How would you feel if . . .

[Crabtree Farm]

How would you feel if this happened to you?

Spend the time energy and money to take a 9 year old mini (who has competed for since he was a yearling in 2000) to a first show on his way to qualify to nationals where he placed well (grand overall gelding) and was measured in at 37 inches with no complaints.

Take him to a second show two weeks later where he had his 60 day pink slip to be eligible to reshow with no remeasurement. Again he showed very well (2 grand overall and 1 reserve overall gelding champion) and would be protested in height. At the measurement he was said to be 39 inches and was told he could not show even though he placed as not only senior grand, but was not allowed to go back for Grand Overall judging.

And to follow all rules that a protest to the protest was filed and the mini was told that it had to refrain from showing until everything could be worked out. And after 8 months he was formally remeasured not over the 38 cut off measurement to loose his papers.

So how would you feel if you spend the time, money and energy to have this happen to you? And be refused to show when the mini had indeed qualified to compete at the nationals.

 

[Jill]

It wouldn't make me happy, but I can see really how it may all be "fair". I can measure the same mini several times and get different heights. Their posture effects their measurement and is of course variable from time to time. If they loose some weight, they may measure shorter. If you do anything funny to "extend" the actual mane, the measurement may change. If they have recently had their feet trimmed or if they are in need of a trim, their measurement can change. If you hold their head up higher, they will measure shorter, etc. It's so not a science and when you've got a "squeaker" in terms of measuring into a division, this kind of thing shouldn't be completely unexpected (but again, I can empathize with the disappointment / frustration involved).

 

[targetsmom]

I am afraid that this is an unfortunate example of what can happen with a breed that is based on height and measured at a somewhat arbitrary point. I am not all that surprised at this, because I have seen much smaller minis measure 2 inches more or less at different shows. Our stallion shrank from 29" to 27" in one month when he was a yearling. And I almost entered the wrong driving class at my last AMHA show because my sometimes 33 1/2" mini mare measured 32" that day (which is much closer to her real height). This is also the reason that I don't show any mini that is even close to the height limit, and I would think long and hard about this type of situation before I would turn in papers because a mini went over.

I can certainly empathize with your anger and frustration, because even though I won't show a mini that might not measure in, that in itself is frustrating and not right.

 

[LaVern]

Well, you asked how I would feel. So I would feel dumb for spending my money on showing such a tall horse. You just never know how it is going to go when you push the limits. And then I would feel bad that I had put other other exhibitors and officials in such a position.

 

[Sandee]

I'm pretty sure- no absolutely sure- that I would feel what you probably did ...really P----d Off!

I've seen horses that come "close" to the measurement and I mean that they "push" the very imagination of 34" or 38". However, I've also seen a few stewards that either couldn't or didn't give a S--- about getting the proper measurement! I too have been to shows that my horse 33" filly measured 32" and one month later measured 33 1/2". As long as they get the horse in the correct division I don't get upset but if I had a horse that was close, I'd be right up in their face about the measurement.

I actually had it go the other way. I had a horse that at least 2 people had measured over 34 so I entered him in the "b" class (even though his permanent papers read "A") then a really good steward checked him and said 34". When I was surprised he sticked him again and showed me the stick - 34" right on! Yep, who does it and where it's done and even the stick can make a difference. Is this fair? I don't know but it sure is frustrating!!!!!

 

[Reble]

Just too long to straighten something like this out. Not fair at all.

Than to find the measurement was correct to begin with, and you could have shown.

 

[~Lisa~]

Hmm I would I think be more upset if the process to prove my horses true height took 8 months.

As far as the protests that is just well par for the course when it comes to showing those that are pushing the limit

 

[Irish Hills Farm]

IMO ~ With your horse being 38" and with all the cheating that does go on with heights this was bound to happen to some one and unfortunately for you, it was you. BUT perhaps because this happened, maybe measuring will be more accurate on both the stewards part and the owner of the animal.

I would be upset that it took 8 months to straighten out. That is for sure.

 

[Crabtree Farm]

Now lets say "hypothetically"

the person who protested this mini is using the ex-handler of this mini as their witness and trainer.

And the mini has been shown in his career at by that very same person at 22 shows, under 30 judges, in 69 classes, and against 330 other horses, and who also obtained 7 measurement cards on him.

 

[Crabtree Farm]

Well, you asked how I would feel. So I would feel dumb for spending my money on showing such a tall horse. You just never know how it is going to go when you push the limits. And then I would feel bad that I had put other other exhibitors and officials in such a position.

I have no problem with taller horses. But with over 11 measurement cards under his belt for a 10 year old (and I have every one of them), isn't it odd that his measurement came into play when he beat the ex-handler's clients' horse and was 1 Grand from HOF?

 

[Miniv]

It sounds like it got down to politics and sour grapes.........

We have had to deal with it in the past. Some folks have the money to fight it. Some people just go with the flow and keep showing with other horses, if necessary. Some choose to drop out of showing.

We have dabbled with all of the above.......It's up to you how much of a fight you want to give.

 

[Minimor]

I'd be very upset if I bought a horse that had been shown that much and then he measured out, especially if the protest came from someone formerly associated with that horse....actually I'd be pretty disgusted if he got protested by his former owner/handler/trainer at all--I'd figure that no one should be selling a horse they believe to be oversized as a registered, show-able animal!! That's just not right.

