Dwarf pricing

[ohmt]

No, which is why removing all known carriers is what most responsible breeders do to greatly reduce the risk of getting a dwarf foal.

 

[Lizzie]

I have never actually heard anyone, saying their horses are not carriers. There is no way to know until a horse produces one. I think it would be silly to suggest everyone stop breeding, but certainly stop breeding known carriers.

Lizzie

 

[frostedpineminis]

I was wondering if anybody that has placed a dwarf in a "safe" home for lack of a better word, has ever got the new owners to sign a contract along the lines of no breeding and that if they can no longer take care of them they return them back to you. The people that are taking my little girl have a filly from a previous year and I get monthly updates on her and pictures of her with people in long term care, A perfect home where neither of them will get bred and they see people all of the time and bring happiness to people, but I worry about our little angel and would like something in writing just to be extra safe just because of her extra care.

If you have a contract like I am talking about could you contact me it could even be one for a mare that cant be bred because of scar tissue or something, it would make me feel much better.

I also have one other question, I live in canada and started looking for a forever home for our dwarf the day she hit the ground, not because we didnt want her but because of what was best for her, but, I had so much trouble finding places that were safe and educated and the list goes on, long story short, how do you find homes for them other than advertise them and have people get mad and email you with how wrong it is and how bad you are...I havent advertised one but I am sure you would get comments and also people that think they can make money off of something that you are trying to adopt out. I just wish there was like a foster website for canada or the US, people that are willing to take them in or something, I dont know what would work but maybe that would get a lot of them off the horse ads and into quality homes???

I dont have the facilities now, but I would one day like to return the gift that my foster family gave to my little baby and me.

 

[Hill Haven Farms]

On a totally different note... My lil' Dwarf carries the price tag of: PRICELESS!! He has taught me SO much and is A LOT of work..(bandage/leg brace changes every 2-3 days), but so darn worth every moment. He is going NO WHERE!

Attached a pic of him trying on his halloween costume. He's about 17.5" tall now and 7 mo. He was gelded at 7 weeks due to needing a hernia repaired. So we figured while he was under (gas anesthesia with a small animal gas machine!) we'd go ahead and get rid of items he wouldn't be needing.

 

[frostedpineminis]

how long does he need the braces for?

 

[MindyLee]

I was wondering if anybody that has placed a dwarf in a "safe" home for lack of a better word, has ever got the new owners to sign a contract along the lines of no breeding and that if they can no longer take care of them they return them back to you. The people that are taking my little girl have a filly from a previous year and I get monthly updates on her and pictures of her with people in long term care, A perfect home where neither of them will get bred and they see people all of the time and bring happiness to people, but I worry about our little angel and would like something in writing just to be extra safe just because of her extra care.

If you have a contract like I am talking about could you contact me it could even be one for a mare that cant be bred because of scar tissue or something, it would make me feel much better.

I also have one other question, I live in canada and started looking for a forever home for our dwarf the day she hit the ground, not because we didnt want her but because of what was best for her, but, I had so much trouble finding places that were safe and educated and the list goes on, long story short, how do you find homes for them other than advertise them and have people get mad and email you with how wrong it is and how bad you are...I havent advertised one but I am sure you would get comments and also people that think they can make money off of something that you are trying to adopt out. I just wish there was like a foster website for canada or the US, people that are willing to take them in or something, I dont know what would work but maybe that would get a lot of them off the horse ads and into quality homes???

I dont have the facilities now, but I would one day like to return the gift that my foster family gave to my little baby and me.

On your question about how to advertise a dwarf for sale without being attacted by emailers....

If it was me and or because I am wanting to help others to be educated... this is how I would personally like to see a add or make one myself.

EXAMPLE:

Dwarf miniature horse for (Sale/Free/Small adoption fee)

Cute little 1 yr old buckskin dwarf mini filly that stands at only 20 inchs tall. Some leg and teeth issues but not bad.

WARNING new home will be heavely interviewed. Please note that ALL mini dwarfs are special needs minis that require lots of education, and most times expencive veterinary care. My dwarf mini will only go to a non breeding home that is well educated, knowledgeable, and fully aware of what responsibilities that it takes to properly care for her. I will ask for referances as well as Im looking for the best home for my little gal. If you are that person who fully understands all that is requested above and is willing to take on this type of resposibility, PLEASE contact me for more information and lots of pictures.

