disneyhorse
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Although the first, nicer colt would probably make me one heck of a show gelding!!!!
Andrea
Andrea
How do you pick a breed worthy colt?
- Thread starter Wings
- Start date
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Minimor
Well-Known Member
The thing is, if you buy on conformation and don't care at all about pedigree, you might come up with a nice looking colt that has a hodge podge of a pedigree, and he probably isn't going to breed true. Sure, you might get some good quality foals, but you're also likely to get some "whatever" foals. I've known many stallions like that. I agree with Leeana about the line breeding. If you get a good quality horse in terms of conformation/action/attitude/athletic ability and his pedigree shows that he has been line breed for those traits that you're admiring in him, chances are very good that he's going to breed true and produce his own quality (or better) time after time, regardless of what mares you put him to (within reason--I'm not saying that such a stallion should be crossed on mares of really mediocre quality and have the resulting foals come out super quality, but your chances of getting a decent foal from a rather average mare are much better if the stallion has his qualities firmly "set" by breeding.
Jill
Aspiring Cowgirl
With the market today, and with horses made each day, you can get: show record, pedigree, attitude / personality, and (of course) conformation all in the same package. If you can swing it, I maintain, that's your best bet! If you decide get almost what you want, you will see in short order that someone else is offering exactly what you wanted. It's not a race -- hold out until you KNOW it's the right one
Reble
Well-Known Member
I guess I am the odd one..
When I was looking for my colt and wanted to raise it up for my future stud.
I knew I wanted Pinto in my breeding program so was only looking for Homozygous for tobiano
Than needed to be small for also my breeding program found him he was only 2 days old and only
16.00 " at birth
Than when I seen his picture and asked about legs, bite etc.. I knew this guy was for me...
Of course we all want conformation, but pedigree was not the first thing on my list.
But as others have said a good horse will have some good bloodlines.. and yes, my little guy had Rowdy bloodline in his pedigree so we knew we had to test him for LWO
The test came back negative so we where find to breed him with our mares.
Here is a picture of him at 2 days old and he was not up for sale but contacted the owner and asked.
With hesitation they came back and said yes we will sell him..
and his first two foals from him. We have been happy with our selection..
AS A AMATURE BREEDER, I REALLY LOVE THESE EDUCATIONAL THREADS....
Here's another thing ya want to think about in the future as well. And also what I have learned with breeding.
Most likely no one else will ever admitt this about their program, but here's a issue that I have ran into between a breeding pair I have that I swore would be a perfect cross...
Just because you have a outstanding stallion, and a outstanding mare dose not mean the resaulting foal will be outstanding too.
I have just that but between the 2 breedings I have done with them, I love the resaulting foals but have noticed that the foals in my opinion dont make future broodmares to anyone if I was to sell them. Im sure there's a stallion that would compliment them out there BUT because the foals BOTH FILLYS where born super tiny, and one maturing out 27.75" and a little tooo refined, its hard to think that their future in the wrong breeding hands could kill them. The sire is 31.75" tall and the dam is 32" tall, so im surprised at how tiny the cross is producing. They both have that look to clean up the ring, but most folks do retire then breed so these gals only have a show career life and many folks wont even look at this type of horse when buying if thats all they can do. So just remember, even tho ya might spend some nice $$$ and put all your faith into a perfect cross, just be prepaired to reconize it if this happens and realize what ya thought would work, may not in the end. I now will not rebred that cross because I cant keep evey foal from them. I did however find another stud here in the state that has caught my eye that in the future sometime, will give that cross a go at it as I hope that will work out better for my mare. PLUS I would defentily keep the resaulting foal all to myself anyway.
Below is my 2009 jr mare who has matured at 27.75" tall and in my opinion, drop dead gorgeous, but to refind for most stallions.
Here's another thing ya want to think about in the future as well. And also what I have learned with breeding.
Most likely no one else will ever admitt this about their program, but here's a issue that I have ran into between a breeding pair I have that I swore would be a perfect cross...
Just because you have a outstanding stallion, and a outstanding mare dose not mean the resaulting foal will be outstanding too.
I have just that but between the 2 breedings I have done with them, I love the resaulting foals but have noticed that the foals in my opinion dont make future broodmares to anyone if I was to sell them. Im sure there's a stallion that would compliment them out there BUT because the foals BOTH FILLYS where born super tiny, and one maturing out 27.75" and a little tooo refined, its hard to think that their future in the wrong breeding hands could kill them. The sire is 31.75" tall and the dam is 32" tall, so im surprised at how tiny the cross is producing. They both have that look to clean up the ring, but most folks do retire then breed so these gals only have a show career life and many folks wont even look at this type of horse when buying if thats all they can do. So just remember, even tho ya might spend some nice $$$ and put all your faith into a perfect cross, just be prepaired to reconize it if this happens and realize what ya thought would work, may not in the end. I now will not rebred that cross because I cant keep evey foal from them. I did however find another stud here in the state that has caught my eye that in the future sometime, will give that cross a go at it as I hope that will work out better for my mare. PLUS I would defentily keep the resaulting foal all to myself anyway.
