Getting started... Help!

[SMW]

I've been working with my mini to hopefully have her driving by the end of spring. However, I've run into a road block... She won't move! I have only successfully got her to go forward once, for about ten minutes. Under open bridle and a lounging surgicle (has the crouper attatched to it like a normal harness, i'm sure there is a proper name for it) she will get very confused and when i tap her with the whip and ask her to go forward she will turn around completely and look at me like "mom, i turned around... now what?" I feel like somewhere along the lines I'm missing something, ideas?

I've only driven horses that were already broke, so trying to start one has been somewhat difficult. Any tips would help, I feel bad bugging my bosses all the time for help, lol.

 

[studiowvw]

Lots of ways to get her going forward - it doesn't have to start with you standing behind her with a whip

You can teach her the "walk on" and "whoa" commands on line with her beside you. (Trot too)

You can also teach her these things while lunging.

Remember - reward the "try". Reward can be a relaxation, or a nice rub, or a "yes!" or other voice praise, or a food treat.

The try can be a slight motion forward (that is, she thinks of going forward and you see it in her muscles or in her intent.)

Going forward does not have to be ten minutes forward. It might be only one step at first, then maybe another one.

When you get a commitment to going forward (even 4 steps or 10 steps that look like a commitment to going forward) give her your form of reward, QUIT and do something else interesting for a few minutes, then go back to going forward.

Ideally, you would not be getting your forward by "chasing" or hitting (as in, the whip). Forward is something they do quite well, and you should not start by getting your forward by using punishment.

You can use tapping to start a forward motion - you tap with your finger on the hip, very lightly and slowly, then increase with your finger to a more insistent tapping. KEEP THAT UP until you get some motion forward... then QUIT and give a little rub on the hip. Stop, relax, then ask again until you are getting more steps and more consistency. Horses learn with this type of release. (NOTE - don't quit tapping until you get forward - i.e. not backwards or sideways as they experiment to find out what you want.)

One more thing (I'm teaching my full size paint to go forward right now and it was quite surprising how balled up he got when I started!!!) - that is, pick a time when you have some time and persevere until you get at least one step forward. Then quit. Stay patient and keep asking. Don't quit when she won't go.

The first time may be frustrating until you and she figure it out.

You can make a game out of it and have fun with it. I'd toss the whip away until you are getting some understanding about what you want. Then you can use the whip to reinforce, or use it to improve what you have.

Have fun!

 

[studiowvw]

PS - I always teach them that tapping thing on the top of their hip. That way if they're standing in a doorway in front of me, I give them a few taps to get them going forward.

It also helps when teaching to get on the trailer.

-----

Me again! Thinking about your issue again...

The reason not to use the whip to start is this:

Sounds like you have a good relationship with her and she wants to turn around and be with you (same with my Paint Spinner).

Don't wreck the relationship by using pain & threats to get her going forward.

What you want to do is teach a communication to go forward.

You want to be able to point, or say "walk", or tap gently with your finger, or start walking and have your energy/motion communicate to her that you want her to go forward.

 

[SMW]

Thanks for the tips, very helpful. I just want to make sure that you know I don't hit her whatsoever (in the means of "pain and threats") It's more along the lines of a poke. Will try tomorrow with the tapping on the hip, and the same tecnique I used to teach her "come" (standing in front of her, with the treat in view and asked her to come and if she came to me she got it, even if it was just a step. I take it that would be a good way to teach "forward" as well?)

I HAVE found that if we're inside that she won't really understand that she should move forward, outside she's terrific. Perhaps that might help too?

 

[Reignmaker Miniatures]

Does your horse know how to lunge? I find that if my horse can lunge (not free lunging in this case but on a line) and knows verbal commands on the lunge line the transition to driving is pretty simple. I move from free lunging in a round pen to lunging on line to lunging on 2 lines(long lining) then gradually shift my position while the horse walks around me until I am behind it. I haven't dealt with any confusion on forward motion in any of the horses I've started with these steps since it is a fairly logical and slow progression for them.

 

[studiowvw]

same tecnique I used to teach her "come" (standing in front of her, with the treat in view and asked her to come and if she came to me she got it, even if it was just a step. I take it that would be a good way to teach "forward" as well?)

I HAVE found that if we're inside that she won't really understand that she should move forward, outside she's terrific. Perhaps that might help too?

I wouldn't teach forward as in forward towards you and a treat. That would be a bribe. You want to teach the voice commands that you will use while driving.

Lunging is a great way to start (see above post by Reignmaker).

You could start by leading and using commands (walk, whoa, trot), then transfering to lunging. (You can start by going around with her, then easing further away from her until you are in the centre.)

