How do you look for Dwarfs in Pedigree?

[runamuk]

John.....I appreciate your dedication to continued study........now if you wish to PM or email me.......I would be interested in sending you samples/photo's/pedigrees of my colt who I truly believe is a form of dwarf and his sire and dam if it will help the research along. they will be getting gelded in the spring so samples could be taken then.

there I said it outloud to the world...turtle my 25" horse in my eyes is a form of dwarf....wow I feel better.....

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

Runamuk I know you feel better and have been sort of battling with going public for a while. I respect you for that. I think until breeders can admit yes this has happened here, this is how I feel and this is my stance whatever it is- it will always be a dirty little secret.

 

[HGFarm]

THANK YOU JOHN!!

And AMEN Vertical Limit!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Arion Mgmt]

I wanted to add somethings to help people better understand a few assumptions I made. Because all of the different types of dwarfs have shown to involve dwarfs with both sexes, it is automatic that this is an autosomal recessive disease(s), no matter which type. This has been known scientifically in other dwarf diseases in other organisms. This is because dwarfism is a growth disease of the bones not related to a sex, in humans there are about 200 different types of dwarfism, and none that I know of are only sex related. Autosomal recessive diseases that are not life ending in utero are the types of diseases that pervade a breed quickly (inutero fatal diseases pervade even faster) and unknowningly due to it being recessive and when a diseased animal is born and it does not die and that is the only way to know a disease even exists, so therefore this is why a disease like dwarfism can be throughout the breed. I will say that definitely not all miniatures are carriers, people need to realize that, this is why you do not see 25% of all foals born in a year to be dwarfs, infact it is a small proportion to the total numbers born a year that are actual dwarfs. Also I know for scientific fact by statistical calculations that there are horses, only stallions, because these have had more than 100 foals, that have never had a dwarf, even when bred to carriers, calculations show though only to 99+%, because we are using statistics based on millions of possibilities of crosses.

John

 

[Mercysmom]

I am certainly not the expert that many of you seem to be, but if anyone is interested in a little "history", Husseler broke two world records for miniature sales in his heyday.  He sold for $12,500, topping the Komoko's first production sale and setting a World Record price at that time.  He was the much sought after headliner of the sale.  He later sold to NFC Farms for an unprecedented $25,000 at the time.  He is the grandsire of Glenn's General Patton and the sire of one of my mares, whose first foal sold for $50,000.  You may not like "short legged, thick necked miniatures" as some have described some of them, but they were, and still are in much demand.  If a horse is 26" tall, his legs are NOT going to be 30" long!  And YES he has sired a dwarf, or more, and has also sired some great get as well, far surpassing the lesser quality foals, I might add.
Here are some of my horses that the "dwarf police" will relish in criticizing, I am sure.  However, they are in my breeding program, and will continue to be.  And some of them have had dwarfs, and I haven't gelded them, but if you can get me to sell them, you can do it for yourself. 

For those of you interested in tiny, correct, miniatures, I welcome your questions, visits, and comments.  For those of you who prefer larger horses, congratulations; there are many of them from which you can choose.

I know that I should delete this post, but I have been urged by several friends to post to this thread.

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Tony:

I applaud your openness regarding horses that have produced or sired dwarf offspring...let me join you by saying I have one mare who has produced both very refined, balanced, offspring and dwarf offspring...and I have a mare that is a half-sister to our former stallion that sired the dwarf offspring (I did geld and sell him but retained the mares).

Dwarves may be a "dirty little secret" but I was told by a veterinarian at Cornell University that every time we as a collective unit breed miniatures, we run a 50% shot of getting a dwarf horse. I know mentioning that fact will not make me popular but in working with dwarf rabbit breeds like the Holland Lop, one needs a "normal" gene and a "dwarf" gene to get the 4 lb or under show weight and type. There are rabbits that get 2 normal genes and end up "oversized" (not registerable or showable according to the breed standard but certainly can be used as breeding stock under ARBA rules) and then there are rabbits that get 2 dwarf genes and are not viable past 1 week of age - they are called "peanuts" in the Holland Lop circle and are a sad fact of breeding this diminutive, pudgy-cheeked breed of lop eared rabbit. Their healthy, normal littermates rapidly surpass them in growth rates in a day or so. Since our dwarf horses often suffer health problems, my uneducated guess is that a similar thing must be happening in our miniatures. It is "unpredictable" and a fact in breeding Holland Lops that one will have peanuts born... unfortunately in breeding minis we invest a lot more time and money and the sad result is if there is a dwarf born, the mare's reproductive year has been financially lost and stallions' records suffer and there is one unhealthy foal to show for it all.

