How do you look for Dwarfs in Pedigree?

[kaykay]

the thing is lisa we cant keep waiting for the registry to do it. Its just not going to happen anytime soon if we wait on AMHA AMHR. if we as breeders really want this done we have to take the bull by the horns and do it without the registries.

If we could get John Eberth to set up a fund to donate to i would absolutely trust him to use the money. Heck he could even set up a board to oversee it but then you are really complicating things. The easiest quickest way to get this research ahead would be to have him set up a fund at a bank and anyone interested can donate to it.

My suggestion would be for someone who knows John Eberth to contact him and find out the following:

How much money is needed

If we can raise enough money what is the time frame?

Is he still working with the University of Kentucky?

etc etc

 

[HGFarm]

Many very excellent points here.

I think some folks are assuming though, and that some are confusing 'tiny' and 'dwarfy' as all one. Not so. However, dwarfs are noted for not growing very big, as in people with the gene. So they are all pretty much considered 'tiny'. There are two distinct groups- small horses that exhibit dwarf genes, and small horses that do not. Tiny does NOT mean it is being lumped into the 'dwarf' category.

I personally, prefer the larger size for other reasons. I like to drive, and I personally dont find very many tiny ones that have the strength or movement than one a little bigger will have- that I desire. Not saying there are not exceptions in the movement department, but I am saying as a general thing that I have noticed.

Please dont get confused that folks are lumping TINY ones in with dwarfy ones. They are just saying that folks are more concerned about correct conformation than size at this point, which is as it should be, to me.

 

[horsehug]

John Eberth's website is http://www.doubledestiny.com

But he is incredibly busy and might take a while to get back to you.

Anyone who can make it to the AMHA National Meeting next month could talk to him there.

He co-chairs the AMHA Genetics Committee, so he will for sure be there.

Susan O.

 

[Arion Mgmt]

Well hello,

This has been another interesting and somewhat entertaining thread about dwarfism in our minis. I learned through the grapevine that my name was involved so I thought it would be good to help in any way I can and I am interested in everyones input and interests. To answer some of the questions posed somewhat towards me, I feel it is prudent of me to show you how much this means to me. I have been doing my research off and on since 1993, due to money, time or life restraints I have not as much done as I would have liked by now but I am recently getting more unidirectional in my quest. I will try to answer some questions as short and simple as possible, this subject is quite involved genetically so I will try not to make it complicated when I am answering some of these questions posed.

There is not a "list" per se of dwarfs or dwarf producers. That being said I have witnessed dwarfs from ALL pedigrees. The problem is that it is showing classic statistical numbers as a autosomal recessive disease gene that involves BOTH parents of a dwarf foal. Autosomal means it is not sex linked, meaning there are colts and filly dwarfs. If two non dwarf characteristic parents are carriers of the diseased gene, they have a 25% chance of producing a dwarf foal everytime they concieve a pregnancy. THere are also multiple types within our breed which could mean that each type is a differnet type of dwarfism involving a different gene. In fact there is a new one now that I have seen and have samples, it is unlike ANY seen before. I will be discussing this at the Natl. meeting, yes I am co-chair of the genetics committe and Tony I need your help on this. There is one type that is most prevalent, it looks very similar to the dwarfism that was seen in the angus and hereford cattle breeds years ago. Having multiple types has tremendously slowed the process because blood samples that have been sent to labs without pictures does not help, because the lab does not know what it loks like and if it is the same as other samples, for that matter I have the largest collection of dwarf DNA of many dwarfs that I know of that display the same traits in the country. I also collect any dwarf sample I can to try to track the differnet types. The only way these samples are worth using in research is to have the whole body, or blood from the dwarf and pics AND blood and pics from the parents. It is very hard for people to understand the reasons why the pics and blood from the parents are needed, it is also ideal to get the pedigrees on the dwarfs or parents so it would make it possible to trace the inheritance of the gene(s) if and when it is found. These "political issues" is what have made it hard for me or any lab to get anywhere with this research. THe only reason I have an extensive collection is because of my being within the industry, and the ability to get samples and know the "who what and when" of the parents of the dwarf from my knowledge of the breed.

There is an account set up at UK and at Texas A&M, I am at UK and Gus Cothran, my advisor is moving to Texas A&M, I am waiting on the address info to give to everyone interested in donating money or samples for the research. It will be available shortly, and yes they are university accounts that will be specifically earmarked for this research that are controlled by research committees NOT ME.

