Continuing Conversation on Dwarf Birth

[Greystone]

Thank you all for your words of support and love...it really helped. Ebony is going to be kept seperate for a while and given extra love. Opinions here please (be nice): I have read the dwarf gene is from both parents. So does that mean I shouldn't breed Ebony again? Because her birthing went smooth, I was thinking of rebreeding her to a different stallion I have. If this conversation leans toward a go ahead, should I breed her on her next cycle?

Thank you all for all the support and wisdom.

 

[Danielle_E.]

What you are asking people to comment on is truly a personal decision. Some will say they would never use the mare or use the stallion again as breeding animals to each other or to breed with others. Some will have the opinion that they would re-breed the mare to another stallion, some would breed the stallion to other mares. I am sure the argument would come up that if you did re-breed the mare and you sold the resulting foal, would you disclose the history of the mare or stallion, whichever and some will surely say that "you are not bettering the breed so why take the chance"...I know what I would do, put you truly are opening a kettle of fish by asking opinions becausel, lol, in past threads about this issue, it got rather HOT!

: If you are keeping the resulting foal for yourself, then your decision only affects you, your mare, and the resulting foal. Are you prepared to go through this again IF it were the outcome a second time and or you also lost the mare? Perhaps the resulting foal would be born healthy as well. Breeding is ALWAYS a gamble, there are absolutely no guarantees no matter what As I said I think it's a very personal decision that only you can make, based on your knowledge and the responsibility you are willing to take for the animal you will be bringing into this world, etc. etc. etc.

 

[Miniv]

I agree with Danielle. This thread will most likely become a hotbed....and what you are asking is a very personal decision for a breeder to make.

MA

 

[Tapestry Minis]

Very well said Danielle :aktion033:

Dittos!!!

 

[starleemay]

I'm just going to tell you what I did with my mare. She had 2 foals that were normal. Then she had a dwarf. I bred her 2 more times & she had 2 more normal foals. She is bred to foal again this year. I never bred her again to the stallion that she had the dwarf with. All her foals have been fillies. :saludando:

 

[Janis]

Hi Diana,

I'll jump in here. I have been told by a few people that have been in the mini business many, many years that it takes a dwarf gene from both parents to produce a dwarf. I have done alot of reading & internet surfing myself & I believe this to be true. This is my opinion - if you have a stallion that has never produced a dwarf and has NO dwarf characteristics, then if you wanted to breed her I'd say go for it. Now, I do believe that a carrier of the dwarf gene can show NO signs of it whatsoever. You will never know for sure until they produce a dwarf.

You will get many different opinions on this subject. I believe that you must do what you think is best.

Good luck,

Janis

 

[Greystone]

Thanks for the responses and if it they stop here that is ok. Ebony is a little one 30"ish and has breeding from what I could interprete as possible dwarf lines. With that in mind I will keep her as "Auntie" Ebony.

 

[nootka]

Before I would go so far as to give you advice like this, I would want to get a good visual on both the parents. I understand if you want to do this privately.

I have so far, been able to "see" dwarf traits in almost every horse that has produced one, if not in both parents, at least in one of them. there are many traits that others call "acceptable" and I myself don't. I had a little filly here with three of my "unacceptable" traits and as if one of them (an underbite) wasn't enough, the heavy bone for her height and high dome on her forehead (not placed low between the eyes, it was closer to her ears) made me come to the conclusion that she carried a dwarf gene, and could pass it. I had people tell me they thought she was fine, but just telling you my decision. She is now a happy, loved pet.

I am a very small breeder as in I only have two mares that are breeding age, and often have just one foal per year. I can't afford to "play around" with things that make me suspicious.

I've had minis for 12 years now, and before that, I had friends that had them, and so my experience in observing them and some of the dwarf births in a few larger herds (as well as smaller ones), goes back to about 1990. Even though I didn't know "minis" per se, I knew horses, and I could see the flawed conformation which seemed to be indicative of what had come together to make these dwarfs. I was a bit surprised in a few cases, but most times, the proportions are off just enough (and not uniformly) that a dwarf is not a complete surprise.

So if you'd like to send photos of both the parents of the dwarf baby as well as the new sire, I would give you my opinion on whether to breed them or not. Myself, I would tend not to just because I do have a very small operation, and even if it were my most favorite and best-bred mare, I would tend to want to "not" breed her again, to anyone.

[email protected] is my email or you can send links to pics to my PM.

(pointing out that I am not a genetic scientist, none of my observations or opinions are based on anything but my knowledge of horse conformation as well as an "average" for Miniature proportions and conformation. I have no scientific proof to back up any of my observations, and I also don't make money breeding Miniatures. Probably never will, so my decisions are not based on any financial need nor competition in the market, they are more directly as a result of concern for the breed as well as my own horse's well-being)

Liz M.