My mare that produced the 2 dwarf horses had a dam that was a good 37" tall and a sire that was 30" and she was a winning show horse. The stallion I owned and gelded had nationally known bloodlines and an AMHA National Reserve Champion in his pedigree. Another mare had AMHR Halter Hall of Fame and AMHA National Champion Halter bloodlines and produced a dwarf. All of their parents had NOT produced dwarf horses to my knowledge and research.

My mini farm was small to begin with and I am not sure whether I will ever breed miniatures again as having two dwarf horses in one year was a big set back - not that I do this as a business but the veterinary bills to care for dwarf horses alone can be quite expensive, plus the loss of a well-conformed breeding stallion (refined, long necked, straight legs, good bite, excellent flat topline and a good mover) was heartbreaking.

Just my humble 2 cents worth....and count me in on any research to be done - PM me if interested.

Denise

Silversong Farm

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

I will say that definitely not all miniatures are carriers, people need to realize that, this is why you do not see 25% of all foals born in a year to be dwarfs, infact it is a small proportion to the total numbers born a year that are actual dwarfs.    John

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Thanks for saying that... I know that it is an excuse a way for many to defend what theyare doing (or feel they need to defend) by using the every mini is a carrier thing JMO

I dont obviously have Sadie anymore but will help you in any way I can

 

[runamuk]

I wanted to add somethings to help people better understand a few assumptions I made.  Because all of the different types of dwarfs have shown to involve dwarfs with both sexes, it is automatic that this is an autosomal recessive disease(s), no matter which type.  This has been known scientifically in other dwarf diseases in other organisms.  This is because dwarfism is a growth disease of the bones not related to a sex, in humans there are about 200 different types of dwarfism, and none that I know of are only sex related.  Autosomal recessive diseases that are not life ending in utero are the types of diseases that pervade a breed quickly (inutero fatal diseases pervade even faster) and unknowningly due to it being recessive and when a diseased animal is born and it does not die and that is the only way to know a disease even exists, so therefore this is why a disease like dwarfism can be throughout the breed.  I will say that definitely not all miniatures are carriers, people need to realize that, this is why you do not see 25% of all foals born in a year to be dwarfs, infact it is a small proportion to the total numbers born a year that are actual dwarfs.  Also I know for scientific fact by statistical calculations that there are horses, only stallions, because these have had more than 100 foals, that have never had a dwarf, even when bred to carriers, calculations show though only to 99+%, because we are using statistics based on millions of possibilities of crosses.  John

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Actually John there is one sex related form of dwarfism that exists as a spinal issue and only has been found in men.......I can find you the info if you wish...I studied it intensely trying to find an answer for my own back and my families back issues..sadly I am a girl so that was not it..although My condition fit 90% of the profile until it said ONLY in males.

 

[runamuk]

Runamuk I know you feel better and have been sort of battling with going public for a while. I respect you for that. I think until breeders can admit yes this has happened here, this is how I feel and this is my stance whatever it is-  it will always be a dirty little secret.

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OK no more bravo to me .....I am being corrected by many...there is no way turtle is a dwarf...maybe a carrier but not a dwarf......tada here is the problem....he looks so much like so many other 26 and unders that are proclaimed not dwarfs...that I don't even know what to say here except I know he is different..whether he looks anything like any other dwarf ....I think the issue is unless it is full blown life threatening and very deformed..the pervasive attitude is still it isn't a dwarf....well I am still here saying it could very much so be like rabbits....my champion buck was a dwarf....he had to be to make weight (or lack thereof) he never produced a peanut (which is a full blown dwarf in bunnies) he did reduce size on my does......and he had an excellent conformation..wouldn't have won all those best of breeds if he hadn't......

I am just happy to see forward progress.......

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

OK no more bravo to me .....I am being corrected by many...there is no way turtle is a dwarf...maybe a carrier but not a dwarf......tada here is the problem....

