HOW BIG A PERCENTAGE OF COLTS ARE BETTER THAN THERE SIRES?

[shane]

well my stallion is having his first anticapated foal with my mare fancy, the thing is, if it is a colt im going to geld one of them as the foal is a keeper...

I was going to wait a year and see how the foal looks, but IF it was a colt, im curious what percentage of sons are better than there sires?

obviously the dam ALSO comes into play, she compliments him alot imo

but this is just a general question out of curiosity....thanks guys

 

[CLC Stables]

It is very rare to find a stallion that can produce better than himself, In My Opinion.

And since 99.9% of the stallions breeding in this world (not mini only) should be geldings, I feel about .1% of the offspring PERIOD are breeding quality to a PERFECTION standard.

I know everyone will say well each has their own opinion on what they like, blah blah blah.

Putting all that aside, if you were to breed to the EXACT standard of perfection, there would not be many horses in ANY breed that could hold up.

I LOVE how they do it in other countries with the Stallion Tests. I think the United States should adopt that philosophy.

 

[Reble]

It is very rare to find a stallion that can produce better than himself, In My Opinion.

I have to disagree there, if I breed my stallion to a better mare than who he came from, you are going to get a better offspring.

:

Sorry do not know the percentage!

 

[CLC Stables]

Show me exact proof of that.................you can't say you will because you won't. There is a chance YES, but the probability of NOT improving is probably greater.

 

[lyn_j]

There are very few even top stallions that produce better than they are..... some heavly line bred can produce themselve or their sires....but I agree with Rob..... most stallions being used probably should be geldings.

Lyn

 

[miniwhinny]

Show me exact proof of that.................you can't say you will because you won't. There is a chance YES, but the probability of NOT improving is probably greater.

Respectaby disagree. There are breeders in all species improving their species. If an animal could never improve on itself (no matter how fine it already is) then we'd be looking at the dead end of types. Let me give you an example...TB's. If a TB sire could never improve himself in his offspring then we'd still be looking at TB horses with the type they had 100 years ago and not going on to better and better stock resulting in horses like Barbaro etc. Same in the dog world. Why would people even bother to breed and show if no animal could improve on itself. If you look at mini's and the mini's that were on the top 20 years ago there are very few that even come close to todays average mini.

If you breed a top quality stallion with the bloodlines to back him up to a top quality mare with the bloodlines to back her up you have every chance in the world of producing better offspring.

 

[CLC Stables]

"If you breed a top quality stallion with the bloodlines to back him up to a top quality mare with the bloodlines to back her up you have every chance in the world of producing better offspring.

"

How many people truly take this into account???????? Not many. They feel the horse is CUTE, and they don't breed their mare to the best they can, they breed to what is available. Or they want the experience of a foal.

Also since I have TB's and QH's, and we are heavily involved in the racing world, we see that there are few RACE stallions that can produce the same as themselves. The mare lines in the Race world are more emphasized than the stallions, for the very reason, that stallions are not extremely prepotent.

You will find many collegiate level, and higher thesis on the NON-prepotency of stallions, VERY FEW.

 

[countrycharm]

i had a wee stallion that i started out in the mini world with ...

he was by samis figure de banana (imported into New zealand) and out of a hardshipped pony mare here in new zealand, he was a beautiful natured boy and the BEST

: horse i have ever owned, he managed to improve on his off spring he was on the chunky side with a squarer head and a little plain but with putting him to my leggy and dished head (orion) mares he managed to produce miniatures that were superior to him and did well in the show ring, i gelded him (which killed me but i wont sell a horse entire) and decided on a different path as i lernt as do i think alot of people when first starting out with minis

but his daughters are amazing hardly had any colts but they are beautiful to, i would be proud to see them in the show ring today and they can easily go out there and compete with whats in the ring, now we arnt talking about thousand of $$$$$$$ here with these horses but its certainly an example of a stallion improving ones self they have even gone supreme which he never managed to

this wasnt every foal but i would say 25% were better than he was 25% same quality and 50% i would say would be less quality than him

its funny how you can do the same breeding every year which i did for 3 years with 2 mares and same stallion and every foal was TOTALLY different colour shape height everything

 

[rabbitsfizz]

Rabbit has been actively breeding for 24 years.

