Horse conformation discussion

[kaykay]

I just have to get this off my chest. And I want us all to be able to discuss this without any heated arguments

Surely everyone has noticed now that when someone asks for a critique very few people respond. I quit doing them a couple years back. Just wasnt worth the flames. Now lyn and carol have stopped. Poor Carol has just about stopped posting all together. That is a huge loss to all of his as she does have the knowledge to be very helpful to all of us.

Im going to start out saying like I always do there is no perfect horse and every horse has faults

I see a dangerous trend on here and that is making excuses for poor conformation. It scares me. If you are breeding horses you must know what faults are and which ones are more acceptable then others. We cannot keep making up excuses for horses that have obvious faults.

So many times you hear "its the trimming" "the horse doesnt feel good" "the horse wasnt raised right" etc etc. I do agree that sometimes poor trimming can make a fault worse but most are just conformation faults pure and simple

For example club foot. Will trimming make it better? Yes. Will it make it go away. No. Is it inherited? IMO and most others YES IT IS. Another big one in miniatures is locking stifle (upward fixation of the patella) Its getting so rampant that its scarey. AGain people tend to make excuses of why a horse has this fault such as they had an injury, they werent fed right before i got them, etc etc. I have seen generation after generation with locking stifle. If you think it isnt inherited you are making a huge mistake. And the thing is the horse is the one paying for our mistakes.

Ive said it before and Ill keep saying it. HOrses without glaring faults live longer, healthier pain free lives verses those that are poorly conformed. I have a rescue here now that has HUGE leg faults. NOw that shes older she is in a lot of pain. I suspect she will be very hard to adopt out as no one seems to want a crooked legged mare limping around the pasture. I have told her shes welcome to stay here as long as needed

Even breeding national champion to national champion sometimes gets you pet quality. we have to try our best not to keep breeding these bigger faults back in.

 

[Leeana]

That was very interesting to read and i agree with it almost 100%. I think most of the miniature horse world is filled with responsible breeders and owners. What scares me is, there will always be people who are out to make a buck or two. For example, this week at the fair a lady who was stalled down the row from us had 2 miniature horses for sale. She started talking to us and we hung around while some other people asked about the two miniatures she had for sale. First horse was a black yearling stud colt, she told the family the horse will be sound to breed and will through beautiful babies. NOW, this lady has shown AQHA quarter horses her whole life and does AQHA Congress yearly .....she must know something about confirmation. What the family was wanting to do was buy the weanling filly she had for sale and the yearling stud colt :no:. When she walked the colt out of its stall i saw sickle hock and it toed our really bad in the back. I'm no expert in any way but she tried to set him up multiple times and he toes out really bad and his poor legs . I know she is a really nice lady but i knew immediatly that she was taking advantage of a person who knows nothing about confirmation. Then that person thinks that is acceptable for the horse to look like that.

I think that Miniatures have come very very far since the breed started but its things like this that keep the breed from bettering. What we have today is amazing but it could keep getting better. I trust so many breeders and we have so many good honest ones and i think this forum is filled with them.

Even the bigtime breeders or farms have horses advertized as pet quality if you pay attention and that horse can have the same bloodlines as there bigtime show horse. Bloodlines are great but i dont think buying a horse for bloodlines only is really the best way to go. Bloodlines can play a part but i dont think you can judge a horse by its pedigree. JMO

Okay, guess i got something off my chest to :lol:

 

[RAPfrosty]

I think one of the main reasons for this is because miniatures are so addicting and because they are less intimidating, people jump right into breeding them. Someone that wouldn't even think twice at breeding a full sized horse because they have no idea what they are doing, will want to jump right in and breed a miniature. As long as they are properly guided and educated through the process I guess there is nothing wrong with it, it's just that they don't know what they are breeding for/not for and often times breed pet quality with a lot of faults and don't know the difference.

 

[disneyhorse]

People get barn blind to their "pets" and it's hard to have an objective eye. So many factors play in to being "top breeding material"... color, bloodlines, temperament, show record, athletic ability, conformation, size, registry types, etc. so when looking at the whole entire picture sometimes people just forget to see what the actual HORSE looks like. No horse is perfect, but for a good breeding animal you try to get the best of all worlds as close as you can. There are a lot of just plain average horses, and sometimes I have to remind myself that for some people, "average" may be better than breeding horses with glaring conformational issues not excluding dwarfism!!!

Andrea

 

[Frankie]

JMO

Those who seem to be doing some leading in this industry,,,,or at least they will tell you they are,,,talk a good game, but go to their farm and see if they are living by their own words? Look at their breeding, and not just a few crosses,,,,,,, when you go to their farm,,,,,,,,,,,,REALLY look,,,,,,,,beyond the fancy barn and the one nice stallion on display so to speak. Do your homework. Homework is not visiting one time and falling in love with that one special horse.

