Help with Choosing
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Well...I am pulling down the collar on my turtle neck so I can really stick my neck out there now!!!
I hunt! I hunt upland birds and waterfowl. I love to hunt. I also love dogs and train and work with other trainers. So, I am knowledgeable about the labs and most spaniel breeds, as well as many others. Chocolate is just different! I don't care if AKC registeres them all as labs, Chocolates are a different breed! No matter what teeh registry says. They are harder to train, more stubborn, just plan dumb more often than not. I have a chocolate by the way so am not speaking out my *** either. I work with many kennels that train hunting dogs and almost without exception they refuse to take chocolates in for training because of the failure rate, they feel it is a waste of time.
So, besides their physical problems due to breeding for color, they are not the smartest pup in the pile!
My opinion and experience, take it for what it's worth to ya!
Ok guys...Bring it on!!! Flame away, I can take it!
Gee, I've never actually gotten to use that llittle flamey guy before. LOL
Edited to add" That Vizla is gorgeous by the way and they are very nice hunting dogs! Gotta start em early, but wonderful!
I hunt! I hunt upland birds and waterfowl. I love to hunt. I also love dogs and train and work with other trainers. So, I am knowledgeable about the labs and most spaniel breeds, as well as many others. Chocolate is just different! I don't care if AKC registeres them all as labs, Chocolates are a different breed! No matter what teeh registry says. They are harder to train, more stubborn, just plan dumb more often than not. I have a chocolate by the way so am not speaking out my *** either. I work with many kennels that train hunting dogs and almost without exception they refuse to take chocolates in for training because of the failure rate, they feel it is a waste of time.
So, besides their physical problems due to breeding for color, they are not the smartest pup in the pile!
My opinion and experience, take it for what it's worth to ya!
Ok guys...Bring it on!!! Flame away, I can take it!
Edited to add" That Vizla is gorgeous by the way and they are very nice hunting dogs! Gotta start em early, but wonderful!
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No, thank you minimama. I am soaking all this up. This is a gift ( might add, my husband is much tighter that I am spending money) and when I find a litter I am interested in , Ill let him go with me. Ill actually let him pick out his own pup from the litter. I found the lewellin setters, through and english setter site, and regardless whether they are a scam, these were some nice dogs. They were English Setters, but of the "lewellin": line, if I am writing that correctly.
I am so thankful everyone is taking the time to help me in my search, and if anything, I have learned that different dogs, are capable of doing many different things.
Most of the breeders I have talked to , say their breed is the ONLY "good " hunting companions. I now realize that most breeds will work for what I want. I have a toy poodle, chi, beagle, and two terriers now. ALL MINE.
And for whomever said, let husband partake, I guess I will, this will be HIS first dog since he was a boy. He has never tried to claim any of mine, so I guess he should get to pick his.
If it helps, central KY has grouse, quail, in good quantities. You can buy and release pheasants, and something called redleggers??. That is what he will be hunting, no ducks, or anything like that.
And if anyone knows anything in particular about a english pointer, I would love to hear about them.
I am so thankful everyone is taking the time to help me in my search, and if anything, I have learned that different dogs, are capable of doing many different things.
Most of the breeders I have talked to , say their breed is the ONLY "good " hunting companions. I now realize that most breeds will work for what I want. I have a toy poodle, chi, beagle, and two terriers now. ALL MINE.
And for whomever said, let husband partake, I guess I will, this will be HIS first dog since he was a boy. He has never tried to claim any of mine, so I guess he should get to pick his.
If it helps, central KY has grouse, quail, in good quantities. You can buy and release pheasants, and something called redleggers??. That is what he will be hunting, no ducks, or anything like that.
And if anyone knows anything in particular about a english pointer, I would love to hear about them.
runamuk
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No flames here...in fact what you have experienced may be direct fallout from the tight genetics required to produce the color.......when inbreeding coeffiecents get high alot of things can happen....and temperment can be bred for but if in the quest for color no one paid attention to the other details you can quickly breed in traits that become color related....probably still have those problems in lines of blacks or yellows but because the genetic pool is bigger it isn't seen as often......