Thanks MindyLee

 

(Picture of her here, body, teeth, legs)

 

Right there, should be enough info to educate and inform a person who has no ideal what a dwarf is and what to expect. It also grabs that attention of someone who is educated with dwarfs to already expect some of the request that I am asking for. And it also takes any questions/concerns/attacts that other breeders/farms/peoples who dont know me that may have jumped the gun and was going to email me about why I am selling to just anyone. It may very well scare someone away from contacting me with this type of add, but again it may not. Dwarfs are going to be harder to place in a perfect home to live out their days, but putting the right information will also help too. When I see a add that says minimum dwarf, I still see in my head a dwarf with vet isses no matter what the seller says. I personally think to myself, a dwarf is a dwarf no matter the isses if hardly noticable or compleatly disfigured. Most folks who do take in dwarfs dont see that, they love them no matter what and do what it takes to make the dwarf conferable. And yes, many out there may say not everyone thinks like me and im just dreaming. Well again, this is how I would make a add, and if it takes awhile to place my dwarf in a home then so be it. If I need to find it a new home right away because of what ever the emergancy is, then I would contact Chances Miniature horse Rescue and ask them what to do or how to go about finding a proper home. I garentee they will help.

This is just my opinion and how I look at things and others my not agree, but at least I hope I helped a little as "one of those persons" out there who dose see adds for dwarfs. I do kinda jump the gun on my thoughts BUT will never email and attack a person unless they put info that makes me do so, like for example, Cute mini stud that stands only 23" tall. will make awesome tiny babys for you" (with a picture of a mini dwarf that clearly shows a dwarf in the picture and his many resaulting dwarf foals.) You bet I will email and not excatly attack, but strongly inform with any and all knowledge I can provide. Its up to the breeder to either take my info and use it or disgaurd it and continue their dwarf breedings. But at least I know I tried.

 

I can say that I do try my very best with informing uneducated people out there about mini equines of pet quality, show quality, breed quality, and dwarfs. I work at TSC, and everyone knows me as the gal with minis. I do get LOTS of questions, and even had folks show me or tell me about the dwarfs they would love to have. I do immedintly inform them about what is all involved in owning and caring for one, and thankfully they change their minds once they realize what is all involved. These same folks are the ones who wants one to be a mascote for their farm or to let it live in their house cause dwarfs are so cute. And all in the same 10 minute conversation, just complained to me about feed prices and vet expencses of their other horses or animals.

 

Im also thinking instead of doing the equine events with promoting my farm to the public in the future at work, I just may do a demostration on mini horses, their conformations, dwarfisum, registries, and any and all info I can help out folks who have no ideal about the breed. I also have a friend that has a dwarf that I can show to people to help see in person what I am explaining and compair it to a better quality conformation horse. That way Im helping out by putting out that important info to the future buyer or member to the wonderful world of miniature equines no matter what they decide to add to their family.

 

[LAminiatures]

I have been looking for a dwarf companion for my dwarf and I am shocked at what people are asking for them. I went to a barn to look at another horse and when I saw Sam and his snotty nose, lice, feet and how thin he was I couldn't leave without him. He is the sweetest little guy and will be with me forever. I do strongly agree that they are special needs and you will have vet bills, plenty of extra work but all that outweighs the reward and love owning a dwarf.

I paid 300 for my dwarf 5 years ago. I thought for sure finding another one would be cheaper than 1000 plus shipping.

 

[Mona]

OMG Hill Haven, your little guy is BEAUTIFUL!! What a sweetheart! Have you contacted anyone about "Magic Shoes" for him to try? Maybe after wearing those leg braces all these months it's beyond helping to strengthen up now, but I would sure check into it.

 

[Chelley]

So I have to ask, what is everyone's opinions on "world's smallest horse" Einstein? I would assume he is considered a dwarf?? I know nothing about him other than seeing pics and video after he was born. Does he have health issues? He looks absolutely adorable. Who wouldn't want him!? LIke I said before, I can see why people that know nothing about dwarfs and their many health concerns would fall in love and purchase one spur of the moment at an auction...then I am sure be very surprised later at the special care/vet expenses they require. I didn't know any of that before joining the forum and I have to admit if I had that kind of money to spend and had seen one for sell, I would have probably been struck by the "awww" factor and wanted one. Thank goodness I never seen one I could afford before I learned what care they require or I would have been one of those that fell in love and didn't know at all what I was getting into. Not sure how education can be done to prevent it from happening though.