Below is my 2009 jr mare who has matured at 27.75" tall and in my opinion, drop dead gorgeous, but to refind for most stallions.
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Lizzie
Well-Known Member
Wings said, when opening this very interesting thread.....
'How do you select a breed worthy colt? The potential show and breeding stallion'
As others have said, I don't think the two go necessarily hand-in-hand. In showing, a horse might do extremely well under some judges, but not others. It is purely how the judge interprets how he/she thinks the breed should look and the horse on a given day.
But lets face it, most of the time we would purchase a colt for future possible breeding. While many on all-breed forums, darn those who breed for colour, I think there is nothing wrong with it. If one has a herd of mostly solid mares and wants colour, of course we would look for a stallion/colt of colour. Hopefully he might be homozygous. Some might want frame, others might not and prefer a homozygous tobiano. Some might wish to add silver or the many other colours found in the breed. Nothing wrong with breeding for colour, if everything else is in place. Of course, seeking a colt of a particular colour, will limit the the buyer somewhat. That said, in Minis, there are superb examples of the breed in every colour.
After that I think, one has to consider what one is breeding for. Do we want a very modern Araby type or a colt with more substance and bone? This lessens the possibilities even further. We must also decide what faults we abhor in the breed. If a possible purchase has everything we like, but has that thing we detest most, then we keep on looking. For me personally, it's straight rears and low tail sets, which we see so often. I want angulation. Targetsmom's Max, is the kind of colt I'd want to see. Super angulation, short back, wonderful shoulder, correct tail set, correct neck set and a pretty head. If we find such a colt who might not be for sale, we could wait and breed to him later, if the owner agrees. If not, we look to his sire and dam and wait for the next one. If none were to be available in the future, then we might consider looking into that line/pedigree, to see others out there.
I like pedigrees! I like to (hopefully) be able to see horses in the background of a colt I was considering. Is the colt linebred or inbred? If so, on what horse? What did he look like? What has he produced? If a colt is linebred/inbred on a horse I particularly like, then I'm more interested. He has the propensity to produce horses much like the horse which appears several times in his pedigree. Anything past the 4th generation, won't mean much. It's certainly those first three and maybe fourth generations, which mean the most. This is where one's knowledge of pedigrees and the horses therein, become important. And lets not forget the mares, in those up-front pedigrees. They mean as much and maybe even more, than the sire of the colt we are considering. I think I wrote this elsewhere, but will post it here if not....
For generations, breeders of all kinds of animals, have often relied upon the knowledge of the male, when considering breeding. ie. His quality, get, pedigree etc. Many in the past, bred mares of poor or iffy quality, to superior stallions, with the thought that he was bound to produce always, quality offspring. Modern thinking and knowledge however, has told us that the mare used, is just as important as the sire. In some ways, even much more important.
Genetisists tell us that the fact is, that certain qualities inherited from DNA on the x-chromosome can ONLY be inherited from a mare. So down the line, the maternal granddam, grandsire and their quality, cannot and should not, be ignored.
We all know, that very horse has 2 chromosomes that determine gender.
A mare has two X-chromosomes, therefore a female.
A stallion (XY) has one X-chromosome and one Y-chromosome, therefore a male. When a foal is conceived, if the Y-chromosome fertilizes the egg, the foal will be male (XY) because it will then have an "X" from the dam and a "Y" from the sire.
If the sperm fertilizing the egg carries the stallion's X-chromosome, the resulting foal will be female - XX.
A mare, contributes one of her two X-chromosomes to her foals, both male and female but when a stallion gives an "X" to his daughters, it is the X-chromosome he inherited from his own dam.
His sons NEVER receive his X-chromosome, because he has given them (obviously) his Y-chromosome instead. However, his sons DO receive an X-chromosome - one of the X-chromosomes contributed by their dam.
And this gets even more interesting. One of those would have been inherited via the dam's dam, and the other came down the "X-trail" from her sire's dam.
Geneticists have determined that certain genetic material is carried on the X-chromosome, including that for the large heart, and intelligence. Most probably, there are many other genes passed down on the X-chromosome, many of which we probably don't even know about at the moment.
So now, understanding that certain superior qualities can ONLY be inherited from a mare, her expressed qualities and that of the maternal granddam and grandsire suddenly become incredibly import.
Anyway, just a few personal thoughts on how one might decide upon purchasing a colt.