Also Susan (horsehug) I will email soon about what I have been doing on the digital xrays of the dwarfs but it will all be spelled out at the Natl. meeting in my committee meeting.

John Eberth

 

[Frankie]

Thanks John for your time and explanation, knowledge.

It is very much appreciated.

Carolyn

 

[user 488]

Thanks John. I really hope people actually take the time to REALLY READ what you posted.

Carol

 

[horsehug]

Thanks John,

for sharing your info on the Forum. I have always appreciated you sharing your knowledge on this with me.

I'll be sure to contribute what I can also to the fund when you give us the address.

Susan O.

 

[Songcatcher]

Thanks also and one more question to John. Does this mean that AMHA may actually become involved in and financially support the research?

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

Is this the same person that was working (not you John I mean who you are working with) at one university and had to move to a different one?

I did send all my samples including blood and tons of pictures of our Dwarf and her sire and dam to a university - I know a few others here did as well. I am hoping somehow they are all connected to what you are discussing.

 

[Tony]

Thanks John for chiming in. I had started a couple of other posts, then decided to not post again on this thread.

 

[horsehug]

Lisa,

I am pretty sure that place was in Colorado and was a study by the Shriners possibly?

I remember that you and Tony and I all sent blood and pictures and a few other people did too, but not a huge number for sure. It seems we were emailed that they never got enough to study or something like that.

It was not Gus Cothran or UK or Texas A&M.

Susan O.

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

I dont remember susan but yes that could be right I just remember they were moving to a different university and that was the last I heard from them :-(

 

[angelridge]

Wow! What an interesting and informative thread! I do not post much, but this has prompted me to put in my 2 cents worth.

I do think that research is important so we can have the choice NOT to breed together two dwarf gene carrying adults, just like the LWO gene.

What about even tacking on $1 per class in every horse show to go towards dwarf gene research? It would really ad up by the end of the year, as long as it wasnt "gouged" to badly for "office or handling" fees.

Angie

 

[littlearab]

YES!!

So glad to see we are getting some where at least thinking about it.

I think that adding a small fee the show classes to help fund research is a very good idea!

I would have no problem with that at all.

Or even if a small fee were added to the cost of registering a foal would also work. Then the breeders are helping to pay for much this needed resreach.

 

[Margo_C-T]

This is the most heartening news I have heard in quite awhile(John Eberth's post). A question - John, would a complete pedigree and history, but without blood and other samples, be of any help in research? My dwarf was foaled around 10 years ago, and was euthanized at several months of age; I gave away both her parents to a program that works with youngsters; they are no longer available, to me at least, for blood sampling, etc. I *think* I might still have photos-I know I have one or two of the foal. I would be happy to compile and send the written and pictorial information and send it to you for entry into the research database, if it would be of any help.

I was not surprised to read that it was looking as if it may indeed be a gene contributed by each parent--if only because so much of genetic inheritance seems to work that exact way. Again, as I in my earlier post, and since then, others have alluded to-with a proper test, it should be entirely possible to MANAGE breeding so that actual genetic dwarves are not produced-in the manner that HYPP and CIDS are being "MANAGED" in the breeds where they occur(believe me, the QH organization drug their feet, big time, before finally dealing with it--but at least, they FINALLY did-and if memory serves, the annnouncement came at a nat'l. convention held right here in NM). KNOWLEDGE and EDUCATION, as Carol and others have pointed out, IS the key to dealing with this! It would NOT necessarily require that a high percentage of animals be totally removed from the gene pool-which is one of the 'bugaboos' often cited...

For now, and until there IS a definitive test developed, I would STILL remove from breeding, ANY stallion who has sired even a single dwarf-if only for the reason that a stallion has the potential to 'spread' the carriers much more widely through the breed than ANY mare.(When talking of stallions that sired several dwarves, , or several in one season, people should realize that this does NOT mean that horse is any more likely to produce more dwarves than the horse that has sired ONE---statistical probability ISN'T exact-it's like tossing a coin, with the statistical probability that it will land heads up, 50% of the time, and tails up, 50% of the time. The larger the sample, the more likely it is that what actually occurs will come closer to matching the statistical probability--but the fact that it doesn't does not change the probability. )I really don't think most people are aware of this.

In one of the earlier discussions on this subject, I stated that I would be donating if and when a viable research project were ever a reality. You can believe that I will do just that, to the limits I am able, when John Eberth notifies us of when and where we can send it. I must add, though, that I strongly feel that this research SHOULD BE the province of the breed registries-who might try cooperating(for ONCE!)on this VERY important subject as a service to both the horses AND the members....but, dream on, right??