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Welll I Know you have had concerns from day one with him.. and I totally understand what you see in him. I think you are right though the issue does like in what one calls a dwarf... how many charateristics does it take to make a dwarf? 1, 3, 5, 10 ? that answer will be different for everyone until there is a test to show otherwise

 

[HGFarm]

Thank you John for such informative info. VERY interesting.

 

[Firefall]

I'm just a little peon here, but I am very fascinated and willing to help with what I can................. if anything...........

I want to learn as much as possible.

Thank you John and everyone else........

 

[ClickMini]

Runamuk, I went and looked at the photos of your little Turtle, and I do not see the characteristics that I would normally expect in a dwarf. However I am in a learning mode, and am interested in hearing what your thoughts are with regard to him, what makes you say he may be a form of dwarf? He has a lovely long neck, pretty face in the photos... although legs are short in comparison to body length, they do not seem to have the typical dwarf traits either. So I am not sure what you are seeing here?

 

[Stacy Score]

John,

Your research and commentary is invaluable to many of us who are breeders - I sincerely hope that in the future we DO find a DNA link that can be traced -- HOWEVER, that said, I strongly suspect that in many, many of our pedigrees that the true parentage of the animal is not as written on the registration certificate and that it would be a crushing blow to start "identifying" an an animal as a proven carrier without legitimate PQ'd DNA to absolutely prove the parentage of said horse - that means that most of the horses born prior to 1996 and even many, many born since cannot be "trusted" to have accurate paperwork. In my humble opionion the research needs to start NOW with animals that are PQ'd accurately and then we can TRUTHFULLY weed out the true carriers while not assigning blame to those who may not be, but who show up in a horses registration paperwork. I have a mare and stallion who produced a dwarf over 10 years ago and would be very happy to provide their blood for DNA purposes, but to have THEIR parent's linked to this study would not be fair since I cannot PROVE who their sire and dam actually were. Needlesstosay, these two horses were never bred together again - both have been National Champion producers in their individual own right and none of their offspring have gone on to produce any dwarves (yet . . . )

Stacy

 

[runamuk]

I have come to my conclusion based on a lifetime of reading about human dwarfism all 200 + forms....here is a link to a concise and easy to navigate website dedicated to human dwarfismFAQ

I still believe that at a certain size all miniatures become a form of dwarf...admittedly not a popular theory at all....however where that size cut off is I have no certainty. If you read that page my grandmother by definition was a dwarf add her spinal deformity and well......on the other side of my family we have alot of not very tall people and a running family line of hereditary back degeneration at early ages in particular in a certain build......anyway that is off topic...that is where my extreme interest in studying dwarfism and its causes and its various forms comes from. I do not see dwarfism in miniatures a negative I believe it may be a very neccessary component to creating truly tiny correct horses...again a very unpopular opinion.

Runamuk, I went and looked at the photos of your little Turtle, and I do not see the characteristics that I would normally expect in a dwarf. However I am in a learning mode, and am interested in hearing what your thoughts are with regard to him, what makes you say he may be a form of dwarf? He has a lovely long neck, pretty face in the photos... although legs are short in comparison to body length, they do not seem to have the typical dwarf traits either. So I am not sure what you are seeing here?

 

[Dandy]

Runamuk: I sure don't see dwarf either. Is his bite bad? He looks fine for a horse his height. JMO

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

Runamuk I appreciate what you are trying to say.

Again I ask is it a opinion as to how many characteristics it takes till someone defines it a dwarf- to some it is simply legs being very very short compared to body , for others it is that combined with a shorter neck or extreme head, others yet wont call it a dwarf unless it has very twisted legs,

What is the right answer? it differs for everyone- I saw a picture of a friends horse a small horse 25 in or so as a 2 yr old perhaps a yearling i forget.. my first thought was this is a dwarf a bit on the long side and very short legs compared to body as well as a shorter neck- but when I explained I thought it was a dwarf in fact I was positive of it, the answer she had and believed was that it wasnt a dwarf his legs werent crooked and bite wasnt off. To me that didnt change what I saw- different for everyone

 

[shminifancier]

Yes that is true so that is why some people who at one time maybe 10 years ago maybe had a dwarf, but still continue breeding the animal because it just doesn't show up that often as a full blown dwarf.. And talking everyone of those out of the line is not the answer either as then as the books close for good you will have just a minuet amount of bloodlines to draw from. So taking every individual out is not the answer either.

