Humane issue: Driving Horses roaring/wheezing

[ClickMini]

Okay, this is something that has bothered me for a LONG time. When you watch a class of high-performing single pleasure/roadster horses you often hear them breathing loudly, roaring or wheezing. They are soooo constricted in their throats from tension the poor things just can't even breathe! I noticed now while watching the Western Regional show online that even some of the country horses are doing it. To me, this is a humane issue! I am considering submitting a rule change to indicate that a horse demonstrating this behavior is to be severely penalized in the judging. Honestly, I never saw this kind of thing in big horses, and mini people seem to accept this as a matter of course. As a former dressage rider, I am absolutely horrified if I hear my horse do this, and yes I have. I competed my mare in Single Pleasure very successfully as a 3yo under a trainer, and dropped her to country because I just couldn't stand this kind of thing. She ONLY did this when she was forced up into a SP frame, and yes I do consider overchecks, martingales, and other devices to be force.

Is it time for a change? Perhaps police ourselves before others do it for us?

 

[ClickMini]

If you vote NO, could you please explain why?

 

[disneyhorse]

Although I definitely DO know where you are coming from with this, I think it could be a little to vague (how "labored" does the breathing have to be? I mean, some horses you can hear from a mile away and some horses just breathe "hard").

To me, I think there are lots of "gray areas" that would be great to fix but I'm not sure how. I think similar to this issue could be the miniatures that have "excessive" hoof growth (sometimes toe, sometimes heel) in the driving ring for more action. Should be penalized, but again, a gray area...

So for now... no... I would just hope that judges have enough common sense to try and take it into consideration. I think judges have a lot on their plate, I never look down on them for most of the decisions most of them make (no one is perfect... and while there are crappy judges most I think are at least decent).

Andrea

 

[Marty]

Michael's old Quarter Horse roared. I bought him like that. I had him scoped first at the pre-purchase exam and the vet said he wasn't too bad but we would have to take it really slow and careful with him. We did. For what we wanted, he was fine and didn't roar in the easy classes we put him in. He still whinnied and never lost his voice. I could never imagine anyone pushing a horse that roared in top competition. That could kill a horse.

I'm not sure how you would write up a rule as Andrea pointed out the grey areas so watch the wording and I hope it passes.

 

[horsefeather]

I would love to see this pass, but, alas, I don't see it happening. Certain folks hi up in the club would never let it pass.

Pam

 

[Minimor]

I have seen this in big horses, but not so often--there was a gal here that had a big gelding that started doing this when he was checked up for the show ring, and I don't mean he just made a little bit of noise, he was scary--in the one class some of us watching thought he was going to keel over. He didn't--but he sure sounded like he wasn't getting any air, and he wasn't looking comfortable at all. I don't know how the owner felt like driving him when he was like that, but if there was any chance that she could go out there & get a ribbon & earn some points toward a year end high point award, she was going to be out there in the ring with that gelding!

I would be in favor of a rule, but at the same time I do agree that there could be problems with interpreting the rule--some horses do breathe louder than others. I wouldn't like to see them penalized, but those that are truly having problems due to being checked up too tight--yes, there needs to be some way to discourage that. I wish people could realize that not all horses are built to be checked up so tight!

 

[Sandy B]

I voted No, as it is too vague. What exactly would be classified as a roarer? There are lots of loud breathing horses out there that are not roarers and do not have heaves. I have had many over my 35 years and not one was ever diagnosed as one. It would be hard to police. I would hope that judges would notice a horse in distress in a class and whistle it out if one was a real roarer or in some sort of respiratory problem.

 

[minigrub]

I think this is is less of a concern than the other things going on in the driving division. Seeing kids give their horses "peppy juice" and the gross overuse of the whip in warmup arena are more worrysome for me.

I know some driving horses that get loud (ish) in the arena due to stress or dust and don't think these horses Should be penalized. I also agree that the grossly over the top roaring horses should be. Writing that rule is going to be a very slippery set of words. Good luck.

I think this is is less of a concern than the other things going on in the driving division. Seeing kids give their horses "peppy juice" and the gross overuse of the whip in warmup arena are more worrysome for me.

I know some driving horses that get loud (ish) in the arena due to stress or dust and don't think these horses Should be penalized. I also agree that the grossly over the top roaring horses should be. Writing that rule is going to be a very slippery set of words. Good luck.

 

[dreaminmini]

I get disheartened by the things people do to their horses all for the sake of a ribbon. Is their life that lacking that the ribbons are going to make it better? Define them as a superior person?? How are the ones that play by the rules supposed to compete with the chains, cayenne pepper, "peppy juice", excessive whipping, improper trimming to get an over back under the 38", cranking that overcheck and the list goes on. People overlook it because those people get results and heaven knows it is all about the results. What about old fashioned competiton, playing fair? Treat the horses and each other humanely. This is a passion, a hobby, a lifestyle for many but it is NOT a war. So yes, weed out the roarers. For their health and maybe we should be looking closer at what we are breeding and not forcing our horses to perform beyond their capabilities.

