How do you look for Dwarfs in Pedigree?

[Dandy]

I have tried to read through the other posting on breeding dwarves. I am relatively new to this and many have mentioned in that posting, bloodlines that have known dwarves. I saw the pic of Lord of the Isles which is way back in one of my mini's pedigree. So now I'm scared. Is there a list somewhere of these "known dwarves" that were bred? Well known, popular bloodlines keep being mentioned, but nothing specific. I know about tiny tim from previous postings. I would like to do research on mine, but don't know where to start. Not trying to start a "hooplah" just want to get some info.

 

[Margaret]

Dandy, In my opinion, the more generations between your horse and the "horse in question", on your pedigree, without incident of genetic dwarf,..the more likely your horse may have escaped the dwarf gene. In any event if you get no awnsers to this quest of yours, you may pm me, and I have a friend that has studied this subject extensively, that can help inform you.

Being educated on the subject of dwarf producers, will help one make more informed decisions, when it comes to the selection of new additions, as well as safer breeding choices.

 

[HGFarm]

I think you will just have to study old pics of horses in past pedigrees and talk to folks a lot who are familiar with some of the 'old timers' and what they looked like, etc....

 

[bevann]

I have never seen a photo, but I would almost bet that BOND BULLDOG was a dwarf.Look at a bulldog face&then look at a dwarf face.Does anybody know about him?I have had more than my share of dwarf foals&from some parents you would never even think by looking at them.

 

[Joyce]

I have been in minis since 1985 and no of no place that there is a list of dwarves.

And it does not say dwarf in any of the pedigrees either. If you talk to a lot of mini folks, they can give you names probably that they know of. It does crop up every now and then in conversation.

 

[Margo_C-T]

I have owned miniature horses since '84, interested and 'looking into' the subject for several years before that--and believe me, finding out much of ANYTHING about what horses(whether male or female)were dwarves would be next to impossible!! It has pretty much ALWAYS,in most quarters, been a 'dirty little secret', as some have called it. You are very unlikely to be able to find out much of ANYTHING that you can count on to be accurate/true, even today, about earlier times. It is my opinion that even most "old-timers" who might be 'in the know' about what horses were in reality, dwarves, or what breeders were using them for breeding, would be unlikely to share the truth with you. Added to the strong likelihood that some, if not many, of the earlier horses were NOT bred as they were registered to be-for a variety of reasons-means that being sure about who any Miniature horse's progenitors REALLY were is very uncertain, to say the least.

HGFarms' suggestion is probably your best bet; however, since there are either NO, or only very poor quality, photos available of many of the early stallions, and almost NONE of early mares(in the long-standing horsey tradition of the stallion being SOOO much more important than the mare--

), you may still not be able to make much of a judgement...sad, but true, IMO.

 

[lyn_j]

[SIZE=14pt]Bond Tiny Tim and Bond Bull Dog I would bet my whole farm were dwarves. I avoid these names at all costs.[/SIZE]

Lyn

 

[Tony]

[SIZE=14pt]Well, Lyn., send me the deed to your farm, because I saw Bond Bulldog, and he was NOT a dwarf. Thanks and Happy New Year,[/SIZE]

Tony

 

[Minimor]

One should never make assumptions based on names; there are some total misnomers out there!!

 

[kaykay]

i was just going to say no way can you tell who was a dwarf just by their name. who knows maybe mr bond had a favorite breed of dog and it was a bulldog??

 

[lyn_j]

[SIZE=14pt]I was just going by a pic I saw of him.... It is my opinion, an I kno w Tony has lots more experience than me with the tiny ones but The pic I saw of him showed a long bodied short legged horse with a big head. Not as dwarfy as Tiny Tim I grant you..... but, in my opinion still showed characteristics.[/SIZE]

Lyn

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

Well i have never even seen a pic of bond bulldog but I do think that everyone has a different definition of dwarf and what is even a minimal dwarf or a horse that has "just"charecteristics...

 

[tagalong]

I was just going by a pic I saw of him.... It is my opinion, an I kno w Tony has lots more experience than me with the tiny ones but The pic I saw of him showed a long bodied short legged horse with a big head. Not as dwarfy as Tiny Tim I grant you..... but, in my opinion still showed characteristics.Lyn

Yes - he did. Tony - you have also assured us that Komokos Little Husseler was not a dwarf. I saw him in person after he moved to Canada. His photos made him look good. VERY short on leg... wide prominent forehead and pug-nosed look... clubby feet... and a few dwarf foals that followed... uh huh. Including an aborted dwarf fetus from a yearling (then) filly of ours he was shipped LOOSE IN THE TRAILER WITH from the sale. I would say No Doubt About It - but let's settle for Highly Suspect. Of course he was not as severe an example as Tiny Tim - more minimally expressed... but we can't keep "protecting" some of these horses who are in many bloodlines... what is the point of that?? Now that we are all more aware of the problem, there is no point in NOT examining some of the bloodlines more closely. It is also not a slam on those involved with some of the less severe horses - as such things were "okay" then and many characteristics went unrecognised...

Husseler...

