyone to take our advice but we can take satisfaction, for ourselves, in knowing that we have done what we can to help prevent a horse, if not a person, from being injured. If you can't bring yourself to do it for the people any longer - DO IT FOR THE HORSES!

 

[kathy k]

Hello WA Cowgirl. Hang in there you will get it right it just takes time and some tweeking of cart and harness. I have driven for 20+ years in both CDE's and Carriage shows. I have mostly driven pony's and now I am in the process of training a miniature horse to drive who I will be showing. I live in Southern Oregon where there are no trainers and very few CDE drivers.

Your cart: I bought one almost exactly like it but in worse condition. I had the shafts shortened, some of the welds fixed, added BMX wheels and had it painted. I also made a new seat for it. So you too can make your cart so it fits nicely with your mini. Yes, my shafts are just as wide as your and yes the mini has gobs of room. Solve your single tree problem with two good caribiners.

Your harness: get a hold of a good driving book, or look on line, and harness your mini just as the pictures show. The book will probably show you how to hitch the mini up to the cart so follow the drirections paying attention to the placement of everything..Have a friend help you in the beginning to get things adjusted then it's just a matter of always harnessing the same way.

Yes, ADS has many rules for safty. Read them and impliment them into your driving. You will find that the safer you and your mini are the more fun you will have.

Cheers Kathy

 

[WashingtonCowgirl]

I think you should go back to basics- ground drive him out in traffic, along the trails you intend to drive on, etc, and get him used to all the things he will see and do when in the cart.

I have sweetheart, and he is a perfect angel like always. Thanks though

 

[shelterwood]

Washington Cowgirl,

Please, don't take the advice the folks give on here the wrong way. After all, you posted and ASKED for advice and help, then promptly rejected what was given to you. I am also NOT new to horses or driving, but totally new to minis and training a horse to drive. Sometimes it's really hard to swallow your pride in both yourself and your horse and admit that there is always room to learn and grow. No one has said that you have a bad horse or have done bad things, what I read is concern for your welfare and your horse's welfare and enjoyment of driving, and I can tell that you love your little man to pieces and nobody wants you to have a bad experience with him, either in an accident or with ill-fitting equipment, and ruin all the fun that awaits you both.

Myrna, if you even check in to read this, you are a wealth of knowledge and I have personally learned so much from reading your posts, your website, and your responses to my questions. I appreciate your "by the rules" way of teaching as there is a reason things are done the way they're done.

Lori, you give amazing advice too, and since I too have no trainers available nearby, it is so fabulous to post on here and get honest answers. No point in sugar coating things if something isn't right. OK, off my soapbox.

Katie

 

[MiLo Minis]

I have sweetheart, and he is a perfect angel like always. Thanks though

I have a mare that I love to bits! She is an absolute angel in hand and when being ground driven. She is a quiet, sweet and gentle soul UNTIL you hitch her to a cart. She can be fine one minute and totally ballistic the next. She is really not meant to be a driving horse I have come to decide although I still drive her on the trails around here where there is less likelyhood of me being injured because I bought her as a filly with the intention of driving her - she moves beautifully. I don't take her in the ring any longer because that would just be too downright dangerous to others and I wouldn't allow anyone else to drive her - it is one thing for me to risk myself but highly unfair for me to risk others. My point is that you really don't know until you get driving the horse exactly how it is going to react and the fact that you may or may not have the horse hitched correctly is just asking for trouble. It would be so much safer for both you and your horse to have someone actually there with you that knows what they are doing and can help you out in case of trouble.

 

[shorthorsemom]

I hope you mean that you had the halter over or under the bridle, and not just that you had him put to the cart in a halter only. That is another major no-no in the driving world.

Even my 10 yr. old son looked at the photos and could pick out, without any prompting from me, what was wrong.

I probably spent most of an hour typing my advice, but if it is going to be construed as a lecture, I guess my husband was right that spending all this time on this forum is a waste of time, especially when people don't listen. And we wonder why minis and their drivers can have such a bad reputation in the driving world.

It's unfortunate, but it is reality, propagated by this "It's just a little mini" and "I can do it myself even if it is wrong" attitude. I've spent most of the last few years trying to make a difference to change this attitude, but most of the time, minis just are not taken seriously, sometimes even by their own owners. I guess I will just try to make a "silent statement" by driving my own horses correctly and not waste my time typing.

Good Luck. Glad you live there, and I live here.

If you need me, my contact info is on my website. I am more than happy to help people who really want it.

I LOVE to teach and help people be successful.

)

Myrna (who might check in once and a while, but this was the nail in the coffin for an already rocky situation with this pretty blue forum my husband hates....)

Awww please don't check out... there are those of us that pour over and read and re-read the postings of the experienced drivers.. Myrna.. Leia... all of you that have so patiently explained over and over again from experience to those of us who are newbies to driving. You all have been so kind to me while I find my way into driving with minis.

I would be a hypocrite to say that I have never asked for critique and then had an initial knee jerk reaction to someones critique. I can be overly sensitive, while at the same time very curious what someone thinks, what a combination of emotions that can be. I know how it feels to post your photos and ask for critique... and then say "Hey!" Then I sit back, smack myself in the head and go back and look at the photos and more often than not... I agree with the critique... and I change what I am doing. Sorry to anybody on this forum if I have ever come across abrupt, I would never intentionally turn away sound advice. In fact I remember being initially defensive when someone suggested I lose the check rein on my horse... I defended it... now weeks later, am already thinking of having a new crownpiece made for my bridle that doesn't have the little loops for the side check on it. LOL. I guess the point I am trying to make is that rest assured... people re-visit the comments, especially when they get more than one with the same point of view.