Lizzie
'How do you select a breed worthy colt? The potential show and breeding stallion'
As others have said, I don't think the two go necessarily hand-in-hand. In showing, a horse might do extremely well under some judges, but not others. It is purely how the judge interprets how he/she thinks the breed should look and the horse on a given day.
But lets face it, most of the time we would purchase a colt for future possible breeding. While many on all-breed forums, darn those who breed for colour, I think there is nothing wrong with it. If one has a herd of mostly solid mares and wants colour, of course we would look for a stallion/colt of colour. Hopefully he might be homozygous. Some might want frame, others might not and prefer a homozygous tobiano. Some might wish to add silver or the many other colours found in the breed. Nothing wrong with breeding for colour, if everything else is in place. Of course, seeking a colt of a particular colour, will limit the the buyer somewhat. That said, in Minis, there are superb examples of the breed in every colour.
After that I think, one has to consider what one is breeding for. Do we want a very modern Araby type or a colt with more substance and bone? This lessens the possibilities even further. We must also decide what faults we abhor in the breed. If a possible purchase has everything we like, but has that thing we detest most, then we keep on looking. For me personally, it's straight rears and low tail sets, which we see so often. I want angulation. Targetsmom's Max, is the kind of colt I'd want to see. Super angulation, short back, wonderful shoulder, correct tail set, correct neck set and a pretty head. If we find such a colt who might not be for sale, we could wait and breed to him later, if the owner agrees. If not, we look to his sire and dam and wait for the next one. If none were to be available in the future, then we might consider looking into that line/pedigree, to see others out there.
I like pedigrees! I like to (hopefully) be able to see horses in the background of a colt I was considering. Is the colt linebred or inbred? If so, on what horse? What did he look like? What has he produced? If a colt is linebred/inbred on a horse I particularly like, then I'm more interested. He has the propensity to produce horses much like the horse which appears several times in his pedigree. Anything past the 4th generation, won't mean much. It's certainly those first three and maybe fourth generations, which mean the most. This is where one's knowledge of pedigrees and the horses therein, become important. And lets not forget the mares, in those up-front pedigrees. They mean as much and maybe even more, than the sire of the colt we are considering. I think I wrote this elsewhere, but will post it here if not....
For generations, breeders of all kinds of animals, have often relied upon the knowledge of the male, when considering breeding. ie. His quality, get, pedigree etc. Many in the past, bred mares of poor or iffy quality, to superior stallions, with the thought that he was bound to produce always, quality offspring. Modern thinking and knowledge however, has told us that the mare used, is just as important as the sire. In some ways, even much more important.
Genetisists tell us that the fact is, that certain qualities inherited from DNA on the x-chromosome can ONLY be inherited from a mare. So down the line, the maternal granddam, grandsire and their quality, cannot and should not, be ignored.
We all know, that very horse has 2 chromosomes that determine gender.
A mare has two X-chromosomes, therefore a female.
A stallion (XY) has one X-chromosome and one Y-chromosome, therefore a male. When a foal is conceived, if the Y-chromosome fertilizes the egg, the foal will be male (XY) because it will then have an "X" from the dam and a "Y" from the sire.
If the sperm fertilizing the egg carries the stallion's X-chromosome, the resulting foal will be female - XX.
A mare, contributes one of her two X-chromosomes to her foals, both male and female but when a stallion gives an "X" to his daughters, it is the X-chromosome he inherited from his own dam.
His sons NEVER receive his X-chromosome, because he has given them (obviously) his Y-chromosome instead. However, his sons DO receive an X-chromosome - one of the X-chromosomes contributed by their dam.
And this gets even more interesting. One of those would have been inherited via the dam's dam, and the other came down the "X-trail" from her sire's dam.
Geneticists have determined that certain genetic material is carried on the X-chromosome, including that for the large heart, and intelligence. Most probably, there are many other genes passed down on the X-chromosome, many of which we probably don't even know about at the moment.
So now, understanding that certain superior qualities can ONLY be inherited from a mare, her expressed qualities and that of the maternal granddam and grandsire suddenly become incredibly import.
Anyway, just a few personal thoughts on how one might decide upon purchasing a colt.
Lizzie
Lewella
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"How do you select a breed worthy colt? The potential show and breeding stallion."
That's easy - LOL - I don't buy colts as stallion prospects - if I am stallion shopping I'm going to buy a mature one so I don't have to wait around to use him.
Like others I look at conformation first but pedigree (exceptional stallions come from an exceptional mares!), show record, progeny, progeny show records - that is all considered as well.
