Help me fit my harness Round 2 Photos

[KellyAlaska]

I am still working on fitting my harness and this is my second set of photos for review. I adjusted the breast collar and the breeching. I lowered my cart and raised my shafts. It is quite a bit better than my first drive but my traces are still interfering with my breeching when my pony moves. My breeching gets lifted up and will not lay flat when the traces are run though the breeching straps. Please let me know what else you think should be adjusted so I can make my cart and harness fit my pony better. It does seem like you have to lean back still in the cart to get the weight off the shafts. I am concerned my cart is still not balanced properly. I do have room to add holes in my sliding back band if you think that would help to balance my set up. I want to thank everyone who responded to my last posting for the feedback. I cannot tell you how much I appreciate you taking the time to help a novice driver.

Thanks,

Kelly

 













 

 

 

[hobbyhorse23]

Hmm....*twitches whiskers in agitation*

Tweaking can be so frustrating in the early stages! I like some of the changes but now there's a whole new set of problems. My impressions, and first impressions only mind you, are that now the breastcollar is a hair too low, the cart is a little too low and a little too far back from the horse somehow. Yes, I know, you only did what we told you too!

But this is where it starts getting frustrating instead of fun because you start having to play around with smaller variables to see what effect they have on the whole.

You've been providing great photos to work with and that helps a lot but be aware that some of those moving shots are being taken at an angle that distorts the look of the cart. Can you get your hubby to kneel down or stand further back and use a zoom? It would also help if he was even with the horse's midsection or hip rather than your position in the cart as the current angle is elongating the appearance of the rig and making it hard to judge the true balance and scale. The closeups of the horse are fine, I'm only referring to the pictures that have you and the cart in them as well.

If the shafts aren't floating then we've still got a balance issue, no question about it. For many carts (including my Bellcrown with only me in it) floating seems to be an unattainable dream and it's often better to have a few pounds in the tugs as then the shafts don't slap up and down. The Smart Cart however floats like a dream given a chance and I think you should shoot for that.

Start by holding the shafts at the height we want them at; currently that would be with the top of the loop at about the height of the top of the breastcollar. (It might help to measure the distance to the ground from that position so you can hold the shafts at the right height without involving the horse.) Adjust the cart so that when the shafts are at that height the seat is level and not tipped back. From there, make sure the seat is the right height from the floorboards for your leg length and that you can brace your feet properly against the sloped part of the floor.

The problem for me is that while I've been around a ton of Smart Carts and taken lots of pictures of them, I've never adjusted one myself so I'm not sure exactly what parts move and in what direction. I just know that many of them do!

Hopefully someone like the Whitemans that have fitted these carts to many different horses will pop on and give some recommendations for specific adjustments. I just know you need the factors above to be correct, then you need to tweak things until the shafts float at that height with your weight comfortably positioned in the cart.

I'm really not sure what to do with the breeching at this point. The shafts are too low to do the trick of wrapping it back under the shaft instead of back over, it'll look messy to let the traces ride above holdback straps, and tweaking the angle of draft will cause its own problems unless you were to buy a Freedom Collar and the lowered draft assembly for the Smart Cart and completely change things. I personally prefer that setup, but it would be an expensive "tweak!"

I'll go review my pictures of correct Smart Cart setups and see if anything jumps out at me. I can't post them without the owners' permission (Whitemans, Clickmini, and a couple of others) but I can look at them for ideas.

Keep up the balancing efforts and lets see what some other folks have to say!

Leia

 

[CZP1]

I agree that the breeching and breast collar need to come up. They are a little low. As for the shafts I think as Leia said they are still way to low. I know that doesn't help. It might just be the angle of how the picture was taken.

I would definately search out as many pictures as you can find and just compare to your turnout to the pictures. It does take alot of time to tweak!

 

[hobbyhorse23]

I agree that the breeching and breast collar need to come up. They are a little low.

We just had her lower the breeching- it was way too high before and looks "just right" to me now. The only problem is the way the traces tip up the front of the breeching.

As for the breastcollar, it looks like this horse really needs an in-between hole.

People who drive big horses would never believe how much difference a 1/2" can make on one of these guys!

Kelly, you can try putting it back up a notch in front but this time using the false martingale and see if that makes a difference. It might, as long as the martingale is tight enough to hold it down away from his windpipe. I've said for years that much as I love a ComfyFit harness their regular breastcollars are not well-designed and this is an example of what I mean. Too wide to not enough purpose and the shape is wrong to fit 99% of the minis I've seen them on.