Sadly the irish setter was once a fabulous hunting breed.......it is near impossible to find one from a strong hunting background now days...they are still beautiful dogs but they don't perform the function they were originally bred for
chocolates in standard poodles also have some fairly extreme differences as an overall tendency and it is because of the chocolate to chocolate breeding that took place without regard to the other traits......like I said I managed to find a hunting kennel in canada that also happened to like chocolates however much of their breeding stock is based on ability to work first then color as a bonus
where oh where have I heard that before
Sadly the irish setter was once a fabulous hunting breed.......it is near impossible to find one from a strong hunting background now days...they are still beautiful dogs but they don't perform the function they were originally bred for
chocolates in standard poodles also have some fairly extreme differences as an overall tendency and it is because of the chocolate to chocolate breeding that took place without regard to the other traits......like I said I managed to find a hunting kennel in canada that also happened to like chocolates however much of their breeding stock is based on ability to work first then color as a bonus
minimama said:Well...I am pulling down the collar on my turtle neck so I can really stick my neck out there now!!!
I hunt! I hunt upland birds and waterfowl. I love to hunt. I also love dogs and train and work with other trainers. So, I am knowledgeable about the labs and most spaniel breeds, as well as many others. Chocolate is just different! I don't care if AKC registeres them all as labs, Chocolates are a different breed! No matter what teeh registry says. They are harder to train, more stubborn, just plan dumb more often than not. I have a chocolate by the way so am not speaking out my *** either. I work with many kennels that train hunting dogs and almost without exception they refuse to take chocolates in for training because of the failure rate, they feel it is a waste of time.
So, besides their physical problems due to breeding for color, they are not the smartest pup in the pile!
My opinion and experience, take it for what it's worth to ya!
Ok guys...Bring it on!!! Flame away, I can take it!
Gee, I've never actually gotten to use that llittle flamey guy before. LOL
Edited to add" That Vizla is gorgeous by the way and they are very nice hunting dogs! Gotta start em early, but wonderful!
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For what you are looking to do, or actually your husband, the pointer would be nice. They tend to be high strung, but trainable. They do seem to need more attention than many of the hunting breeds and can take to bad habits if left to their own devices. Not true with all hunting breeds, but pointer breeds are notorious for this. When put in a kennel all day, or crate, they can whine, and chew and dig anything they can get at. now this is only a negative if someone will not be there with the dog. So, if someone is home most of the time, this is a non issue. Pointers tend to get distracted as well, but they can be trained that when hunting, they are working and must pay attention. They constantly shed, but the hair is so short you really don't notice, which is very nice! Very little maintenance as far as coat. These are wonderful pheasant dogs when trained properly.
Now, my number one bit of advice to you will be there, no matter what you spend on the pup, go the extra mile and get your husband a gift certificate for hunting training!!!! Start the pup off very young, from day one really, and you will have a wonderful dog, no matter which breed you choose.
Maybe you could do that, get him a gift certificate for hunting traing and wrap it up, then when he opens it, and looks quizically at you, tell him that he just has to pick the puppy!!!
Now, my number one bit of advice to you will be there, no matter what you spend on the pup, go the extra mile and get your husband a gift certificate for hunting training!!!! Start the pup off very young, from day one really, and you will have a wonderful dog, no matter which breed you choose.
Maybe you could do that, get him a gift certificate for hunting traing and wrap it up, then when he opens it, and looks quizically at you, tell him that he just has to pick the puppy!!!
tagalong
Well-Known Member
Well - technically and genetically - chocolate Labs are not a different breed....
And as far as being dumb - that is up to the individual dog. Whether it is black, yellow - or chocolate.
The problem is not with the chocolates per se... but with Labs being popular and anyone and everyone breeding them - with no regard for conformation, temperament or working ability / form to function. And with chocolate being "in" - poor chocolates get bred to bring in the desired colour - and low-quality dogs are the result.
Flat-coated retrievers and Field Spaniels have liver/chocolate variations as well - and they are not considered dumber than the black versions of the same dog. *shrug*
Up until I moved here - I used to help a friend (who had Goldens) with her dog club and work the Retriever Trials. At the last one I worked... one of those "stupid, dumb" chocolate Labs - a beautiful bitch with stunning looks... cleaned up and made all the other dogs look like rank beginners. Go figure!
ETA:
Yep - Duck Tollers are cool - and on the short side compared to many of the others...
And as far as being dumb - that is up to the individual dog. Whether it is black, yellow - or chocolate.
As someone else pointed out - that would be like a mini trainer refusing to take in palominos... or greys... or whatever.