I have lost track long ago of the number of foals he has had- well over 200, I do know that.

In that time he has bred THREE colts I have left entire.

I know I am VERY picky but, basically, you have to be.

And I am afraid that breeding better than the sire is not good enough for me, either.

The Sire has to be extra good in the first place as well.

Of course breeding better than either parent is always the goal, but you have to start off with good sound stock in the first place, otherwise you will be breeding stock that is better, but so what??

I know this sounds harsh, but when starting down the road of breeding, self criticism is a good place to start.

Barn blind is not.

 

[Jill]

"If you breed a top quality stallion with the bloodlines to back him up to a top quality mare with the bloodlines to back her up you have every chance in the world of producing better offspring.

"

How many people truly take this into account???????? Not many. They feel the horse is CUTE, and they don't breed their mare to the best they can, they breed to what is available. Or they want the experience of a foal.

I really agree with what Rob says here. So many people just see cute or color and don't take breeding very seriously in my opinion. Plus, look at all the pet quality mares that are bred. Not enough miniature people learn how to really evaluate THEIR horses before reproducing them.

 

[kaykay]

i think the percentage is very low. Breeding is just not as easy as pairing up a nice stallion with a nice mare. Even breeding best to best sometimes gets you mediocre. I think some of the problem is some people think that just because a stallion is such and such bloodline, or won such and such that is a quarantee of fabulous foals. Sure wish it was that easy. I have seen a lot of stallion heavily promoted and winning and then you never hear about them again. Usually because they just couldnt reproduce in the breeding shed nearly as good as themselves.

Ive always said the mark of a great stallion or mare is not their show record its their offspring record. Truly great stallions/mares consistently throw as good or better then themselves. this is why I am more impressed with superior sire or dam awards then actual indiviual show records.

So far we have gelded every colt we have produced. Its a quest for me

Every year I hope this will be the year that we produce what i will call a stallion. And I think the ones we have gelded have been very nice colts.

Dandy gelded at 3 months

Cody soon to be gelded for new owners

 

[spazkat]

The mare lines in the Race world are more emphasized than the stallions, for the very reason, that stallions are not extremely prepotent.

This is also done with Arabians... there is argument that often the tail female line will be a better indicator of what you are going to produce than the stallion the mare is bred to.

That said- the probability that a stallion will produce better them himself increases as the quality of the stallion in question decreases. There's just more room for improvement. With a truly high quality individual the I'd imagine the proportion is relatively small. With minis you see a foal turn out better than his sire more often primarily because there are so many stallions used for breeding that are less than ideal candidates to begin with.

 

[Erica]

That said- the probability that a stallion will produce better them himself increases as the quality of the stallion in question decreases. There's just more room for improvement. With a truly high quality individual the I'd imagine the proportion is relatively small. With minis you see a foal turn out better than his sire more often primarily because there are so many stallions used for breeding that are less than ideal candidates to begin with.

:aktion033: Yep I agree.....so many stallions are just so-so that their foals have a good shot at being better than them.

But if you have a REALLY nice stallion that you are using, then with that indiviual I am Very happy to have him CONSISTENTLY produce himself, as well as getting those few that are beyond what you expected.

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

I think Rob is right on in his answer.

I mean really if you have a stallion who is producing better them himself.. why not geld the stallion and use one of the offspring??

 

[shane]

Lisa thats exactly what I'm thinking

:

because if we take the line of a stallion cannot produce better than himself, does that mean that Buckaroos father was a better horse than him?

i will not hesitate to geld my stallion if his offspring is better, i feel that my stallion has a short neck,and a small hip, i have bred him to a mare that has a good hip and a good neck and fantastic straight legs, so IMO its a good match, but if she has a colt and he isn't very good conformation wise, i will not hesitate to geld both, I'm so sick of seeing stallions being kept entire just because of the stud fee or the mares they can get in foal

I'm not a breeder, i have two minis that i keep for the joy of showing,i respect all the breeders on here that have a the same attitude as Kay