Maybe I should go talk to Janie again about another round of product improvement....

Leia

 

[shorthorsemom]

Please excuse my newbie terms, Leia, you can correct, but the britching looks to hang rather far back which tips it at the butt. The photos you sent me on your boy, the part of the britching that goes over the butt hangs more farther away from the butt more in line with the front line of the hip, hard to explain, but it looks like in the one photo that the back strap needs to be shortened so the britching straps hang more straight. Any chance I got this right? Leia, you had me fiddling with the hang of my britching and that is why I was looking at these photos and they looked similar to a problem I was having with my harness fit. Also in the last photo the trace looks to be sandwiched in the hold back britching strap. I thought that was a no-no and that we had to use trace carriers or carabiners for the traces to run through and not have them run through the holdback strap?.

Please critique my errors if I have said anything wrong, not trying to be critical, just trying to photo learn and practice my eye.

I have much to learn and every hook up photo is a learning experience for me

Thanks for posting. Your horse is beautiful.

 

[CZP1]

My bad! In looking at the picture again the breastcollar look fine but the traces are long, it is the breeching that looks too long. You don't want it too low where it will kindof get "tucked" under the horse and sweep him off his feet while going down the hill, kindof like when someone comes and pushed your knee forward from the back and you almost fall

. Mine is higher than what Kelly has on her horse. Wanted to add too that if you can to balance out the cart, move the seat back to get the weight off the shafts.

Kelly if you can try to find someone in the area that might be able to help you in your fitting of the harness and cart. It may be hard in AK, I don't know but you are on the right path.

 

[hobbyhorse23]

Please excuse my newbie terms, Leia, you can correct, but the britching looks to hang rather far back which tips it at the butt. The photos you sent me on your boy, the part of the britching that goes over the butt hangs more farther away from the butt more in line with the front line of the hip, hard to explain, but it looks like in the one photo that the back strap needs to be shortened so the britching straps hang more straight. Any chance I got this right?

Yes, I'd say you got that right Adair.

It was something I was considering mentioning but it's such a minor thing compared to all the larger issues I thought I'd wait. Right now I believe the breeching would naturally hang level (which yours wasn't) but the traces are causing it to tip backwards. We've got to fix the trace issue first and then we can worry about any other little tweaks.

Also in the last photo the trace looks to be sandwiched in the hold back britching strap. I thought that was a no-no and that we had to use trace carriers or carabiners for the traces to run through and not have them run through the holdback strap?

It is traditionally correct to run the traces through the holdback straps. Where it becomes incorrect is when that messes with the line of the traces, which in this case it does not. The problem is that while the traces run nice and straight the line of them is a bit high and is pulling the breeching up so we want to change that somehow.

Trace carriers are hung from the breeching ring when the traces go down towards the horse's hocks and as such are too low to be run through the holdbacks. Carabiners were something I used on the neck terrets to run the reins a bit lower, not the traces.

You don't want it too low where it will kindof get "tucked" under the horse and sweep him off his feet while going down the hill, kindof like when someone comes and pushed your knee forward from the back and you almost fall

.

That is very true and I can see where you'd think that was the case here looking at these photos. My suspicion is that a lot of the problem is the back dipping lower because the front is being tipped up and the straps are actually adjusted correctly. It was MUCH worse at a notch higher, not well-fitting at all. Traditionally the rule for full-sized horses is the breeching ring should hang at the level of the stifle and we just raise it a little if that's too low for the horse's conformation. Jack appears in no danger of having his feet swept out from under him.

Leia

Edited to add: You know what? I'm going to revise my opinion. I know the Chimacum harnesses always come with the hip straps crossed but my identical model from Camptown (back when they were using exactly the same harness guy) had them run through separate slots in the backstrap and I always liked how that worked much better. Why don't you try uncrossing the straps, let out the crupper a bit (I can see the second slot in some of these photos so just put the rear strap through its own slot) and shorten up the backstrap a notch or two so the first strap hangs a bit further forward as Adair mentioned and see if that doesn't help with the tipping a little bit? Looking closely at those photos again I think it might be a little more of a contributing factor than I was giving it credit for.

 

[Minimor]

You lowered the cart--but when you raised the shafts, did you just raise them on the front end, or did you raise them on the cart?