BTW, tagalong-you'll notice that I didn't jump on you for your post! I agree with those who have said that the past cannot be changed; however, I think the future of the breed is better served by being able to honestly and seriously examine what was, and what went on, in the past(and for that matter, the present-but, that's for another thread!). I WAS around when the horse in question sold for the "big money"--those were what I call the 'glory days', when LOTS of horses were being sold for inflated prices,IMO. If I had HAD that kind of money to spend, I can assure you that it wouldn't have been on that particular horse! I have a LOT of years of experience in the evaluation of conformation-and that would not have suited what I want to see in a horse of ANY size.

I have to ask-how, and why, was Dr. Bowling's research on dwarfism in miniature horses, LOST? What a travesty--did NO ONE think to retrieve it?

(Edited because I also meant to include: a HUGE "YES!" to Ruff n Tuff's observation that THIS research should be up front; let AI and embryo transplant wait!! Hear, hear!!!!!!!!!!!! I have recently been seeing op/eds about how embryo transplant in QHs is having its downside(surprise, surprise, surprise!!)-and BTW, consider the potential to create CARRIERS through such technologies... For the ultimate good of the breed--FIRST THINGS FIRST, for common sense' sake!!!)

 

[tagalong]

Thank you Margot C-T.... I feel like the villain in this thread. Imagine that - for expressing my genuine concern. I saw Husseler. I know what I saw. I am also - alas - apparently too stupid to differentiate between "little" and "dwarf".

I know the difference. Most of us do.

And when we trace the genetics, history IS important. It should not be swept under the carpet as we look the other way. Again. And again.

John - [SIZE=21pt]THANK YOU[/SIZE]. I hope this project comes together and proceeds. ANY breeder who does NOT get behind it 100% is not working to improve the Miniature Horse in any way, shape or form. But then... money talks, in this as in all things...

 

[Dandy]

Well, this has really proven to be very interesting and informational. So....from what John has stated he has seen dwarfism in all pedigrees. As I am just really starting out, this whole issue was "frightning" to me, especially when I looked back and saw "Hussler" and "Lord of the Isles" in some of my pedigrees. They were several generations back, however. These horses I have all have registered foals so I can only go on the information I have until they produce a dwarf. Thanks for everyone's response.

 

[user 488]

I am also not surprised that it may indeed be a gene contributed by both parents.

But I have never responded either way as I don't know. Posting what you "think" causes dwarfism without any basis for you reasons is totally non productive. Discussion is always good but when you have no basis for what you are saying it is better to say nothing.

Again, as I in my earlier post, and since then, others have alluded to-with a proper test, it should be entirely possible to MANAGE breeding so that actual genetic dwarves are not produced-in the manner that HYPP and CIDS are being "MANAGED" in the breeds where they occur

That is what it is all about......management. It's just not going to disappear. Again KNOWLEDGE AND EDUCATION. And not from just people that show.....from every single person who has a thought of breeding a miniature horse.

For now, and until there IS a definitive test  developed, I would STILL remove from breeding, ANY stallion who has sired even a single dwarf-if only for the reason that a stallion has the potential to 'spread' the carriers much more widely through the breed than ANY mare.(

Well, that certainly would help, but I know too many people out there that just have $$$$$$$$$ on theirs minds and to be quite honest, just don't give a darn.

I am totally amazed at the "stupid" reasons for breeding these horses over and over. And unfortunately the offspring get sold to unsuspecting individuals who just perpetuate the problem. Total dishonesty and lack of integrity on the breeders part.

And, I know this won't be popular, but there is also too much ignorance and people thinking this has got nothing to do with them. This concerns everyone. And if you don't think it does than you need to get out of the business. Infact I am sure the majority won't even take the time to read this thread.......doesn't concern them.

IMHO EVERY SINGLE PERSON who owns or breeds a miniature horse should have equal responsibility for seeing that this gets proper funding.

ANY breeder who does NOT get behind it 100% is not working to improve the Miniature Horse in any way, shape or form. But then... money talks, in this as in all things...

 

[slaneyrose]

Hear Hear!!!!!!!

 

[kaykay]

John

Im so glad you came and posted! I was going to email you but I was afraid since you have no idea who I am you would think I was crazy.

Okay for everyone who has wanted this research done so we can develop a test here is finally your chance to do something positive to make it happen!!

Once we have the address to donate to I will gladly have this put on the CMHR website. And I urge every breeder to also put it on their site. If we all get behind this we can get it done.

Kay