Also, when inside you could take her to one side of the arena and aim to go back towards the door. That would add some impulsion to go forward. Or put a couple of treats in a bucket, go across the arena and head her toward the bucket of treats.

Horse training is the most creative thing I know! Have fun with it. What I've been having success with lately is working on something for 7 sessions in a row. Currently I'm on day 3 of harnessing/hitching Spinner (my paint). I suspect by day 7 I'll be standing on the sled while he pulls it. (OK, I'll admit he is a super-trainable horse with great confidence about learning.)

We also used the 7-day concept for a mini who wouldn't give his feet to be picked up (had to be drugged for the farrier and even then wouldn't give his right hind). First day we could only pick up one front foot. By day 7 we could pick up and pick out all 4 feet, and rasp 3 feet. A couple of days later, we got all 4 feet rasped.

I think the 7 day concept is great because

a) you know what you want to teach (in your case, going forward on command)

b) you start small (because you know you don't have to get it all in one session)

c) you develop a pattern of building from the day before

d) at 7 days, you can look at what you accomplished, then pick a new thing to work on for 7 days.

e) horses are forgiving, so if you screw up one day, you know you can do better next time

f) consistency!!!

Nate Bowers has a new DVD out on the foundation of driving. Google Nate Bowers.

I had the privilege of attending several days of a clinic on starting horses towards driving and it was an eye-opener. Awesome, awesome, AWESOME. I've ordered his video but haven't got it yet.

 

[SMW]

Once more thank you! And you've already answered my next question - how to teach to lunge. Since, well.. She lacks in that department as well lol. Tried lunging a few times and had the same reaction (turns around and goes OK mom, I moved!)

Today we went outside with an open bridle and driving reins. I started out slightly behind her but still next to her and once she got the idea I wasn't going anywhere and she'd be okay to lead, I slowly inched backwards until we were almost driving. Hopefully if I keep this up, along with teaching her commands to go forward, gee, haw, and etc, we'll be driving by summer I will invest in the DVD's, the more advice, the better!

 

[shalakominiatureshowhorses]

Once she knows how to lunge, and if she is still having problems going foward in harness, it might be the pressure on the reins.

Here is how I trained Jazzy

-First, I borrowed a surcingle (saddle and crupper) from his breeder, and he just got used to trotting with the pressure of the girth in the round pen.

-Second, I put the bridle on with the check REALLY loose. I let him trot in the round pen with the bridle and surcingle on until he got used to the bit.

-This is where your at. I put the long lines on and I didnt even put pressure on the lines, i just let them flop around. Gradually, I increased the pressure. He then got used to moving foward with pressure on the bit.

If you can, try to work in a round pen. If your not able to use one, work on lunging her. I dont really have any tips there as I dont lunge a lot LOL!

Hope this helped (probably didnt though, sorry

)

 

[studiowvw]

Hello, still thinking about this interesting question...

Like I said, horse training is the most creative thing I know!

I have a couple of yearlings here right now - half brothers to my mare Lacey. I did not need them!!! I probably shouldn't have been falling in love with some pics on the internet. However, I did... the truck was passing by about half an hour from home... I thought about getting one for company for Lacey - ended up with these two darlings, Diesel and Mustang. I tell myself I don't need this many horses, but every time I look at them, I love them more. (Still not sure how it happened!) I am calling them my winter project.

Anyways!...

I thought I would do a 7 day program on line-driving with Diesel and post the videos (I think I will start a new topic so as not to hijack yours!).

It will be interesting to see how he progresses in 7 days.

Hope it will be interesting to you to see how I do this. It will be interesting to me too, haha

 

[SMW]

I will follow your thread with great interest

 

[hobbyhorse23]

What you want to do is teach a communication to go forward.You want to be able to point, or say "walk", or tap gently with your finger, or start walking and have your energy/motion communicate to her that you want her to go forward.

Be careful teaching cues that rely on the horse being able to see you (pointing, seeing you start forward, etc.) as that just makes things harder when you transition to the blinders. Generally the easiest thing is to have someone else walk at the horse's head in a normal leading position while you drive from behind the horse and praise, praise, praise for following your voice commands. The handler eventually steps further and further away from the horse until they're being directed entirely by the person behind them.

I HAVE found that if we're inside that she won't really understand that she should move forward, outside she's terrific. Perhaps that might help too?

Absolutely! Use that motivation to help her naturally understand what you want. The best training occurs organically and in the spirit of play. Get her moving forward towards something she wants, reward her for it, and make a game out of it. Let her have fun!