It's hard to tell for sure--always easier when I'm doing it myself rather than looking at someone's photos!--but looks like the shafts might be attached higher than they should be on the cart. If you go to the Pacific Carriages website there are several photos--not the marathon shafts but the regular shafts, but they're both the same at the point where they attach to the cart--and on smaller (33") horses the shafts appear to be lower on the cart & are not interfering with the breeching/hold back straps. If the shafts are lower on the cart then the traces will attach lower and will therefore not be pulling the front of the breeching up--that's what I would try if indeed the shafts can be lowered on the cart.

I was trying to figure out why your cart looks so different, but now I see it's because you're not using the dash rail on it. It looks naked without that!

 

[KellyAlaska]

Minimor,

Thank you for your post. We did lower the cart and from what I can see it looks like the only place you can raise the shafts is the sliding bolt adjustment on the front of the cart. Please let me know if there is another way to adjust the shafts on the Pacific Smart Cart.

I went to the Pacific Carriages website and I saw a picture of the Smart Cart with a horse or pony using the Marathon shafts and it looks like the breeching is being moved by the traces on that photo as well. If we lower the shafts on the cart it makes the shafts have more of an uphill look. We have the patine dash with the chrome rein rail but we don't plan on using it unless we decide to show. We did adjust the seat about an inch and a half backwards and that seemed to help lift some of the weight out of the shafts. I am going to adjust the breast collar,backstrap and breeching and try to drive him again and see if that helps.

Thanks,

Kelly

 

[Minimor]

What I meant was--from the pictures in your earlier thread to these photos here--you raised the shafts where they attach to the cart? if it were me I would have left them where they were on the cart in the first place, and just shortened the shaft loops to raise the front of the shaft in relation to your horse. Yes, this angles them upward more, but in your initial thread they look angled downward from back to front.

Lowering the cart itself helps some, but that benefit is cancelled out if you in turn raised the shafts on the cart. It's hard to say for sure, especially when I don't have the marathon shafts myself, but that's my impression from looking at your photos.

 

[hobbyhorse23]

Thanks Minimor, I told you I don't have a clue with adjusting these Pacifics!

If we lower the shafts on the cart it makes the shafts have more of an uphill look.

That's not a problem. Marathon shafts are supposed to be uphill and it will definitely help with the breeching problem. Just make sure your seat is still level when the shafts are where they're supposed to be.

Leia

 

[Matthijs]

Hi, We have a Pacific Smart cart and use it with a 33" horse. We only had it for a few months but we are able to get that thing floating beautifully. Our first problem was that to get zero weight on the shafts we had to slide the seat about an inch behind the track.

Bill Schuil from Pacific told me to lower the shafts on the front of the vehicle. This tips the cart backwards and the drivers weight further behind the axle. That lowers the weight on the shafts.

But even before all that I lowered the cart in the lowest position at the axle. same effect.

Another change I made was shortening the shafts as far as the tugs would go. and shortening the floor of the cart as far as it would go. I find the cart extremely long.

These changes really have a big impact on the maneuverability of the cart.

Last but not least to help with the britching being pulled up by the tugs I removed the bolt from the swingle tree and mounted it on the underside of its bracket. That is the cheap way to change that.

One more thing that I will try on our next drive is the use of trace holders (that came with our Chimacum pair harness) instead of leading the tug through the holdback strap.

Bill is also working on our pair pole with yoke so we can drive our pair with it, then everything will start again, but what fun.

I added a picture but cannot see it, guess I have to work on that one too

 

[Matthijs]

See if this works. Tina with 33" Willow and Pacific smart cart.

 

[LazyRanch]

It is quite a bit better than my first drive but my traces are still interfering with my breeching when my pony moves. My breeching gets lifted up and will not lay flat when the traces are run though the breeching straps. Please let me know what else you think should be adjusted so I can make my cart and harness fit my pony better.

Thanks,

Kelly

Hi Kelly,

I know I am a newcomer here - and to fitting carts and harness. It would seem that fitting, adjusting and tweaking are as much a sport as the driving. Having said that, I would like to add that I have had the bedickins of a time getting my harness and cart organized as well. So, I share your frustration!

I would like to offer a couple of ideas, if it's ok. And I know Leia will comment, which is perfect, since that will help me too!

With regard to the breeching, I would forget about running the traces through the holdbacks. The holdbacks seem to ride too far forward - and high - for this to work well or provide a good, straight line back to your singletree. As I have been told, there should be a straight line of draught, not unlike a straight line of the rein from elbow to horse's mouth (when riding). In your photos, it appears that the trace comes off the buckle at the breastcollar ok, but then gets hitched up at the holdback "corral", then has to drop back down to the single tree.