 

[Bluerocket]

Personal opinion only here --- if she were mine, I would not breed her again.

I personally own two dwarves -- I did not breed either of them -- but I did purchase one at his mother's side. I was ignorant at the time, and did not realize he was for sure a dwarf - and I sold that mare to someone else -- the mare was to be a child's pet - but she could also have been bred. I don't know. If I were able to go back and do it again, I would keep the mare and never breed her again.

I love my two dwarves - I bet that if they had the chance to be NORMAL minis - they would jump at that chance.

nuff said -- let your personal conscience be your guide.

JJay

 

[sfmini]

I will not voice an opinion on this one way or another but I will say that the 'information' you have on the cause of dwarfism is all speculation and not in any way scientifically proven as the genes for dwarfism have never been isolated and studied. This is the research that John Eberth is currently working on, and he is only working on one type of dwarfism.

There are different types of dwarves, like there are in humans.

Off to put on the flame retardant suit.

 

[backwoodsnanny]

Well I too will add my 2 cents worth we bought a mare in foal and she gave us what I now know was a dwarf We were very new to minis at the time so I relied on my vet. Equine specialists and supposedly the best in the State and I agree with that assessment. Anyway, we left the mare open the following year and did breed her to a different stallion the next year. She did not have a dwarf but did have our precious Helen who was born with no eyes. I will never breed a known dwarf producer again to another stallion. Helen is far from a dwarf but she does suffer from a developmental birth defect and this is enough for me to say her mom will never be bred again and neither will she if I can do anything to be sure it doesnt happen. So having a dwarf indicates to me that the parent may have foals with other problems even if the babies dont appear to be full blown dwarves. Again as I said purely an owners decision but that is why I wont sell Helen's mother without the new owner knowing her history. I truthfully think many owners sell mares who are known dwarf producers and just say nothing. I know that is what happened to us. They bred her back and sold her in foal and it cost us thousands of dollars. I do also believe that it takes two but since they dont wear the dwarf gene on the outside where it can be seen I would never risk it again.

 

[Chamomile]

Good idea Greystone! I feel you are being very responsible

:

:

I'll just add that we decided not to re-breed our mare that had the dwarf Bing Cherry... and as stated we had the stallion gelded. Lips are now zipped!!

:

 

[FoRebel]

I'm not going to give advice on wether or not to continue breeding horses that produce dwarfs..... In my own situation I have already made up my mind that IF we ever have a dwarf I will have no problem gelding the stud and removing the mare from the breeding program. IMO, I, personally, would never breed a dwarf producing stud or mare.....

That being said I do have a mare that I am breeding that *MIGHT* be a dwarf producer... I found info on her *POSSIBLY* having a dwarf... I talked with the original owner who was also the last one to breed her and was told the 3 foals she's had were *NOT* dwarfs at all... So I am basically playing russian roulette with breeding this mare. *IF* she does produce a dwarf the stud WILL be gelded and she'll never be bred again and we'll be keeping the dwarf for it's entire life... Lots of responsiblities that come with the *russian roulette* of breeding possible dwarf producers!

 

[Joyce]

Personally I would breed again but not to the same stallion.

Joyce

 

[horsehug]

Here is an excellent thread from a year ago from Little King Farm on this topic for those of you who may not have been here or read it.

http://minihorse.ipbhost.com/index.php?sho...c=51169&hl=

Susan O.

 

[tagalong]

IMO, I, personally, would never breed a dwarf producing stud or mare.....

But you may be and not know it. I find it a bit puzzling when we proclaim that we would never breed any mares or stallions that may produce dwarfs... as we probably already are and the genetic roulette wheel has simply not come up with the right number at the right time and in the right place.

IMHO most if not all of the mini lines will have the dwarf genetics running through them... as the gene pool started from a very small base with obvious dwarfs and some more minimal ones contributing. And from them would have come horses that did not express the characteristics but carried the possibilities...

You may never know that you have a dwarf-producing cross until the little one is laying in the straw blinking up at you... and the same mare and stallion may have produced many normal foals previously... it is all a gamble and a crap shoot.

:

Thanks for the link to the Little King article!

 

[Nancy G]

I personally know of four, two that are top well known, stallions (One a National Champion) that have sired dwarf foals. But, they have also sired some gorgeous foals that are in the show ring and Champions themselves. Many people have these horses and I`m sure, don`t have a clue and possibly they will never get a dwarf?

A forum member had a dwarf foal last year after breeding her mare to an outside stallion. I do believe that stallion is still used for breeding. Maybe she will reply to this post.

I totally agree with the post by tagalong Likely many lines carry the gene and most breeders will never know all the horses that are and have sired or produced dwarfs. By "looking" at the two Champion horses that I know of, you could never tell they carry a dwarf gene. No way! Beautiful stallions.

Maybe someday there will be a a test to comfirm this gene. That would be great. Then we will all know!