Once more thank you! And you've already answered my next question - how to teach to lunge. Since, well.. She lacks in that department as well lol. Tried lunging a few times and had the same reaction (turns around and goes OK mom, I moved!)

I'm afraid if she doesn't lunge she's going to have a hard time understanding how to ground-drive. I start in-hand using the voice commands as I lead the horse, then start gradually dropping back away from them and encouraging them to go ahead without me. That turns into circling, which turns into lunging, which turns into double-lunging, which turns into long-lining and ground-driving. Voila! Each step should lead logically and easily into the next and build upon skills you've already taught the horse.

Today we went outside with an open bridle and driving reins. I started out slightly behind her but still next to her and once she got the idea I wasn't going anywhere and she'd be okay to lead, I slowly inched backwards until we were almost driving. Hopefully if I keep this up, along with teaching her commands to go forward, gee, haw, and etc, we'll be driving by summer I will invest in the DVD's, the more advice, the better!

Good for you! Be aware that "gee" and "haw" are considered draft driving terms and aren't usually used with light horses. Most people use "come" and "get" or some other command that works for them.

Leia

 

[SMW]

Terrific advice, thank you greatly

 

[Margo_C-T]

Just a thought...where do you run the driving lines through when ground driving? Since I have trained a number of horses to drive w/o ever using a 'longeing surcingle', I don't know if those have rein terrets on top of the 'saddle', but if so, and if you've been running the lines through those...don't, at least not in the early stages of ground driving. Nearly all horses are much more inclined to want to turn and face you, in that configuration! Since I use the saddle and crupper/back strap when first ground driving, I run the lines through the 'tied down'(using the wrap straps or holddown straps through/on them)tug loops, which keeps the lines lower, and along the horse's sides. Works a LOT better.

Margo

 

[targetsmom]

This is just where we are with teaching 9 4-Hers and 4 minis to ground drive, more or less at the same time. We do what Leia and Margot suggest above . We use the regular harness (because we have enough that they stay adjusted for that mini), bridles with blinkers, and run the lines through the tugs to start. ALL our minis are first taught obstacles, which includes walking and trotting on the lead on voice commands and then body language. We also start by longing them in the harness but the line attached to the halter, and some need more work here than others. Then the double longing with the lines attached to the bit. The kids don't usually get involved until the next stage where the actual ground driving starts. We can then have one of the 4-Hers handle the lead while I ground drive, and we do a TON of figure eights. Because almost all of them try turning around at some point. If all goes well (we were pleasantly surprised by one mare this week) then the kids can try the ground driving. Right now we have 3 minis that the kids can ground drive (with supervision of course) and one more ex-broodmare that still needs a bit more work. Our goals are quite different though - having minis the 4-Hers can ground drive. We proposed a ground driving class for the 4-H Fair next year.

 

[studiowvw]

Leia said:

"Be careful teaching cues that rely on the horse being able to see you (pointing, seeing you start forward, etc.) as that just makes things harder when you transition to the blinders. Generally the easiest thing is to have someone else walk at the horse's head in a normal leading position while you drive from behind the horse and praise, praise, praise for following your voice commands. The handler eventually steps further and further away from the horse until they're being directed entirely by the person behind them."

You are quite right here.

One problem with this method is when you don't have anyone to help - I'm sure I could ask someone but then would be at the mercy of someone else's schedule.

Regarding the "pointing" cue - this is only one of several cues I use.

I start out training at liberty, because I need to be able to direct them around the barnyard - they live in a large area including the barnyard.

Pointing is useful at liberty. It's a transition when on line.

I want them to have several cues that mean go forward, including pointing (for at liberty or going through gates), clucking (sound), tapping (which comes in useful when they're standing ahead of me in a doorway, or trailer loading), and obviously voice commands (which will get more use later). Also, if all else fails (e.g. aggressive behaviour) a stick, whip or rope with a popper can certainly reinforce the demand to "Move NOW!"

Because my horses live free (on several hundred acres) I need to have a good relationship and communication most of all. If my training is boring, incomprehensible to the horse, or based on pain to get results (e.g. using a lunge whip to get "forwards"), it would be hard to catch them when I wanted them!

EDIT: I guess what I'm trying to say is the beginning doesn't necessarily have to look like the end result. You are quite right that pointing and using your body will not be useful when blinders are on. However, as training advances, communication can be quite subtle while driving - through voice, the reins, and intention. Starting out with a habit of communication sets up a good relationship for the future.

Margo - a very good point! I have an old harness saddle and girth that I use for training, and I've added rings down on the sides. Running the lines through these side rings are much more useful than running them through the terrets on top.