I have this issue with my easy entry cart and my one horse. I fiddled with it for months and it never set quite right. I finally took the trace out of the loop altogether. Worked fine, and the trace not only wasn't jimmying up the breeching behind, it also wasn't causing a jam up point, so the singletree started to do its job, and no more shoulder rubbing up front.

The second thing I did that made a giant difference was to make the holdback strap a chronic attachment on the shaft. I did this on my HyperBike as a quick release and decided to do it on the ee cart. Essentially, I took the hold back strap off the harness altogether, and attached it to the footman's loop on the cart, then attached a (QUALITY) snap to the holdback, which then snaps to the ring that the holdback strap attached to on the harness. My thought was that it served as a quick release in case of an emergency, and saved me time wrapping every time I hitched. It also cured my breeching issues! I think because the holdback strap attaching to the snap acts as one joint - allowing it to act more independently, while attaching to the breeching ring as a second, again, independent attachment. If you like, I can send a photo.

Just a couple thoughts.(and Leia, you can stop laughing now. Yes, I do own an EE cart)

 

 

 

[Matthijs]

I second the holdback straps with clips, have not applied that yet, but would strongly recommend using tug loops so your horse will never be able to put a leg over a tug.

I also like the way they hold up the tugs (traces) while harnessing or when harnessed up and waiting during classes and so on.

 

[RhineStone]

The point about using a quality snap needs to be heeded. I know of driving trainers that will take cheap ones off your harness and will not give them back! They are a major point of failure if they are cheap. Good snap shackles can be used, though. The other concern about leaving the breeching straps attached to the cart is that they don't get inspected as much as if they were unwrapped each time. People tend to leave them there and not look at them again for a while. In the mean time, the leather can develop cracks and the stitching can go bad, something you don't want happening with your braking system.

On some non-traditional vehicles, traces don't necessarily have to go through the breeching strap loops for just the reason mentioned. It can break the line of draft. On a traditional vehicle, putting the traces through the loop helps keep the traces from rubbing on the horse.

Myrna

 

[hobbyhorse23]

Another change I made was shortening the shafts as far as the tugs would go. and shortening the floor of the cart as far as it would go. I find the cart extremely long.These changes really have a big impact on the maneuverability of the cart.

Last but not least to help with the britching being pulled up by the tugs I removed the bolt from the swingle tree and mounted it on the underside of its bracket. That is the cheap way to change that.

As I have been told, there should be a straight line of draught, not unlike a straight line of the rein from elbow to horse's mouth (when riding). In your photos, it appears that the trace comes off the buckle at the breastcollar ok, but then gets hitched up at the holdback "corral", then has to drop back down to the single tree.

That's normally the case and I agree with you 100% about the straight line of draft being desirable. From her description it sounded like the breeching was coming out the loser and from my own experience with this brand of harness I would expect that the stiff trace would hold its own straight line at the expense of the more flexible holdback strap. Hence the fix is mostly for the breeching.

The second thing I did that made a giant difference was to make the holdback strap a chronic attachment on the shaft. I did this on my HyperBike as a quick release and decided to do it on the ee cart. Essentially, I took the hold back strap off the harness altogether, and attached it to the footman's loop on the cart, then attached a (QUALITY) snap to the holdback, which then snaps to the ring that the holdback strap attached to on the harness. My thought was that it served as a quick release in case of an emergency, and saved me time wrapping every time I hitched.

If I need to get that horse out of the cart in an emergency, I will be undoing the entire back strap. That gets both holdbacks with one central buckle and saves a lot of fuss if the horse is down and laying on a buckle. See below for further comments on the concept of holdback snaps in general.

I second the holdback straps with clips, have not applied that yet, but would strongly recommend using tug loops so your horse will never be able to put a leg over a tug.I also like the way they hold up the tugs (traces) while harnessing or when harnessed up and waiting during classes and so on.

Do you mean trace loops, like the ones that come on Jerald cart shafts? Tug loops or shaft loops are the proper name for the part of the harness your shafts rest in, not the loops stapled to wooden shafts that carry the traces. "Trace carriers" are another thing that does as you're saying and those are suspended from the breeching ring and are part of the harness. I much prefer those to trace loops on the shafts if the angle of draught allows it as the ones on the shafts can pull the traces away from the horse and interfer with how well the singletree works. If your traces are rubbing your horse's sides, you need to get a wider singletree.