 

[maestoso]

The top breeders absolutely do not remove their carriers from their programs. The top breeders simply do not share when one of their horses have produced a dwarf. I think if by "most responsible breeders" you mean the people who are speaking up on this forum, you are correct. But if you look at the National and World show results. Most of the breeders who produced all those open grands, are not active on this forum, and I can assure you that if they had a mare that was a consistent quality producer, they would not remove it from their program because it had 1 dwarf.

 

[ohmt]

And I would not consider those people to be responsible breeders therefore my comment stands. There ARE some breders producing World Champions on here that have gelded some of their top stallions for producing a dwarf and that have taken out top producing mares from their breeding program for producing a dwarf. I don't know how many 'top breeders' are producing dwarves and still using the sire and dam in their breeding programs because they are obviously keeping it hush hush so how would I know? BUT, to me, those breeders are not responsible at all and are doing a huge disservice to the industry. I don't care how many champions a stallion has produced, if he sires a dwarf then he is absolutely not worthy of breeding. No way.

 

[targetsmom]

I would suggest that those of you who think all dwarf carriers should be removed from breeding should read CAREFULLY all the questions and responses on the Dwarfism Forum here on LB. For one thing, John Eberth (expert on this topic) estimates that between 25-40% of all minis (that might be in the US, not sure about worldwide) are carriers. So if you geld your stallion for being a carrier, how will you know that the one you replace him with will not be a carrier too? A poll done here (by me) in 2007 showed that 42% of the forum members that answered had had a dwarf foal or fetus produced on their farm.

If miniature breeders in the past had eliminated all dwarf carriers from their herd, I hate to think of where the miniature horse would be now.

Be careful what you wish for.....

ETA: I am in no way supporting breeding FOR dwarfs though, which was the OP's topic I think.

 

[ohmt]

I actually have read all of the questions and responses on the dwarf forum (multiple times) which is one of the reasons I came to form my opinion that all known dwarf carriers (until there is a test) need to be culled from breeding. It is my opinion, of course, and everyone is entitled to theirs. But, to me, anyone who knowingly breeds a carrier for the dwarfism gene is an irresponsible breeder.

Now, once there is a test, that is a whole different story. Until then, the risks of breeding a known carrier is much too high for my taste.

 

[ohmt]

Was thinking about what you said targetsmom about not taking out the estimated 25-40% of all dwarf carriers because you were afraid of where the miniature horse industry may go.

Does anyone know the approximated miniature horse population from last year? I know it's thousands and last I checked, miniature horses were the third or fourth most populous 'breed' of horse. Now with show quality horses selling for less than what I paid for my siamese cat, it would probably be beneficial if a large majority of the miniature horse population were removed from breeding anyway. Now you cut the number of miniature horses in half to simulate culling from breeding (that is very high, but just as an example) , you still have thousands of minis without the dwarf gene left. You can't honestly say that out of those thousands we could not still breed better and better horses conformationally as well as potentially knocking out dwarfism. There will still be a lot of high quality horses that will never create a dwarf or dwarf carrier that could potentially produce a dwarf later.

My great grandparents gelded a Wittmaacks Mickey Mouse son (not saying he got the gene from MM, but that was when MM was very popular and his get sold for quite a bit) in the 80's after paying $5000 for him, when he produced a dwarf. I still envy them for that.

I can't wait until the tests for the dwarf genes are available. Then people won't have to stop breeding carriers as long as they utilize the tests.

 

[targetsmom]

ohmt- I wasn't referring so much to the FUTURE as I was to the past. And I certainly agree with you that the test will help!!

And I think Lizzie asked if anyone had ever posted that their mini was most likely NOT a dwarf carrier. I only remember 2 (there might have been more of course) stallions ever named on here as likely NOT dwarf carriers because they had 50 or more foals without a dwarf. One of them was the sire of one of our mares: Little Kings Echos Omega, a Buck Echo son, (posted by his owner at the time) and the other was Alvadars Double Destiny (posted by John Eberth on the Dwarfism Forum).