:

 

[TMR]

I believe over the years there must have been many colts that have been better than the sires, or the breed would not have come so far in refinement, conformation, and over all appearence. Look at how far we have come in the last 15 years. Yes, much of it is breeding the right crosses, however since I have yet to see the perfect horse, you are constantly striving to produce the best which means better than the sire. I myself have two stallions, both of which I purchased on what they had produced previously and the consistency of the offspring in the showring, as this far exceeds to me what they look like themselves or can do in the showring. I am not saying you totally overlook how they are built but if they have proven themselves consistently, bettering themselves in their foals then that is how you breed a better horse. Keeping back the top colt and trying him when he gets to age, but I as many have seen many a national champion not produce themselves. As said previously, it is sometimes not the direct parent, but the bloodlines that have the ability to produce better colts. I was told years back by someone I have seen do very well in breeding that they put more weight on the grandparents on what will be produced that the parents.

I hope this made some sense.

I am sorry for rambling, too much mare stare and not enough sleep. :new_shocked:

 

[Minimor]

I mean really if you have a stallion who is producing better them himself.. why not geld the stallion and use one of the offspring??

I would guess my answer to that question would be--first, if the stallion is producing better than himself then that means he is a good sire (I'm saying this on the assumption that he's a good individual himself, and his offspring are quality foals, not just an improvement over a mediocre stallion!) and worthy of being used for breeding. I wouldn't geld him & use one of his offspring until I made sure that particular offspring was also a good sire. The offspring may be better built, prettier and better moving, but as a breeding animal--can he pass on his own quality...or better?

I have to question—you all talk about a stallion siring foals better than himself when he is bred to top quality mares. How do you know that the stallion is producing better than himself? Perhaps it is the mares that are improving on the foals, and really isn’t the stallion at all? There are stallions that have been bred to average mares and sired nothing better than average foals. Then these same stallions get bred to some top quality mares and the resulting foals are outstanding. Suddenly the stallion is an outstanding sire. Is he really?? Or was it really the mares that produced the outstanding foals???

Now if you can take your stallion and breed him to some poorer quality mares and still come up with foals that are in the stallion’s image—then I would for sure say that you have a good sire, one that can produce at least as good as himself, no matter what quality the mare is.

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

I mean really if you have a stallion who is producing better them himself.. why not geld the stallion and use one of the offspring??

I would guess my answer to that question would be--first, if the stallion is producing better than himself then that means he is a good sire (I'm saying this on the assumption that he's a good individual himself, and his offspring are quality foals, not just an improvement over a mediocre stallion!) and worthy of being used for breeding. I wouldn't geld him & use one of his offspring until I made sure that particular offspring was also a good sire. The offspring may be better built, prettier and better moving, but as a breeding animal--can he pass on his own quality...or better?

While I agree.. Isnt a stallions offspring being able to produce better then themselves part of having a colt that is better then its sire? To me that is a HUGE key in a stallion - passing prepotency of quality traits on.

If the offspring can not do this then IMO they are NOT better then the sire and in that case a huge percentage should be gelded

 

[MiniaturePrincess429]

I mean really if you have a stallion who is producing better them himself.. why not geld the stallion and use one of the offspring??

I would guess my answer to that question would be--first, if the stallion is producing better than himself then that means he is a good sire (I'm saying this on the assumption that he's a good individual himself, and his offspring are quality foals, not just an improvement over a mediocre stallion!) and worthy of being used for breeding. I wouldn't geld him & use one of his offspring until I made sure that particular offspring was also a good sire. The offspring may be better built, prettier and better moving, but as a breeding animal--can he pass on his own quality...or better?

While I agree.. Isnt a stallions offspring being able to produce better then themselves part of having a colt that is better then its sire? To me that is a HUGE key in a stallion - passing prepotency of quality traits on.

If the offspring can not do this then IMO they are NOT better then the sire and in that case a huge percentage should be gelded

i think what they were trying to say was, don't geld the sire until you know that the resulting, seemingly superior foal has bred mares and passed on desireable/ prepotent traits as well.