The problem is not with the chocolates per se... but with Labs being popular and anyone and everyone breeding them - with no regard for conformation, temperament or working ability / form to function. And with chocolate being "in" - poor chocolates get bred to bring in the desired colour - and low-quality dogs are the result.
Flat-coated retrievers and Field Spaniels have liver/chocolate variations as well - and they are not considered dumber than the black versions of the same dog. *shrug*
Up until I moved here - I used to help a friend (who had Goldens) with her dog club and work the Retriever Trials. At the last one I worked... one of those "stupid, dumb" chocolate Labs - a beautiful bitch with stunning looks... cleaned up and made all the other dogs look like rank beginners. Go figure!
ETA:
Yep - Duck Tollers are cool - and on the short side compared to many of the others...
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Well Tagalong, there are exceptions to every rule now aren't there. LOL
we're not talking about anything besides chocoalte LABS, and other colors in other breeds are fine, never had any issue with any of them. Trainers won't take chocolates for good reasons. Obviously if there are so many that hold this opinion, there must be something to it, don't ya think.
we're not talking about anything besides chocoalte LABS, and other colors in other breeds are fine, never had any issue with any of them. Trainers won't take chocolates for good reasons. Obviously if there are so many that hold this opinion, there must be something to it, don't ya think.
No flames here, either. Your experience is your experience. I haven't experienced what you have although I, too, have owned many Labs (including four chocolates). Honestly, although I grew up dreaming of owning a Lab and only a Lab would do... I can't say as I care for the breed much anymore. For whatever reason, everyone breeds them and everyone seems to have this dreamy idea that Labradors are all sedate, devoted, children's pets who will lay at your feet by the fire. What usually happens is that people don't bother to research the breed or bloodlines and just go out and purchase that cute Lab pup from the ad in the paper with no guarantee or background information. Fine, whatever, but now they just aren't ready for an exuberant Lab puppy who's chewing and chasing and knocking things about with his tail and who may still be very much a puppy at two or even three. Their pup is screaming for exercise and obedience training but instead he lands at the pound after knocking over the toddler one too many times...
rabbitsfizz
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Think of the country you are going to be working- ALL pointers are very fine skinned.
German and Hungarian (Vizlas) have wire haired versions (for which there is no reason to dock) English Pointers have no wire haired version and are Pointers only- Germans and Hungarian are Hunt, Point Retrieve. Although some English Pointers lines will do the job, a lot may expect you to send the Butler!!!
I'll say it again Nova Scotia Toller- forget the "duck" bit- they are Hunt Point Retrieve dogs, a bit bigger than a Spaniel and totally unspoilt by the show ring.
German and Hungarian (Vizlas) have wire haired versions (for which there is no reason to dock) English Pointers have no wire haired version and are Pointers only- Germans and Hungarian are Hunt, Point Retrieve. Although some English Pointers lines will do the job, a lot may expect you to send the Butler!!!
I'll say it again Nova Scotia Toller- forget the "duck" bit- they are Hunt Point Retrieve dogs, a bit bigger than a Spaniel and totally unspoilt by the show ring.
Envypoodles, I completely agree. But then too, the exuberant puppy is pretty much, ANY puppy! LOL People buy because of the "aww factor" and forget about the training and work that goes into a pup.
And labs are not the be all end all for me either. I do like them, but I love lots of different breeds for different reasons. There are also amny breeds that I adore but would never have, just because I know about them and they are not right for me. My sister is a Siberian Husky Breeder. I love those dogs...OMG!!!! But, I also knwo what they are like and it is not right for me and my lifestyle so would never have one of my own. I cna go visit hers lots though! LOL
And labs are not the be all end all for me either. I do like them, but I love lots of different breeds for different reasons. There are also amny breeds that I adore but would never have, just because I know about them and they are not right for me. My sister is a Siberian Husky Breeder. I love those dogs...OMG!!!! But, I also knwo what they are like and it is not right for me and my lifestyle so would never have one of my own. I cna go visit hers lots though! LOL
tifflunn
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We had a English springer spaniel- Not sure what they are suppose to hunt- but he was the best opposum(sp?) catcher and small animal hunting dog
- He was also the best companion for my husband and an excellent babysitter for the kids
Tiffany
tagalong
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*shrug*minimama said:Trainers won't take chocolates for good reasons. Obviously if there are so many that hold this opinion, there must be something to it, don't ya think.