At some point, if we do not buy with our mind,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,we'll just have a herd of cute horses.......that's it.

And as for opinions given here,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,I think it has to do with HOW that opinion is given. Some people are just darn right hurtful about it. Then you see those people who make excuse after excuse for their own horses, honestly think they have justified it, not knowing we still see their problems, faults,,,,,,,,,,and then they give out advice to others. They don't give the rest of us credit for seeing beyond their chatter filled with empty words.

We can give advice, many still welcome it. Just do it in a nice way. I am not saying sugar coat it,,,but nasty does not need to come into play either.

But walk the walk, before you talk the talk! Much more respect comes from that.

 

[Bess Kelly]

Because minis are small and 'cute' there are too many who breed them as they would puppies or kittens ---Awww, aren't they cute!? And we KNOW the potato chip factor.

:

Those who have bred well, know conformation, know what's a minor/major fault, try to improve, research lines, etc.......try to help those less knowledgeable in all these areas but, often fall on deft ears. I have been the buyer of two auction mares (long story, wasn't there

: ) who were NOT mares who should be bred and both had in the past. They have spent years at my farm as companion animals!

:

Part of this is contributable to gelding & not breeding every mare alive. Part is just lack of knowledge. Part is plain old "I'm right, you're wrong". All becomes less than desireable fate for many animals.

I applaud the frankness of a critique. Sometimes it could be said softer and sometimes not. BUT always the owner should take heed and often they do not! Not every horse is show quality or breeding quality. They are ALL loving quality

:

 

[Jill]

It's a lot like people making excuses for bad behavior in their horses (kids or pets, too). It's hard for a lot of horse people to get a perspective on what they actually have in their herd. I would say if you wouldn't be happy with an exact duplicate of your mare (or stallion), don't breed her (or him). However, I see what some people feel are great / perfect horses that are total pet quality so I don't know where the education can begin with people who can't really take a step back and SEE.

Personally, me getting a better grip on what I had in my herd brought about a lot of changes the past year and it's not fun or easy to part with horses you love, but it is sometimes necessary. Horses not cut out for my program went on to be "the special ones" to other people.

One great way to get a reality check is get your horse into the show ring at a Registry show. You can't excuse away consistently getting the gate or if you consistently place high, then that is validation.

 

[Frankie]

Personally, me getting a better grip on what I had in my herd brought about a lot of changes the past year and it's not fun or easy to part with horses you love, but it is sometimes necessary.

There are so many that need to do the same as Jill. But again, do THEY see it. This year is the 2nd year in a row I have not bred, because I have to make sure I am making better, not making the same. I took a look around and decided more homework was in order for me.

You can't excuse away consistently getting the gate or if you consistently place high, then that is validation.

This is part of my point I was trying to make. People DO excuse away their getting the gate. And somehow in their mind, the excuses are valid. How do you make them open their own eyes? I just don't know. Because I see the same people doing it time and time again. At what point is it the horse,,,,,,,,not the 100 excuses they offer for the horse? Just my opinion, they will never see it and the next show, we'll hear a different excuse.

It's all about being honest with ourselves, and no matter what, some people just can not do that.

 

[Shari]

I do not critique online....because to me...there is no way to see the whole horse period.

Just looking at a photo or two doesn't work for me. (not talking about Dwarves)

I have seen horses in photo's that look like they should be dog meat... and seeing them in person for real....lets just say the photos don't do them justus.

Then I have seen horses in photos that look outstanding in them... and are junk in person.

You also can't tell the temperament or charisma from a photo.

As for folks being Barn blind....see a lot of it. There are all types of mini's out there. I like one type of comformation...though I know it is not the "fashion" right now.

Am I barn blind because I do not follow the pack? No, am in no way Barn blind to my horse's faults...could pick them apart from with the best of them.

Their conformation is good for their type.

So is being Barn blind because it is a type that someone doesn't like? Who's to stay what type is best?

There is no 100% perfect horse out there. I have seem some of them close. One mare I knew in the past had the most perfect conformation I have ever seen. But had the most nasty of temperaments. Horse I would never of bred because of that. However the owner had no problem with it.

Then I have seen a good average conformation with the most easy to train sweet temperament. The last horse I would breed because with the right stallion you have a chance on improving the conformation.

There will always...sadly... be breeders out there for the money. However.. I do see a lot of good people here that breed for the best mini they can. That is all anyone can do.

 

[Cathy_H]

or at least they will tell you they are,,,talk a good game, but go to their farm and see if they are living by their own words? Look at their breeding, and not just a few crosses,,,,,,, when you go to their farm,,,,,,,,,,,,REALLY look,,,,,,,,beyond the fancy barn and the one nice stallion on display so to speak. Do your homework.