I am fortunate to have a dear friend working with me that has many years experience. She had me start my boy all over as if he were green even though he had many driving miles with his former owner... Why? Because he had a wreck in his past after a runaway situation. We started from the ground up. We also go over the fit of the tack. The importance of having the britching right so it holds the cart back going down a hill, the importance of placement of the breast collar so it is easier for him to pull. The importance of how you hook every trace, line, buckle. My cart is 12 inches from the hock to the single tree. My experts say I still have my boy out too far...we are aware, and have plans to bring him in closer in the near future. For now, no bucking strap, we prefer to be out just a tad. We discuss wheels, and turns and balance, helmets and gloves. Focus is on safety. Hindsight is 20-20, and world is filled with "if only I had...".

I hope we can use this thread is a learning experience. Love all of you, newbies, experienced individuals too... Thanks for everything... Adair

 

[Elizabeth Pannill]

Myrna please reconsider not posting to this forum. I think most of us look forward to your posts and learn a lot from them. I come from a big horse back ground and started riding saddleseat when I was 12. I was lucky to have as my first driving horse a been there..done that mini who taught me a lot about driving. I was also very lucky to meet some great people who enjoyed teaching others about driving safely. Safety must come first when driving . The more I drive the more I understand that . My advice is to find a mentor who has driven and always be open to learning the right way.

Elizabeth

( getting ready to take Magic to a pleasure driving trial tomorrow ..can't wait ! )

 

[hobbyhorse23]

It's always so tough to know how to take things that are typed out by people you don't know, whose perspective you don't know, in a tone you can't hear. And they can have the same problem in reading the initial post! I remember Michelle's initial threads about Spanky on the main forum and her description of her background, so I read her post here with that in mind and mentally gave her some lee-way. She's an young adult (19) with AQHA/APHA experience who has been desensitizing this horse and doing groundwork with him for some months now, and her posts have been articulate and considered to this point. That said, I can see exactly how the more experienced posters here are taking what she said as being from a younger person who is not willing to learn. There are things she left out and ways she phrased things that make it sound that way.

Can everyone just take a break?

I think saying things like "Good Luck. Glad you live there, and I live here," and "...people like the original poster of this thread who is totally beyond help until he/she sees the light and realizes that our VERY GOOD AND WELL INTENTIONED ADVICE is NOT criticism OR who may well be one of those pathetic people that don't have a life and have come here to stir up some excitement for themselves in a very pathetic way by causing trouble" were WAY out of line and in the second case, derogatory. Seriously? You just wrote off an entire person based on a few written words on a page. She came here for help, with perfectly reasonable questions.

A western rider is going to look pretty ignorant at a hunter jumper show because they use the "wrong" equipment, ride the "wrong" way, and do things that would make George Morris turn green. But that western rider isn't stupid or even necessarily a poor horseman, he's just used to doing things a different way. If he's serious about learning to ride hunter he will eventually learn the new way of doing things but maybe he's going to take awhile to understand why people are suggesting these foreign-seeming ideas. (Short stirrups?? Ride with contact?!) As Shorthorsemom said, it can take time to get used to new concepts! That hunt rider is doing things in a very traditional, very formal manner which is in no way wrong and yet they're going to look pretty stupid trying to ride that way at a dude ranch. People come from different backgrounds and sometimes the things someone from one background says simply are not going to make sense to someone from another. You can ride in a halter- it may not be as efficient a means of communication, but as she said it's nice in an emergency to know your horse is trained to accept it. Why would she think that was different just because a cart was attached? There are reasons why it's potentially different, but she wouldn't know about those until someone explained or she saw for herself the accidents that can happen.

Since I rarely have help when driving I've done an awful lot of pictures of horses tied to a trailer or fence with a cart attached and continue to do so, but after seeing one big horse blow up in that circumstance and viscerally realizing WHY people say something so innocent-seeming is a big deal, you bet I don't do it lightly! Again- learned from experience.

Anyway, I'm sorry to see the thread this turn has taken as I think Michelle is potentially a great addition to the driving world and would hope we could simply answer her technical questions as she politely asked us to.

Michelle, I absolutely do agree with the others that it would be nice if you could drive an experienced driving horse first and get some in-person help. Not only does it help you get a feel for what you're trying to teach Spanky, it's fun! Spanky may be the most accepting, naturally-talented guy in the world and between your real-world groundwork and 90 days with Patty Cloke he probably is, but that doesn't help you get your harness hooked up correctly or make those minute adjustments that any of us end up making during our first drives. You don't have to spend a lot of money with a trainer; I've offered before to come down there and spend a day with you as I LOVE helping new drivers and am not that far from you up in Snohomish.

I've taught the harness fitting seminar at the Northwest Miniature Horse Club spring clinic every year for the last four years and getting everything adjusted is sort of my specialty.

It does look from the pictures like your cart is way too big for him but I also see almost a fish-eye type distortion in those shots which makes me think the perspective is thrown off due to something in your camera. The shots taken from above look like it's a closer fit than it appears from the side and I'd like to see it in person to make a better judgment call and help you get things connected as well as possible. You've got a good basic harness, a good horse, and possibly a workable cart. Let's play!

Leia