My dog is on Heartguard Plus, always has been, but periodically I would go to my vet and purchase a tab of Droncet (sp) for $55.00 for her to cover other worms. Seems to me there should be a better way which would cost me a lot less. She loves to be outside most of the day and finds eating horse poop is a wonderful thing. I know some people use ivermectin so I would like to know about using that for Amy. I shop at Tractor Supply but don't seem to see it there for dogs, but they have it for horses and other livestock. Someone please enlighten me on what de-wormer to get for her. Thank you!
De-worming Dogs Question
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drmatthewtaylor
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No dewormer will kill every species of worm. Some have a broader spectrum than do others, but nothing gets absolutely everything.
Droncit is the trade name of praziquantel. It is the only one dose wormer that will kill tapeworms.
Tapeworms can be acquired either from fleas or by eating already dead rodents that have the worm in their belly at the right life stage. Tapeworms come from fleas 95% of the time.
I sympathize with the $55 charge, but I don't think that's over charged as long as it came with good information. Unfortunately, if it came with no information and the fleas were not dealt with at the same time then the worms would return in 30-60 days.
Dr Taylor
Droncit is the trade name of praziquantel. It is the only one dose wormer that will kill tapeworms.
Tapeworms can be acquired either from fleas or by eating already dead rodents that have the worm in their belly at the right life stage. Tapeworms come from fleas 95% of the time.
I sympathize with the $55 charge, but I don't think that's over charged as long as it came with good information. Unfortunately, if it came with no information and the fleas were not dealt with at the same time then the worms would return in 30-60 days.
Dr Taylor
anoki
Well-Known Member
Be VERY, VERY careful with ivermectin, especially since Amy is a GSD....it can be deadly...
Ivermectin is NOT labeled for dogs...anyone treating their dogs with ivermectin, they are using the liquid for cattle. DO NOT USE PASTE IVERMECTIN for dogs.....I don't care what anyone says about how many times they've used it with no problems, that is extremely dangerous. Dogs need a very, very small amount, and it is very easy to overdose them.
Have I used Ivermectin? Once, to clear up something that nothing else would touch....and I've never used it again. Yes, it is cheap, but there are a lot of risks (from temporary paralysis and blindness to death) associated with Ivermectin, that I'm just not willing to take chances with. There is a test that can determine whether your dog carries the genetic marker that they believe is associated with Ivermectin sensitivity. GSDs are on the list of dogs with the affected gene though they are now only listed at 10% of the dogs tested in the breed (I don't know how many dogs are actually tested for this....). They do not need to be on the list of sensitive dogs to have problems if they get overdosed, it's just the ones that are sensitive will have worse side effects than others.
To find more about the test go to this site
http://www.vetmed.ws...-VCPL/test.aspx
I know there have been studies done successfully treating dogs that are positive for heartworm with Ivermectin, and Ivermectin can, in the right hands, be a good way to deworm dogs. BUT it comes with a lot of risks that many people aren't aware of.
~kathryn
Becky
Well-Known Member
Marty, you might look into using Iverhart Max. That's heartworm med my vet put my dogs on and it's ivermectin/pyrantel pamoate/praziquantel. It should take care of all the worms.
Good heavens K I am soooooo glad you told me about these dangers of this. I'm floored and didn't have a clue. It does pay to ask around here that's for sure.
Becky I have asked my vet about that heartworm meds too and for some reason they just carry Heartguard Plus
Thanks all for this information.
Becky I have asked my vet about that heartworm meds too and for some reason they just carry Heartguard Plus
Thanks all for this information.
anoki
Well-Known Member
I would have hated to hear something happened to Amy because you weren't aware of any issues.
I'm not saying Ivermectin doesn't work, and that in the right hands it isn't a good thing...I just find too many people are blase when using it. I asked my vet about it several years ago (at the time I knew about the sensitivity thing) because I, too, was looking to save a bit of money, and he told me a story from a couple of weeks previous of a kennel owner who wanted to save some money and went and got some Ivermectin to treat all her dogs (I believe they were Shar-Peis, not that it really matters....). Of course it was on a weekend, and they ended up with the clinic over full of dogs in various stages of distress....paralysis, blindness, lethargy, etc...I don't think any of them died, he never said, just said it wasn't the cheap alternative that they were looking for. When the same vet put my dog on it, he told me specifically what to look for if there were any problems....of course I was super paranoid using it....
Would I use it again? Possibly...but I would do it with my vet's recommendation and guidance....
~kathryn
Me too- I would never use ivermectin on any dog!! I know most of the 'cattle dog' breeds- Border Collies, Aussies, etc... cannot have it. When I worm the horses those empty tubes go straight into a bag and out to the dumpster. I dont even set them down, as I have one dog that would love to just walk off with it..... I know someone whose Aussie did that and chewed it a little on it and she became extremely ill.
brasstackminis
Well-Known Member
anoki, I think you mean specifically Ivermectin paste? Ivermectin and pyrantel are the ingredients of Heartgard Plus. Ivermectin comes in several forms. I buy the Ivermec brand Ivermectin injectible wormer from the vet (or a friend with cattle) in a 10mL Syringe. I could have bought only one cc but I just got extra... I mix 100mL (cc) of propylene glycol (about $25 for a gallon) to 1mL of Ivermectin. THEN the dose is like this. I give 0.1mL of the new soultion per 10lbs. I use a diabetic syringe. I got the doseage from the vet who basically said here it is...I said nothing. The collie/shepherd breeds are not supposed to get ivermectin because there is a breakdown, in some dogs of these breeds, of their blood-brain barriers and too much ivermectin gets to theri brain and kills them. My vet said if I had given them the ivermectin and they were still alive, they did not have that problem. The saying is "White feet, don't treat" I have miniature australian shepherds and mini dachshunds. My friend breeds German Shepherd show dogs. She dilutes the ivermectin a 10th less...but she is dosing bigger dogs. No problems here...but I did not know when I started giving them the ivermectin that it could have been a problem.