And the ones that have bad conformation are sold to gullible buyers as breeding material. The only way they learn the truth is if they show the horse or ask for a critique from someone that does know. Then it is too late as they are into the breeding & can't or won't replace the horse and won't usually stop breeding it either.

 

[kaykay]

shari you are confusing two different things. One is "type" and one is "conformation" Type is selective and can be anything from draft type to so called araby type. Conformation is always the same no matter what the type. Good conformation is straight legs, good shoulder angle etc. This doesnt change with type. Well okay being cow hocked is desirable in some draft horses but in general good conformation is good conformation no matter what type the horse is. I have a mare that is very much quarter horse in type but she has awesome conformation. She still has some faults one being too big of a head. But her awesome straight legs, long neck and beautiful movement make it worth me breeding her to stallions with pretty heads.

We cant just blame sellers. People new to miniatures have to take responsibility to educate themselves!! Do the research first then buy

 

[chandab]

We cant just blame sellers. People new to miniatures have to take responsibility to educate themselves!! Do the research first then buy

These three little sentences say a heck of alot and are very important.

I'm still fairly new to minis, but not as new to horses. I have owned full-size horses for 20 years and been involved for longer than that.

I just love my little mini stallion and he has very good conformation. When I bought him, he was to be my only mini for a little while (but he'd have the company of full-size horses across a safe fence); the seller didn't want him to be alone and tried to sell me his buddy (cheap) so mine wouldn't be alone. Well, I couldn't put my finger on it and still can't, but there was just something about the buddy horse that wasn't right and I didn't like. She did finally let me bring my guy home alone, and it wasn't long before he had companionship his own size. But, if I hadn't had horses before or done my homework before buying my stallion, I probably would have bought the companion colt and then done the road probably been unhappy with him and then where would I be. Because I've made careful thought out purchases, I'm very happy with my little herd.

 

[SandyWI]

This has been a very interesting discussion.

I think that when people put up pics of their horses here and ask for critiques, in their own mind (and it would be the same with me, I'm afraid), that horse is the best lookin' little booger in the world! But that's because we KNOW our horses, and we love them, and they have these unique little wonderful personalities that sometimes clouds our judgement and makes us blind to conformational faults.

Asking for a conformational critique is always risky, as sometimes the horse is standing on uneven ground. Sometimes the pic might have been taken when the horse isn't even standing square, and perhaps that horse might look like dynamite standing there in the photo, but if you saw it move it might toe out or over-reach.

Critiquing foals is almost a crapshoot, as they can change so much by their first birthday, and they can change so much again by their second birthday, so what's said today might not hold true next year.

At any rate, I don't know who's been naughty and who's been nice in their critiques, because I don't get to visit the board often enough to read all the threads, but I do think that sometimes, as owners, when our bubbles are burst concerning our precious babies, it cuts right to the bone, so if someone asks for a critique they'd better have tough enough skin to hear the truth, as long as the truth is said nicely.

 

[Shari]

Kaykay, am not confusing type with conformation. Different Types will have a little different conformation.

One can go hand in hand together.

Some people will think one type's conformation is all wrong....because they do not like that type or style of horse.

What I am trying to get at...and another thing very hard to write down for me.

Is beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Same for looking at different types and conformation.

Like shows... I am sorry.. have seen some top winners.....not to be up to my par. Have seen some horses shown the gate that had much better temperaments and conformation over all. So to me shows will not tell a person if they have a good horse or not.

Am not talking about over or under bites, roach backs, Dwarves or such like that.

This is what makes this so hard...

To get good honest critiques...it really must be done with a knowledgeable person....in person...not by a photograph.

I also know people will not change minds by being aggressive with the person(s) asking for help. IE...conformation pointers and such. Been around too long and know I can't force my views on other people.

Gentle nudges work better IMHO.

I see you want to be totally right/on a soap box... and I am not on your page. So will stop writting.

 

[kaykay]

shari im not on a soapbox. Im really sorry if you took it that way. I honestly thought you were confusing type with conformation. I apologize!! I guess I just dont understand what you are saying?? If you could explain so I can understand? Maybe an example of a type of conformation you are talking about?

And I do agree that its very hard to judge a horses conformation from a picture.

 

[Frankie]

My take on this, and could be wrong, please feel free to tell me,

I think Shari means,,,,,,,,,,,put an Arab head on a Quarter Type mini, and you got one funky little horse. So the small dished head would be wrong for that Q-type. But, many look at the small dished head as better conformation.

Different horse types, different conformation.

just an example.