Some refer to the "danger" of showing a horse that is pushing the limit for height. Without knowing the horse personally or knowing what he measured every time out I will say this--

If a horse measures an honest 37" then I don't call that pushing the limit, and I would consider him "safe" to show. When I measure a horse at home I usually get him a half inch taller than what the show stewards measure him to be--and that's with the horse stood square and "honest". So, if I get 38" I can be reasonably sure that the horse will measure in well below that 38". 38.5" for me will probably make 38" or a shade less for a steward--but if the horse were 39" for me and I knew I'd have to count on being able to stand him up just right in order for a steward to get him at 38" or less--that would sure be pushing it! I think I'd leave that horse at home--just because any horse that looks that tall is open to having someone protest him, and in a protest measurement things might not go my way...and that's when I would feel foolish if he did get protested & did measure out!

Unfortunately the way the rules work, I guess it stands to reason that if a horse does get protested and measures out at some show, he cannot show after that. If he's counter I'm guessing that he then has to be measured by some other official? That means he cannot be re-measured that same day, and until he does get re-measured & is found to be within the size limit after all, he cannot show--that too makes sense to me & is fair. I don't believe, though, that it should take 8 months to resolve the issue--that's just too long.

 

[Katiean]

I have a mare that on her permanent papers is 32". Last year she measured 31 1/4" and she really needed a hoof trim. I am wondering what she will measure when she is trimmed properly. Her height is not an issue because we do not show in a height class. I was just surprised when she measured so short. How would I feel if I got an over height? I would be upset. However, I am always measuring my taller horses so I know they are not over.

 

[as if by magic 2]

Measure to the wither !

 

[ruffian]

Just curious - why did it take 8 months to settle this?

 

[Field-of-Dreams]

If it was sour grapes from a former handler, yeah, I'd be upset.

That said, I have a gorgeous AMHA/AMHR driving mare that measures dead on 34". When she's chilled, she grows! So I don't show her in cold weather at A shows. Just to be safe.

Lucy

 

[LaVern]

Holy Cow, Seven okay cards. Who wouldn't take that as a go and an honest size. Even if this extrainer was one that brags about getting them in, he or she couldn't get away with it from seven different stewards. And that long to get it straighted out. Very upsetting.

 

[Crabtree Farm]

If it was sour grapes from a former handler, yeah, I'd be upset.
That said, I have a gorgeous AMHA/AMHR driving mare that measures dead on 34". When she's chilled, she grows! So I don't show her in cold weather at A shows. Just to be safe.

Lucy

Lucy,

I remember you and Jane and Bob cheering for him at Nationals a few years ago . . . . brings back the memories. I still hear Bob barking while they were taking the championship photos. I play the video tape every once in a while for giggles.

Tina

 

[Crabtree Farm]

I'd be very upset if I bought a horse that had been shown that much and then he measured out, especially if the protest came from someone formerly associated with that horse....actually I'd be pretty disgusted if he got protested by his former owner/handler/trainer at all--I'd figure that no one should be selling a horse they believe to be oversized as a registered, show-able animal!! That's just not right.
Some refer to the "danger" of showing a horse that is pushing the limit for height. Without knowing the horse personally or knowing what he measured every time out I will say this--

If a horse measures an honest 37" then I don't call that pushing the limit, and I would consider him "safe" to show. When I measure a horse at home I usually get him a half inch taller than what the show stewards measure him to be--and that's with the horse stood square and "honest". So, if I get 38" I can be reasonably sure that the horse will measure in well below that 38". 38.5" for me will probably make 38" or a shade less for a steward--but if the horse were 39" for me and I knew I'd have to count on being able to stand him up just right in order for a steward to get him at 38" or less--that would sure be pushing it! I think I'd leave that horse at home--just because any horse that looks that tall is open to having someone protest him, and in a protest measurement things might not go my way...and that's when I would feel foolish if he did get protested & did measure out!

Unfortunately the way the rules work, I guess it stands to reason that if a horse does get protested and measures out at some show, he cannot show after that. If he's counter I'm guessing that he then has to be measured by some other official? That means he cannot be re-measured that same day, and until he does get re-measured & is found to be within the size limit after all, he cannot show--that too makes sense to me & is fair. I don't believe, though, that it should take 8 months to resolve the issue--that's just too long.

I've owned him since 2000 and I know where he measures when he is fit, trimmed and in show condition. Even though he was put to pasture with no feet trimming for those 8 months, nor was he on any conditioning or training, fattened for the winter (a good 60+ pounds over for the cold), a cold wind chill of 20+ degrees on the day he was to be remeasured, he still did not go over 38 inches when remeasured. And he had to stand in the cold for 40 minutes while we waited for the people who protested it to be present (nobody showed up). So wouldn't that bow up his back to make him taller too?

 

[Crabtree Farm]

Holy Cow, Seven okay cards. Who wouldn't take that as a go and an honest size. Even if this extrainer was one that brags about getting them in, he or she couldn't get away with it from seven different stewards. And that long to get it straighted out. Very upsetting.

He actually has 11 measurement cards to his name.