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Or... it has become tradition/urban legend/folklore... just like the fact a horse with 4 white feet was no good that so many believed in for so long. Or all Arabs are hot, all Appies are dumb/stubborn...
The chocolate bitch I mentioned was from a fine working line... and had littermates who also did well - I just never had the privilege of seeing them...
Anyway... we have all had our own experiences...
chandab
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envypoodles said:Their pup is screaming for exercise and obedience training but instead he lands at the pound after knocking over the toddler one too many times...
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This is how my ex-boyfriend got his black lab... Buster was bought as a puppy, was too exhuberant, sent to the pound; adopted by a family, still exhuberant, knocked the toddler over with his tail a few times and back to the pound he went. So, then my ex picked him up and had him for 9 years (Buster got cancer and died). He was the smartest dog I have ever been around and so kind-hearted, but so full of energy.
C & C Farms
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German Shorthair Pointer!!! Love ours!!
They are high energy and love to run, but when when our dog is in the house he is the biggest baby, of course sleeps on MY side of the bed and sometimes on my lap, yup all 75 lbs of him on my lap! LOL
They are very smart dogs too. They make excellent bird dogs and love to hunt. Ours is Black and white, they also come in liver and white.
Can't say enough good things about them....wonderful dogs!
Can't say enough good things about them....wonderful dogs!
justaboutgeese
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My vote goes for the springer spaniel. They make good all around bird dogs and great house pets as well. Email me and I can send some pictures.
backwoodsnanny
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We have cocker spaniels but have never had a crazy one. But for a bird dog the Brittanies are very nice dogs. They learn quickly and they are amazing. My brother-in law has had them for as long as I can remember and they are wonderful house dogs and bird dogs.
runamuk
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Here is a link to a good site about rage syndrome....yes it is called cocker rage BUT they are also researching the syndrome in other cases in other breeds........
cockerspaniel rage
cockerspaniel rage
Robin1
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Personally I have to go with the Brittany Spaniel for hunting bird and being a GREAT house dog. They truelly love to be both and are VERY sweet dogs. I like the Springer Spaniel but they tend to be a bit more energetic.
Robin
Robin
capall beag
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Too bad you are not lookign in New England, I know lots of top notch breeders of labs and Duck Trolling Retreiver.
If you are looking to spend the high end of your range, you should get a good quality dog.
Certainly, make sure the parents have their clearances hip, elbow, eye.
Any good breeder who is produving dogs for hunting will have titled dogs. Certainly my retreivers had Working Certificate and Junior hunter certs and they were not used for hunting!! But all gundogs should be able to complete these to show they have the natural instincts.
A good breeder should temperament test their pups and know which pups would suit what purpose. Many breeders who breed for hunting will not place a pup with high hunting drive into a pet home(only) because they want to see their dogs used to their potential.
As far as labs go any of the colors can be of equal quality so long as chocolate and yellow are never bred together. Yellow and chocolate should only be bred to same or back to black.
You can go look on Wassookeag Retreivers if you want to get an idea of what to look for.
Hope this helps!
I had a English springer spaniel growing up and she was a brilliant dog! She would hunt all day, pheasant, grouse, rabbit she did it all and she was a perfect house dog too!! The sweetest, most undemanding and loyal dog you could ask for!!
If you are looking to spend the high end of your range, you should get a good quality dog.
Certainly, make sure the parents have their clearances hip, elbow, eye.
Any good breeder who is produving dogs for hunting will have titled dogs. Certainly my retreivers had Working Certificate and Junior hunter certs and they were not used for hunting!! But all gundogs should be able to complete these to show they have the natural instincts.
A good breeder should temperament test their pups and know which pups would suit what purpose. Many breeders who breed for hunting will not place a pup with high hunting drive into a pet home(only) because they want to see their dogs used to their potential.
As far as labs go any of the colors can be of equal quality so long as chocolate and yellow are never bred together. Yellow and chocolate should only be bred to same or back to black.
You can go look on Wassookeag Retreivers if you want to get an idea of what to look for.
Hope this helps!
I had a English springer spaniel growing up and she was a brilliant dog! She would hunt all day, pheasant, grouse, rabbit she did it all and she was a perfect house dog too!! The sweetest, most undemanding and loyal dog you could ask for!!