Runamuk I appreciate what you are trying to say.

Again I ask is it a opinion as to how many characteristics it takes till someone defines it a dwarf- to some it is simply legs being very very short compared to body , for others it is that combined with a shorter neck or extreme head, others yet wont call it a dwarf unless it has very twisted legs,

What is the right answer? it differs for everyone- I saw a picture of a friends horse a small horse 25 in or so as a 2 yr old perhaps a yearling i forget.. my first thought was this is a dwarf a bit on the long side and very short legs compared to body as well as a shorter neck- but when I explained I thought it was a dwarf in fact I was positive of it, the answer she had and believed was that it wasn't a dwarf his legs weren't crooked and bite wasn't off. To me that didn't change what I saw- different for everyone

 

[Margaret]

Minimal expression of a dwarf (hiding the dwarf gene) can be as Lisa said, one or more of the following, so even a large head can be indicitive of the minimal expression. A full blown dwarf shows all of the chacteractics. Many of the miniatures we have today, are showing minimum expression in one way or another, some to a greater degree than others. It is up to the discretion of the individule owner to recognise this, and choose not to continue to breed those same attributes.

 

[tagalong]

HOWEVER, that said, I strongly suspect that in many, many of our pedigrees that the true parentage of the animal is not as written on the registration certificate and that it would be a crushing blow to start "identifying" an an animal as a proven carrier without legitimate PQ'd DNA to absolutely prove the parentage of said horse - that means that most of the horses born prior to 1996 and even many, many born since cannot be "trusted" to have accurate paperwork. In my humble opionion the research needs to start NOW with animals that are PQ'd accurately and then we can TRUTHFULLY weed out the true carriers while not assigning blame to those who may not be, but who show up in a horses registration paperwork.

Stacy - you are right. In the past - at some farms - many stallions ran with the mares. And as such the parentage of any foal could not be guaranteed. Or you could pick which stallion you wanted listed...

:

And with Unknown as a major contributor to many pedigrees... there will always be a hazy area. But with such a limited gene pool to draw from to start with - it does not hurt to acknowledge the obvious input - such as Tiny Tim, Lord of the Isles and others... as well as those many of us feel are more than Highly Suspect (Husseler). IMHO not suspect at all - but there you go. The gene is probably in all the early lines - Bond, Dell Tera, Komoko etc. ... and will dilute to some extent over the generations. But without testing TODAY'S stock who are PQed (and then we can go backwards to find connections)... without people being open and honest - every breeding is a gamble.

You could have the next Supreme Halter/Driving Champion... or... my little Cowboy.

 

[Robin]

Everyone interested and watching this thread needs to know a little background about John Eberth and his interest in improving the miniature horse breed and his interest in dwarfism in our miniature horse breed. In 1994 my brother John and my mom, Marianne sat down and discussed a particular breeding problem with a certain stallion we owned. As a result, our farm donated this stallion to University of Kentucky and Dr. Swerzcek (who was the head of Equine Pathology), for research on a particular breeding project he was working on at that time. The Stallion was Komokos Wee Willie that Little King Farm had purchased from Komokos Ranch along with Komokos Little King Supreme back in 1981. This donation was a major decision that had a definite financial impact on our farm at the time. Wee Willie was Reserve National Grand Champion Senior Stallion in 1985. He had produced for us, 2 National Champions and was considered a cornerstone stallion in the LKF breeding program at that time. Although Little King Farm was not breeding the number of mares then as we are now, we were still goal oriented in producing the best horses possible.

This particular stallion was presenting not only a genetic problem but also a true loss of income problem for the farm. He was siring multiple dwarfs and foals with some of these pronounced characteristics. As the breeding years went by, John and Mom, began to study and note the occurrences of dwarfs resulting in breeding Wee Willie and some of the other smaller horses with certain distinguishable characteristics (Komokos Don Juan and Komokos Apple Jack). These initial general observations sparked and set the stage for curiosity and educational interest. From Mom's breeding interests to John's later academic interest (as he later studied in undergraduate college genetics). It became a near passion to pursue the cause and occurrence of this anomaly.