I have heard people having their dogs overdose on ivermectin by eating horse poo after horses were treated. Not sure how true this is, but sounds plausible enough for me to ban the poo eating for 3 days after worming...I just let it go after that. I agree that the paste is virtually impossible to dose correctly. The liquid stuff tastes horrible (so the dogs say) and I guess that is why they wrap it up in $50 worth of yummy chewies, but they like the Strongid T (I get from the vet for horses and give 1mL per 5 lbs) so I give them the ivermectin first and wash it down with the pyrantel. My vet said that he would rather I wormed them like I am than not at all...he said he understands that with 15+/- dogs, Heartgard is cost prohibitive. It is not that it is wrong...it is just that A) the vets are supposed to sell the stuff to make money B) with improper doses, it can be a problem. My friend with mini doxies was very freaked out about the exact weight of her dogs and not overdosing. I looked at the packages of Heartgard and saw the wide weight range a package covered. So I asked the vet about it. They said that it was better to dose a little higher than a little lower...that is like guessing a dog is 12lbs and dosing for 15lbs vs. 10lbs. I also have the safe guard (the doseage for goats) and it is also 1mL per 5 lbs but for 3 days in a row. I have not had too much problems with fleas so have not worried about tapes (unless I see their evidence).
It is a little bit of money up front, but soooo much cheaper in the long run. I hope that helps. Oh and I have a bunch of friends with dogs and we all chip in an get the stuff to mix it. 100mL of ivermectin goes a long way at 0.1cc/10lbs even with the numbers I have!
I have heard people having their dogs overdose on ivermectin by eating horse poo after horses were treated. Not sure how true this is, but sounds plausible enough for me to ban the poo eating for 3 days after worming...I just let it go after that. I agree that the paste is virtually impossible to dose correctly. The liquid stuff tastes horrible (so the dogs say) and I guess that is why they wrap it up in $50 worth of yummy chewies, but they like the Strongid T (I get from the vet for horses and give 1mL per 5 lbs) so I give them the ivermectin first and wash it down with the pyrantel. My vet said that he would rather I wormed them like I am than not at all...he said he understands that with 15+/- dogs, Heartgard is cost prohibitive. It is not that it is wrong...it is just that A) the vets are supposed to sell the stuff to make money B) with improper doses, it can be a problem. My friend with mini doxies was very freaked out about the exact weight of her dogs and not overdosing. I looked at the packages of Heartgard and saw the wide weight range a package covered. So I asked the vet about it. They said that it was better to dose a little higher than a little lower...that is like guessing a dog is 12lbs and dosing for 15lbs vs. 10lbs. I also have the safe guard (the doseage for goats) and it is also 1mL per 5 lbs but for 3 days in a row. I have not had too much problems with fleas so have not worried about tapes (unless I see their evidence).
It is a little bit of money up front, but soooo much cheaper in the long run. I hope that helps. Oh and I have a bunch of friends with dogs and we all chip in an get the stuff to mix it. 100mL of ivermectin goes a long way at 0.1cc/10lbs even with the numbers I have!
anoki
Well-Known Member
No actually, it is the liquid form I AM talking about. Heartgard isn't available here, at least not to my knowledge (none of the vets I use carry it), so we don't have Ivermectin based dewormers available for our canines....unless we treat them OFF LABEL with Ivermectin liquid for cattle.
I have heard many breeders in the US warn against using Heartgard, but I guess it is still available (I didn't think it was), so it must be deemed 'ok'. I don't know a lot about Heartgard, but I'm guessing the amount of Ivermectin in it is pretty minute.
As I said in one of my earlier posts, I'm not saying it is or isn't a good way to deworm, I'm saying be aware of the side effects when using it, so you know when there is an issue...
~kathryn
mydaddysjag
Well-Known Member
Marty, if your interested in trying something like iverhart and your vet doesnt carry it, ask them for a prescription for it. My vet only carries heartguard, but we have a dog who absolutely wont eat it. Instead of a huge fight every month, the vet just wrote me a prescription for iverhart that I order online. Its also MUCH cheaper than getting it through my vet. Since we spend a good hunk of money at the vets throughout the year, he doesnt mind.
Matt73
Well-Known Member
Kathryn, Heartgard is available in Canada and has been for many years. I use Advantage Multi.
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anoki
Well-Known Member
Thanks Matt. It's never been suggested to me by any of my vets, which is why I wasn't aware it was available up here....never ever used it (and never heard about it until I heard people talking about it in the US)....
I used to use Advantage Multi, until I had a dog react to it, so I switched to Revolution. Both are good, imo...
~kathryn
I work at Tractor Supply and always have folks coming in and asking about the ivromection cause their vet told them to come get it here. Soon as they ask me about it, I say I would never use that on my dog as it could kill her. They always respond "the vet said" and I always say the vet is stupid! He/she dont own your dog(s) you do and I wouldnt do it. I say if he/she says ya can jump off a cliff and be fine, would ya do it? Most times I change their minds and take them to the dog isle and sell them something way safer and ment for dogs. We carry a 12 month supply of of a wormer that comes in a pill that covers, tape, round, hook, and lung worms for $50. I sell them that usally or a safegaurd 3 day dose that also takes care of them 4 also for $15.
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