The point about using a quality snap needs to be heeded. I know of driving trainers that will take cheap ones off your harness and will not give them back! They are a major point of failure if they are cheap. Good snap shackles can be used, though. The other concern about leaving the breeching straps attached to the cart is that they don't get inspected as much as if they were unwrapped each time. People tend to leave them there and not look at them again for a while. In the mean time, the leather can develop cracks and the stitching can go bad, something you don't want happening with your braking system.

Thank you, Myrna!

I so agree with both these points. Wrapping the holdbacks drives me crazy as it takes so long but I figured with all the different carts I drive if I left them on one I'd find out too late that I didn't have them on the vehicle I packed for whatever trip! That's especially true now with two horses.

I'd end up rewrapping them every time anyway and it's just not worth it when I could so easily overlook a damaged part.

The one time I did use snaps was when a friend had them on her harness and let me borrow her mare, and most of you have heard what happened when she took off and got herself wrapped around a few small trees. I'd looked at the snaps suspiciously before the drive because they were cheap brass ones from the hardware store and sure enough, when the singletree tore off the cart from the force of the mare's impact (

) one of the snaps was pulled so hard the metal bent straight and released the holdback from the breeching ring. Not. Dependable!!

I don't personally like using quick-release snap shackles there either as they're too heavy for my little guys and cause a lot of jingling/bouncing, something the regular strap does not do. (BTW, undoing the backstrap worked perfectly in that case. Just remember to also undo one side of the crupper if your horse isn't used to having the crupper pulled down the dock still buckled.) I might use a load-rated stainless steel buckle, but only the good ones.

Leia

 

[Matthijs]

Hi Leia,

Yes I mean trace carriers

. I see no problem disengaging the traces from the holdback straps, only need trace carriers with long traces I guess.

Good point about the inspection of the holdbacks when re-wrapping.

Main point in my set up remains, shorten that cart as much as you can and lower it as far as you dare. that way you get the nicest balance and driving dynamics.

A slight leaning back or upward pointing of the shafts is fine, and desirable as it will lower that point of draught and makes it easier for the horse to pull the cart out of little dips.

PS Bill has our pair pole with yoke ready and we will pick it up tomorrow.

 

[Carriage]

Main point in my set up remains, shorten that cart as much as you can and lower it as far as you dare. that way you get the nicest balance and driving dynamics.

A slight leaning back or upward pointing of the shafts is fine, and desirable as it will lower that point of draught and makes it easier for the horse to pull the cart out of little dips.

Well stated Matthijs. Physics and ergonomics shaking hands and being friends. Working with the animal vs. being an inanimate drag behind the animal.

We specifically considered the points you stated and addressed them in ways that seemed extreme and un"traditional" however the horses didn't think so. The points you raised apply to all rigs and set-ups and these points should be addressed to the best of that set-up's ability imo.

Bb

 

[LazyRanch]

:yesfrom the hardware store and sure enough, when the singletree tore off the cart from the force of the mare's impact (

) one of the snaps was pulled so hard the metal bent straight and released the holdback from the breeching ring. Not. Dependable!!

I don't personally like using quick-release snap shackles there either as they're too heavy for my little guys and cause a lot of jingling/bouncing, something the regular strap does not do. (BTW, undoing the backstrap worked perfectly in that case. Just remember to also undo one side of the crupper if your horse isn't used to having the crupper pulled down the dock still buckled.) I might use a load-rated stainless steel buckle, but only the good ones.

Leia

Good heavens! I hadn't heard about that wreck!!! Boy, we sure can rack them up, can't we?

With regard to my snaps, I am often reluctant to suggest them around here - everyone tends to go cheap. One gal had those nasty little thumb snaps that go for $1.29! That's what she told me she paid for them!!! And PROUD to have found "the deal."

In my other life, I am a sailer - blue water, live aboard, sail from Venezuela to Virgin Islands, South America to Ireland sailer. Also, a builder of 50' catamarans. I use marine grade/strength snaps, shackles, lines for pretty much everything. I had a collection of brass and stainless snaps and shackles left over from boat building Cheryl days. I say had, because most of them are gone now, having replaced everyone's True Value Travesties.

I do like the idea of the back strap release, though. Hmmmm, seems to me there is that little, tiny 3/4" clew line snap shackle left over . . . . .