 

[wewindwalker]

I was just going by a pic I saw of him.... It is my opinion, an I kno w Tony has lots more experience than me with the tiny ones but The pic I saw of him showed a long bodied short legged horse with a big head. Not as dwarfy as Tiny Tim I grant you..... but, in my opinion still showed characteristics.Lyn

[SIZE=14pt]I would love to see this pic of Bond Bulldog, can you post it for us?[/SIZE]

 

[promise]

WOW! I have a Hussler grandson, and in his head shots, I always thought Hussler had a very thick neck, but didn't really think of him as a dwarf.

I know my colts sire (hussler son) is absolutely georgous and extremely well proportioned, and my little guy isn't half bad, if I may say so. I have seen lots half-siblings to my guy, and they are GEORGOUS. My boy has great legs, good confirmation, a nice head, and perfectly proportioned teeth (even my equine dentist has commented on his great teeth).

I hate to say this, and while I do question the proportions in the full body shot shown of Hussler shown above (meaning he looks a little rough, thick, and overall, not his best shot) sometimes I think alot of these "professional pics" that are done of these horses are done with smoke and mirrors. It is amazing what the correct angle and lighting can do for an animal.

I just think that there are alot of horses that could be in question when they not clipped, and spit shined.

Just a personal comment. I totaly agree with the view point, the more you are aware of a horses unfavorable traits, the more likely you are to either not breed them or breed them with a horse that will improve the breed as a whole.

It is unfortunate that I have seen several horses at sales this past year, that were proclaimed dwarfs, go for higher money than correct minis, just goes to show you, there are people that are not moving forward, but are still holding the breed back.

And as aweful as it sounds, I am sure that they are fudging R papers, being that there aren't any DNA requirements.

Promise

 

[tagalong]

Here is a different picture of Husseler - he looks better here... but in person he looked coarser - and built more like the other pic.... JMHO remember - but my first impression of him was.... oh my. He was trotting awkwardly in the paddock being all studly (all 26.5" of him) - and well - I liked his colour - dun. He was 19 when I saw him first. And 20 the next couple of times.

 

[Michelle@wescofarms]

Here is a photo of Bond Bulldog from I believe 1992 at the Bond sale. He was born 1969ish so in his 20's in this photo. (I can't get it to post here - sorry)

Bond Bulldog

I don't see dwarf in this photo, but I didn't see him in person either. He looks like an old style mini to me. As for Husseler, I never saw him in person either. As for coarseness - I'm sorry we all get a bit rough around the edges as we age.

As for researching and educating yourself on dwarfism - that is wonderful and really necessary as is learning about any of the many quirks and isses with minis - reactions to Moxidectin and Bute, stifle problems, etc. But please keep in mind that a dwarf many generations in the past shouldn't be as bit of concern as the conformation of the recent three, four or five generations.

 

[Tony]

I am certainly not the expert that many of you seem to be, but if anyone is interested in a little "history", Husseler broke two world records for miniature sales in his heyday. He sold for $12,500, topping the Komoko's first production sale and setting a World Record price at that time. He was the much sought after headliner of the sale. He later sold to NFC Farms for an unprecedented $25,000 at the time. He is the grandsire of Glenn's General Patton and the sire of one of my mares, whose first foal sold for $50,000. You may not like "short legged, thick necked miniatures" as some have described some of them, but they were, and still are in much demand. If a horse is 26" tall, his legs are NOT going to be 30" long! And YES he has sired a dwarf, or more, and has also sired some great get as well, far surpassing the lesser quality foals, I might add.

Here are some of my horses that the "dwarf police" will relish in criticizing, I am sure. However, they are in my breeding program, and will continue to be. And some of them have had dwarfs, and I haven't gelded them, but if you can get me to sell them, you can do it for yourself.

For those of you interested in tiny, correct, miniatures, I welcome your questions, visits, and comments. For those of you who prefer larger horses, congratulations; there are many of them from which you can choose.

Little America's 007 Rowdy Tornado 27"

Little America's Orion Mr It 28.5"

Little America Silver Tornado 26"

Little America's Sterling Fantastic 27.75"

Melton's Tornado's Whirling Thunder 28.5"

Little America's Too Incredible 25.75"

And I could post sixty or so mares that you wouldn't like, too.

I know that I should delete this post, but I have been urged by several friends to post to this thread.

 

[Tony]

Main Entry: 1dwarf

Pronunciation: 'dwo(&)rf

Function: noun

Inflected Form: plural dwarfs /'dwo(&)rfs/ also dwarves /'dwo(&)rvz/

often attributive 1 : a person of unusually small stature; especially : one whose bodily proportions are abnormal

2 : an animal much below normal size

Source: Merriam-Webster's Medical Dictionary, © 2002 Merriam-Webster, Inc.

Well, according to Webster, guess ALL animals miniature could be considered dwarf, but that is not the definition AMHA uses for determination of disqualification.. Click to read article.

 

[horsehug]

Tony,

Your tiny horses are BEAUTIFUL!

And they do NOT look like dwarfs!

You know I love that picture of your Orion son, Mr It, and sire to my Partytime!

And what an INCREDIBLE picture of Too incredible that I had not seen before!! He is ADORABLE and SO correct looking for 25.75"......... WOW!!!

And I so much agree with you that we should not only take into consideration if dwarfs are born but also if the horse produces

great get as well, far surpassing the lesser quality foals, I might add.

before gelding or taking it out of our breeding programs, since they are ALSO contributing to the Betterment of the breed.

Susan O.