 

[Lizzie]

Interestingly, there is a test for Chondrodysplasia in cattle at UCDavis. This very closely resembles two types of dwarfism we see in Minis. I wrote to them today, asking about it. We will see what they say.

Lizzie

 

[frostedpineminis]

Was thinking about what you said targetsmom about not taking out the estimated 25-40% of all dwarf carriers because you were afraid of where the miniature horse industry may go.

Does anyone know the approximated miniature horse population from last year? I know it's thousands and last I checked, miniature horses were the third or fourth most populous 'breed' of horse. Now with show quality horses selling for less than what I paid for my siamese cat, it would probably be beneficial if a large majority of the miniature horse population were removed from breeding anyway. Now you cut the number of miniature horses in half to simulate culling from breeding (that is very high, but just as an example) , you still have thousands of minis without the dwarf gene left. You can't honestly say that out of those thousands we could not still breed better and better horses conformationally as well as potentially knocking out dwarfism. There will still be a lot of high quality horses that will never create a dwarf or dwarf carrier that could potentially produce a dwarf later.

My great grandparents gelded a Wittmaacks Mickey Mouse son (not saying he got the gene from MM, but that was when MM was very popular and his get sold for quite a bit) in the 80's after paying $5000 for him, when he produced a dwarf. I still envy them for that.

I can't wait until the tests for the dwarf genes are available. Then people won't have to stop breeding carriers as long as they utilize the tests.

ok, sounds good on a larger scale...but what if you had to remove 40% of your herd, I think that on a personal scale, it is a bit of a different story. I think that we need to be careful about calling people "irresponsible breeders" until we know more about dwarfism, we cant honestly say that it is both parents contributing and or what exactly causes it, we dont have the research to point fingers.

 

[ohmt]

Yes, it IS both sire and dam that contribute-that has been scientifically studied and established. I have about 40 horses and I usually breed for anywhere between 2-8 foals a year. I would be more than happy to remove any and all known carriers from my breeding program (in fact myself and my family has done so). The 40% is a high number and the probability that people will find out that 40% of their horses are carriers without testing is very, very highly unlikely so that isn't even something that we have to worry about here. When there are tests, THEN owners/breeders might find that 40% of their horses are carriers (I think it will be a lower percentage than that personally), but they will have the knowledge to breed responsibly.

What causes the various dwarfism types are homozygous recessive dwarf genes. Last I heard, many of those genes have likely been located and I am hoping we will have tests soon. When there are tests, I will have no problem with people breeding their carriers as long as they test and are responsible. As of right now, with the scientific information that has been given to the public, I have formed my opinions that I have expressed previously.

 

[Lizzie]

You are indeed correct, ohmt. Many of the dwarfism genes are already known. I did hear back from UCDavis on the subject. At the moment, the testing is only available for cattle. They are not researching dwarfism in equines and it doesn't look as though we will have a test, any time soon.

So what do we do? We do what our individual consciences dictate I suspect.

Lizzie

 

[frostedpineminis]

ok, lets say that it is from both parents... still there are multiple forms of dwarfism and in that case may be multiple genes to test for, will it simply be a dwarf gene and dwarf gene creates a dwarf or will it be that a gene that would create a "type A" dwarf and a gene that creates a "type B" dwarf matched together will not combine to create a dwarf, I think that we are taking a complex problem and turning it into something small. I would think that if 25-40% of the population was carriers that we would see way more dwarfs, especially since we are technically using "dwarf" descendants of large horses to create a miniature breed and that it would be much easier to isolate this dwarf gene.

I did not say that it was a good idea to breed horses that have created a dwarf, I am just saying that it is a little harsh and unsupported to call people "irresponsible" based on the small amount of research that we have. I just dont think that it is going to be as easy as a quick CARRIER stamp on the registeration papers to 100% eliminate dwarfism.

Also, in the dwarf forum it was stated by john that "Dominant and recessive genes function the same way in all organisms; plants, animals, invertabrates, bacteria, viruses etc" so how is it that 2 dwarf humans can have children that are normal sized?