 

[Buckskin gal]

I think that is so true, Frankie. Same with the tail set......very different from a quarter horse type to Arab type. Really doesn't say that a high tail set is desirable in our Standard. Must add, our standard is interpreted differently by different people also. JMHO Mary

My take on this, and could be wrong, please feel free to tell me,

I think Shari means,,,,,,,,,,,put an Arab head on a Quarter Type mini, and you got one funky little horse. So the small dished head would be wrong for that Q-type. But, many look at the small dished head as better conformation.

Different horse types, different conformation.

just an example.

 

[Cathy_H]

I have a mare that is very much quarter horse in type but she has awesome conformation. She still has some faults one being too big of a head

In some peoples views this would be undesirable so my point is - after you get past the very obvious undesirable faults that most people agree upon where do you draw the line? All faults in this column are not acceptable BUT all faults (well not really) in this column are acceptable - who gets to decide - is it a fault or ???............................................... As for stallions correcting a problem - sometimes it does not happen. I have heard this told to new buyers more than once. If a seller tells a buyer that a short neck or a long head can be bred out then why can they NOT think that their crooked legged horse can be also......... As for buyers educating themselves before buying - not all buyers have access to this forum, the internet or even a breeder willing to educate them. A lot of what was considered breeding material in the past really is pet quality in todays book.

Have seen some horses shown the gate that had much better temperaments and conformation over all. So to me shows will not tell a person if they have a good horse or not.

But shows do help. Every judge is not going to place that horse above the other better conformed horses every time..... If they do it is either favortisim or that judge does not feel it is a fault - there goes that interpretation thingy

:

: again.

 

[JWC sr.]

In my opinion cornformation is conformation. Things such as straight legs, good bite and level top lines are something that eveyone of us try and breed for.

In the show ring it comes down to fine points of what is more important to a particular judge. In cattle which we have shown in the past the conformation of a a cow is broken down to different areas as to importance, and points are allotted for those different areas of the body. Thereby somewhat standardizing what a judge should be looking for, of course some may diviate but over the long run it might help if a point system like that was instituted instead of the general verbage the registries now use.

As far as opinions on the qualities of any particular horse, I hate to hurt anyones feelings. But we have made a promise to ourselves, that when ask we try and give a good honest opinion with an explanation. In the past I have gotten in trouble and Cindy tells me to keep my mouth shut more often. Whenever I ask someones an opinion I hope for a really good explantion and very critical evaluation. Tuffy Acton one of my best friends and I disagree quite often, but I still appreciate his honest opinion even though sometimes we don't agree. It gives me a different prespective to think about.

As far as different type body style of horses being desirable IE Draft, Quarter, Arabian, it changes not only over time, but even from show to show as we get different types judges ( quarter horse background, arabian background etc. ). But I guess it goes with the territory so to speak. We breed for what we find attractive and pleasing to our eyes. We durn sure are't making money at thsi deal so we had better enjoy what we work with.

As far as newcomers are concerned yes they need to do thier homework, but with that said as a breeder I feel it is important to try and help educate them as much as they will allow me to. Unfortuantely many times they are very resistant to quality equates to price syndrome. And insist they ONLY what a pet, that is when the unregistered geldings get shown to them.

We have just about stopped selling young colts prior to a 6 months to a year old as it is so hard for us to tell what they will be when they age a little. But we always have a few colts that are obviusly not going anywhere in the show ring and those are the unregistered gelding prospects. Our vet gelds for 50 - 60.00 so the costs is not that great.

Just my 2 cents worth,

John Cherry

Cherryville Farms :saludando:

HOME OF :

Cherryville's Rio De Oro

WF Patton's See Me Shine

Silver Plates Baccara Luxor

Whistling Pine's Apache Prince aka Whistle Britches

La Viata Farms Roses First

 

[kaykay]

cathy there are no perfect horses so we have to be able to know ourselves what is acceptable and what isnt. To me a big head is acceptable as long as I can cross that mare on a stallion that has a small pretty head and throws that head. To ME its not on the same league as say locked stifles. My mare wont live a life of pain because her head is bigger then i would like. To date she has never thrown her head and her filly has done great in the show ring. This mare is quarter horse type but when paired with a lighter boned prettier headed stallion she gives me beautiful lighter boned fillies with big hips that can move.

I totally agree with John. I have had people critique my horses in person. And they dont sugarcoat or try to be "nice" they just give me their honest opinion. I dont take it personally. Its horses! And how can I learn if Im not open to hearing what other people think?

I do think breeders also have a responsibility to represent horses honestly. And a lot do. But there will always be ones that dont. That is why you have to educate yourself. If you dont have the internet there are tons of college classes on horsemanship. One of my buyers who had never had horses took this class. She learned about caring for horses, horse conformation etc etc.