I had some pretty stringent criteria last time I was stallion shopping over and above the normal stuff that had to be met before I would even look at a stallion. I'm not a color breeder and don't advocate breeding for color but by the same token color is important to me and my number 1 requirement was that my next breeding stallion would be black based - either black or bay with black being preferred and homozygous black being the ideal. If bay he must be heterozygous for Agouti. Tobiano would be okay but not homozygous for tobiano. Since I was shopping for a Shetland stallion the second requirement was height - the stallion had to be under 42". If a stallion didn't meet these two criteria I wasn't going to buy him no matter how good he was. I had specific goals in mind that couldn't be achieved by using a red based stallion or one over 42 inches.
It took me two years of looking to find just what I wanted but I did find him! To add icing to the cake he was not only under 42" but small enough to hardship AMHR. To make it even sweeter he was a Congress Grand Champion, Pony of the Year, & HOF Modern Shetland.
That's easy - LOL - I don't buy colts as stallion prospects - if I am stallion shopping I'm going to buy a mature one so I don't have to wait around to use him.
Like others I look at conformation first but pedigree (exceptional stallions come from an exceptional mares!), show record, progeny, progeny show records - that is all considered as well.
I had some pretty stringent criteria last time I was stallion shopping over and above the normal stuff that had to be met before I would even look at a stallion. I'm not a color breeder and don't advocate breeding for color but by the same token color is important to me and my number 1 requirement was that my next breeding stallion would be black based - either black or bay with black being preferred and homozygous black being the ideal. If bay he must be heterozygous for Agouti. Tobiano would be okay but not homozygous for tobiano. Since I was shopping for a Shetland stallion the second requirement was height - the stallion had to be under 42". If a stallion didn't meet these two criteria I wasn't going to buy him no matter how good he was. I had specific goals in mind that couldn't be achieved by using a red based stallion or one over 42 inches.
It took me two years of looking to find just what I wanted but I did find him! To add icing to the cake he was not only under 42" but small enough to hardship AMHR. To make it even sweeter he was a Congress Grand Champion, Pony of the Year, & HOF Modern Shetland.
sfmini
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I have to edit this after some thought to add:
First question is, why breed in the first place? It is cheaper and much less heartbreak to buy what you are wanting and more of a guarantee to get what you are wanting right down to sex and color, and no baby or mother deaths. No hassle of keeping a stallion, no mare stare, no dystocias, no graves to dig, no waiting yet another year for that pinto filly that is a solid plain brown colt with crooked legs and an off bite.
just sayin.
I am always hesitant to buy a colt as they change so much as they grow. It can be a major crap shoot. If you buy a baby, look for siblings, parents, etc. Are they nice looking as mature horses or are they thick and drafty? Our babies look like babies, but as adults, they can still show as they are still refined. I don't care for the halter babies out there today that are winning that look so mature because they are thick and not really showing any more as adults.
The others have given great advice, decide on your goals, buy the best broodmares you can, pedigrees are important but the individual trumps all. Do you want halter horses? Driving horses? All arounders?
BUT sometimes the individual can be a dumpy little Thelwell looking thing that produces gorgeous babies like our Bond Peppy Power son (pedigree). Mike McCabe told us to hide him and just show people his babies. We haven't used him for a long time, but I have a group of mares that are going to show and then get some quality time with him in a year or so, I am really looking forward to that.
I did see a colt for sale last week that I had to be dragged away from NO MORE COLTS, but, but he is only $1,000! NO MORE COLTS. Sigh, gorgeous, but NO MORE COLTS. Ah well. Pedigree and looks, that one.
First question is, why breed in the first place? It is cheaper and much less heartbreak to buy what you are wanting and more of a guarantee to get what you are wanting right down to sex and color, and no baby or mother deaths. No hassle of keeping a stallion, no mare stare, no dystocias, no graves to dig, no waiting yet another year for that pinto filly that is a solid plain brown colt with crooked legs and an off bite.
just sayin.
I am always hesitant to buy a colt as they change so much as they grow. It can be a major crap shoot. If you buy a baby, look for siblings, parents, etc. Are they nice looking as mature horses or are they thick and drafty? Our babies look like babies, but as adults, they can still show as they are still refined. I don't care for the halter babies out there today that are winning that look so mature because they are thick and not really showing any more as adults.
The others have given great advice, decide on your goals, buy the best broodmares you can, pedigrees are important but the individual trumps all. Do you want halter horses? Driving horses? All arounders?
BUT sometimes the individual can be a dumpy little Thelwell looking thing that produces gorgeous babies like our Bond Peppy Power son (pedigree). Mike McCabe told us to hide him and just show people his babies. We haven't used him for a long time, but I have a group of mares that are going to show and then get some quality time with him in a year or so, I am really looking forward to that.
I did see a colt for sale last week that I had to be dragged away from NO MORE COLTS, but, but he is only $1,000! NO MORE COLTS. Sigh, gorgeous, but NO MORE COLTS. Ah well. Pedigree and looks, that one.
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I know that feeling! I rarely seem to fall in love with fillies but have often been dragged away from nice colts!