 

[REO]

Seeing kids give their horses "peppy juice" and the gross overuse of the whip in warmup arena are more worrysome for me.

PEPPY JUICE?

 

[hobbyhorse23]

How are the ones that play by the rules supposed to compete with the chains, cayenne pepper, "peppy juice", excessive whipping, improper trimming to get an over back under the 38", cranking that overcheck and the list goes on. People overlook it because those people get results and heaven knows it is all about the results.

I agree 100%. People end up resorting to this stuff because it's what wins, and that's what makes me sick. Changes HAVE to start with the officials because until they start rewarding horses who are well-trained, happy and comfortable in their job (which is not to say they aren't also animated and bridled up) the trainers have no reason not to make the horses miserable if it's what wins. As you said- what is so important about a 6 cent ribbon that it's worth ruining your horse over?

For their health and maybe we should be looking closer at what we are breeding and not forcing our horses to perform beyond their capabilities.

You don't hear so much roaring (not in the sense of a respiratory problem like heaves but the kind that is caused by being agitated and pushed too hard with their throatlatch constricted) in big horses because most of the ones being asked to do high action classes have long, thin necks with clean throatlatches that hinge easily and the horses are taught to give and flex at the poll. How they use their muscles in that same head position makes all the difference! One with her mouth strapped tightly shut, head pulled up high, then nose brought down and in via a martingale and shoved forward is going to be tense and holding her jaw against that pressure which blocks the windpipe behind the jaw. Another horse that has been taught to elevate from the root of the neck can hold their head at the same height with their nose on the vertical with ease because they have completely relaxed all the muscles of their lower neck and jaw and it actually becomes thinner. You can try this for yourself...make a "bullfrog face" like you're trying to puff out your throat beneath your chin by contracting the muscles on the front of your neck. Then pretend there's a string attached to the top of the back of your head and someone is pulling on it, elongating your spine. Feel how your chin naturally tips down without all that contraction? That's what we're shooting for with our horses, and a horse who is trained in this sustainable manner should never roar while working. Breathe a bit louder in a dusty arena and when pushed to a maximum animated trot, sure. But not roar.

I know we coax ourselves that things like this are "normal" and not that bad, but I've come to be of the opinion that anything we have to rationalize to our children and our non-horsey or other-horse-sport friends should be looked at twice and three times. It's like the old belief that babies couldn't feel pain in spite of the fact that they were screaming as you did surgery on them, or rationalizing docking the tails of puppies without anesthesia because it "isn't that bad" despite their cries. How can we teach ourselves to ignore such things?!

It's the greatest sort of insanity to decide that what our children could see in a heartbeat is wrong because some empowered authority gave us a good line about why it isn't.

Just my .02

Leia

 

[valshingle]

I'm not sure where you are showing that you see overuse of the whip and children giving horses 'peppy juice' (whatever that is). I do a bit of showing in TX, OK, and Nationals and Worlds and I really haven't seen a lot of abuse. There are a few people that are a bit heavy handed, but I haven't seen any real abuse on the showgrounds.

As for roaring, I think you need to differentiate between true roarers and those that are what I call mechanical or positional roarers. A true roarer will roar whenever they exercise, not just when harnessed. When endoscoped, a true roarer will show partial paralysis of the left dorsal cricoarytenoid muscle due to the left recurrent laryngeal nerve dying back. A mechanical roarer only makes noise when his head is flexed in a particular way. His endoscope exam will be normal.

I will be honest and admit that I have one driving horse that tends to have a mechanical roar. My trainer and I encourage him to flex properly to avoid this happening. And, by the way, it will happen whether he is checked or unchecked. When he gets excited, he will get in the wrong position. We believe it may stem from some earlier training that he had, which we are working to correct. He is also pulling like a Mack truck, so he certainly isn't growing 'faint' from lack of oxygen. In fact, I rarely even touch this horse with a whip. He has been scoped and the vets have found nothing wrong. This particular horse is now in his teens and performs more energetically and animated every year. So he certainly doesn't seem to be 'suffering' from any abuse.

I can't believe that any horse that is a true roarer will have the physical ability to perform well in driving. I agree that true roarers should be kept out of the performance arena (including jumping), but policing mechanical roarers would be very difficult - is it the horse's excitement, the driver's hands, the position of the check, the tightness of the cavesson, the position of the bit in the horse's mouth, etc.?

I think it is very easy to sit ringside and criticize what you see without knowing all the facts.

Ok, flame away

 

[kaykay]

Regarding trainers:

They only do what their CLIENT allows them to do. Dont blame the trainer, blame the owner.

A good judge will always dq a roaring horse. A bad judge wont. This is why its so important to let your voice be heard and file complaints etc. I know easier said than done.

You can make a rule for common sense unfortunately. And ASPC/AMHR has to stop passing rules that cannot be enforced or have no consequences. Because then it is pointless.

All it takes to end a trend is for enough people to stop doing it. I have said this for years.