Even though eliminating this horse from our breeding program did not eliminate some of the chances of producing dwarfs, it was an initial step into the understanding of this genetic problem. And it did set a pattern of occurrence and identifying characteristics in the minds of both Mom and John.

In 1976, when Little King Farm began, most of the very high priced horses were the smallest horses of the time. At the 1st Komoko Ranch Auction in Florida, the mares with dwarfs on their sides brought the highest prices along with the very very small stallions. Mom recalls that when she and dad purchased a little herd of mares from Bob Bridges of Komoko Ranch, one group of mares he had for sale under 28" were priced 3 times higher than the package they bought of mares 30" to 34". Small was considered better in that day. However, Mom felt the smaller mares did not have the proportion and look she wanted to produce and show. She felt that they had characteristics that were unusual and possibly genetically transferable.

As time went on John would collect DNA and info from any dwarf we had or he heard of. He would also collect blood from sires and dams and note the pedigree of the horse. Mom recalls how her freezer was always full of carcasses and blood that John had saved or other people had collected for him. Finally we just bought a freezer for such specimens. Mom remembers giving John $300.00 when he was in undergraduate school to buy unsundrie lab supplies that the school ( DePaw Univ.) would not provide and that John needed to research his samples etc. When John moved from his undergraduate school to UK grad school, he moved all his samples and has moved them a multitude of times since, including bodies! He has done more studying and genetic work on miniature horse dwarfs than anyone I know. In 1994 he did an internship at UC Davis under Ann Bowling and found that there was a problem because what they were calling a dwarf was not exactly what we called a dwarf. He also found that there are many different kinds/mutations of dwarfs as there are in other species. He also said that Ann was doing alot of her dwarf research on her own, due to lack of funds, and most of what she knew was in her head. Unfortunately all her research died with her before being well documented.

John's extensive work and commitment to this is a foundation to determining a way to test for certain kinds of dwarfism. He continues to be committed to this and UK and Gus Cothran* are directing him in his interest now. John has always funded this himself. He has solely put hundreds and hundreds of hours and thousands of dollars into this on his own . UK has had no current funding to help John so he is limited hopefully until now. Mom is working on a project to help the further studying of this dwarf issue and with the ultimate goal of a testing program. We as representatives of the Heritage Sale are hoping to donate a % of the gross sales at the Heritage Sale to this Program at the University of Kentucky and she would like to challenge all other miniature horse sales to do the same.

We, at LKF, are not an advocate of eliminating the miniatures that test positive for the dwarf gene from the breeding pool. That would have more of a negative effect on the breed as it is now. Entire farms and breeding programs would go out of business if you took away their main breeding stallion or majority of their mares because they carry a gene that can or cannot be passed on to future foals. A basic understanding of how genes are passed must be considered before jumping to final conclusion and elimination of these horses that carry the dwarf gene. We need to treat this genetic trait the same as the HYPP in Quarter Horses by identifying the gene/s and guide breeding programs accordingly. A horse that carries the dwarf gene may also carry traits that are so necessary for the refinement and structure of proportion and conformation for the future of the miniature horse.

We can imagine that people are afraid that their entire herd, years of work and money could be wiped out if this gene was identified and forced to be eliminated from the gene pool. It has been estimated by many experienced breeders that as many as 50-75% of minis carry this gene. If these were all eliminated - what would we breed? There would not be a large enough gene pool to substantiate the miniature horse economy and registries as they are now. It is much more benefical for all of the breeders, associations and businesses involved to learn how to live with the genetic profile these miniatures have and work within those parameters towards a common goal. In time, a gene like dwarfism can be minimalized and in long term eliminated thru genetic selection and knowledged breeding. The idea is not to scare people away, but to recognize the situation and look toward a future that is benefical for both horse and breeder.

Robin-LKF

*E. Gus Cothran

BS - North Texas State University

MS - North Texas State University

PhD - University of Oklahoma

Research - Equine Parentage Verification and Research:

Biochemical genetic relationships and evolution of the Equidae

Population structure and the maintenance of genetic variation in horse breeds

Genetic relationship of domestic horse breeds

Genetics of wild horse populations

Conservation genetics of rare breeds

Evolution of the protease inhibitor system in equids

Relationships among genetic variation and reproductive characteristics in horses

Gene mapping in the horse