There are lines I personally refuse to cross to get a ribbon and I stick to that. I know many people agree with me but cave to peer pressure and do things to their show horses they know are wrong.

 

[Crabby-Chicken]

Yes I good judge should DQ a horse if it makes that noise. And If it is out driving and making that noise, I don't care what is going on, it should be a telltale sign something is wrong. We are asking too much of the horse somewhere.

 

[Minimor]

The thing is, I don't think that a good many people do know what is wrong in many cases. There are many novice owners in the Miniature breed, and when they go to a show & don't do well, they look around to see how their horse differs from the winning ones, or they ask someone for advice. They see that the winner has a higher headset and/or someone tells them that in order to win their horse has to have his head up higher....so they ask how do we do this and they get told they need to check him up higher and so that is what they do. They don't realize their horse may not be built to carry his head that way, they just do what they are told they need to do. They check the horse up and don't realize that they have made him extremely uncomfortable.

As far as who is to blame, the owner or the trainer, that can depend too. Again, a novice owner depends on his trainer to do things right--to look after the horse properly, to train him properly and present him to his best performance in the ring. The owner may not know what his horse is or is not physically capable of, he may not know what effect checking a horse up tight has on a horse with a certain conformation, he may not know what effect chains or shackles or rubber bands have on a horse's movement, so when the trainer puts chains and a tight check on the horse the owner thinks this is the way it's done, the trainer says it is okay and so it must be okay. In that case the trainer is very much to blame--because the trainer should certainly be knowledgeable enough about conformation to know what a horse is or is not capable of. If the owner is an experienced, knowledgeable horseman that uses a trainer because he doesn't like going out in the ring himself, or because he doesn't have the time to train/condition/show the horse himself--if he knows that his horse isn't built to carry his head in the desired position but he wants to win and tells the trainer (or simply allows the trainer to do it) to do whatever it takes to win then yes, he's as much to blame as the trainer is. In that event the trainer still has responsibility in the matter too, because a trainer that cares about the horse will tell the owner that this horse simply isn't capable to going in this fashion and needs to be moved into a division more suitable to his conformation and ability.

Really, as Kim said, people should look more closely at breeding in the conformation that allows a horse to do the job they want--and they should stop trying to force a horse into something that is wrong and uncomfortable for him.

 

[ClickMini]

In this case I am talking about "positional roarers." You very rarely see this in classes other than Single Pleasure or Roadster. The horse might not even be up against the check, he has been "taught" this position and will hold it even with slack in the (short) check. You see it in MANY of the SP horses. I can say from personal experience that my horse did this when she was trained as a single horse, and when I dropped her to country, she stopped. I am around many top horses all of the time and I am an active competitor myself. This is a matter of how they are trained, pure and simple. It would be a matter of re-training OURSELVES what is beautiful. And that, to me, is not a horse going around the ring wheezing like a freight train. I know of horses that have passed out from this. It is a matter of constriction of the throat and is a postural matter. This is not a matter of dust.

 

[minigrub]

PEPPY JUICE?

Clenbuterol is structualy similart to epinephrine, salbutamol and albuteral. It's effects are more potent and longer-lasting as a stimulant and thermogenic drug. It causes an increase in aerobic capacity, central nervous system stimulation, and an increase in blood pressure and oxygen transportation. It is a bronchodilator.

You wonder why a horse can drive in Absolutly every youth, amateur, open, driving, halter, jumping class and they have the same energy as the first class... Watch a 10 year old kid give their horse drugs and tell me that is ok. Just tell the kid it is peppy juice.

 

[minigrub]

I'm not sure where you are showing that you see overuse of the whip and children giving horses 'peppy juice' (whatever that is). I do a bit of showing in TX, OK, and Nationals and Worlds and I really haven't seen a lot of abuse. There are a few people that are a bit heavy handed, but I haven't seen any real abuse on the showgrounds.

If you have been to worlds or regionals and haven't seen or heard about it then I would love to live in that bubble. I was in TX when I saw a horse go down in the shafts when a trainer turned the whip and hit the horse in the face with the handle. The drug debate has been going on for years.

 

[Annabellarose]

I would have to vote "No", as I have a mare in my pasture that "roars" when she frolicks. I have only asked her to walk on a lead from stall to pasture and pasture to stall, but I would not hesitate to drive her as my veterinarian has given me the go-ahead on her (she'll probably never get driven here though as I have far too many other horses here that I would prefer to put to first).

 

[Minimor]

I should have added in my earlier post--got thinking of this earlier and realized I hadn't included this--If I had a horse that is a roarer, or even just sounded like one in certain situations or any time when working--I would not be showing him in driving. Even if I knew that he wasn't actually having any breathing issues and was comfortable while working, even if in view of all that I was driving him at home--I would not drive him at a show. Why not? Because while I would know what was what with his breathing, anyone sitting in the stands watching that class would not know the facts about my horse, and you can bet that there would be someone sitting there watching and saying or thinking "listen to that horse, he's having trouble breathing, that's TERRIBLE" I don't figure that I would really want someone telling people later about what an awful person I am for showing that poor horse.