Conformation terms - Can someone explain

[countrymini]

I love seeing people give they're critic on other peoples horses so I can learn, but there are a couple of terms I still don't understand. So could someone show me a picture of a "decent shoulder" and well angled hips as opposed to ones that aren't. Even a diagram would be good. Thanks

 

[targetsmom]

I will use the same photos of Max that I used to show a high neck set because they also show the shoulder angle and the two usually go together. This first photo takn at 4 days of age also shows a nice balance to the body: shoulder, body (withers to hip) and rear end (hip to point of buttock) all equal. The shoulder is "laid back" from where the neck ties in to the withers. Also the croup (rear end) is flat and long: the line from the point of the hip to the point of the buttock is long and parallel to the ground. However, the angle of the rear legs would NOT be desirable in an older horse - but you can see in the next photo that he grows into them. Ideally, if you run a line up along the back side of the hind leg it should just touch the rear of the horse. In this photo I would call him "camped out" because his hind legs are behind his rear. But he has NO muscle at all at that age, and indeed in the next photo you can see where the line goes right along his rear.

In anyone can improve on my descriptions, feel free.

Same horse, Max" a few weeks older:

And as a yearling: (BTW, this isn't just my opinion of him, the judges LOVED him). At this show (his first) he was beating a couple of World Champions and a World Grand Champion stallion).

 

[disneyhorse]

It is desirable for the shoulder to be sloping... You know how a full collar sits on a draft horse? Well that plane of the shoulder shoul be sloping and not straight up and down. This allows for the forearm of the horse to raise up while trotting which is desirable in a driving horse and makes for pretty, flowing movement. It also relates to a high neck set, allowing the neck to sit upwards like a deer and not straight out like a hog. This is pretty and again, helps a driving horse who may need to be checked up... A horse can't carry it's head high if it's not built to do so.

As to the hip... A horse's body can be divided into thirds... The front shoulder part, it's belly/barrel part, and then the hip. The section containing the hip should be equal to the other parts because that is the horse's motor from behind. The biggest muscle groups are found there, and again it's desirable in a driving horse (I consider minis' primary function to be driving since they aren't frequently ridden) because you want a strong motor to push the horse and raise up the front end.

Good conformation shouldn't just make the horse look balanced and pretty, but it should also make the horse athletic and useful.

Many minis have very straight shoulders (and consequently low set necks) and weak hips (with consequently low tail sets.)

The degree to which this is varies, as there are kind of no "ideal" angles... Some are just more than others and this is what can make it so hard to see.

If you are interested, there are whole books devoted to conformation, which I personally find very interesting.

I hope this helps, I don't have illustrations handy at this time.

 

[targetsmom]

Thanks Disneyhorse for that explanation! Also, wanted to point out that horse conformation is horse conformation so ANY books on the subject should be helpful. Also, what is considered desirable doesn't change much over time (bone structure anyway) so my old textbooks from college in the 60's are still useful!

 

[Miniv]

The last photo of Target's yearling in the show ring is a good one to study. The colt's shoulder is sloped back toward his back. His hip is sloped forward toward his back.... and both are equal in size to each other. The mid section is also almost equal too. (I split a horse into three sections using triangles.) His neck connects smoothly to the upper part of the chest and he HAS a chest (some minis don't look like they have one). And his neck has an arch to it because he has a decent "pole". His tailset looks good, especially in his baby picture.......and the bonus is his nice head. One thing that a lot of minis tend to lack is a defined throatlatch and jowl .

But you can see why the above yearling did so well with the judges.

 

[Jill]

I think our stallion, Destiny, has a very nice shoulder and these are some of the pictures that illustrate it well. He had a great "all around" kind of show career with titles including National Champion (halter), Reserve National Grand Champion (driving) and Hall of Fame. In addition to liking his shoulder, I think he really illustrates a great hip (and really just well built alround... in my not impartial opinion!):

 

[Minimor]

This pony has a really great shoulder & hip--neck is well set on, as it has to be with a shoulder angle like this (plus it is a neck that never needs sweating). This fellow can really set himself up and trot--he rounds his back and really gets under himself with his back end. Trotting free he moves like a European warmblood--wonderful extension and fluidity; he's an great show pony--the judges love him--and if I were small enough to ride him he would do Grand Prix dressage....and do it well! He's also good over jumps. If he had a pretty head he would be perfect. For this conformation, though, I will not complain about his head!!

 

[Minimor]

This Mini mare could use a wee bit more length to her hip (though its' not bad)--she's got a good long shoulder, and her stifle is still the best stifle I have seen on any Mini. I have always said that if all Minis had a stifle like this, there wouldn't be an issue with locking stifle in the breed!

I do have a photo of a very poor stifle--it is a photograph from a book that I have--but I will have to post it to the photo gallery here before I can add it here for comparison.

 

[disneyhorse]

Okay, not on my iPhone so I can hop onto PhotoShop really quick here for you... I will use my pony as an example, since I own him (he's also a gelding so I really don't care about his conformational shortcomings!). He is a Modern Shetland, but conformation is conformation because ALL horses regardless of size have pretty much the same skeleton.

Here is how my guy moves:



It is important to note that his CONFORMATION dictates that he moves this way. He doesn't ever wear any chains, bands, etc. etc. and this is him just running free in the arena one day where I video taped him.

Conformation is mandated by the skeletal structure of the horse. Although development of fat and muscle can alter how the horse appears for better or worse, it more or less is unchanged. Here is my gelding at age three months, and three years:

Most of the photos I seem to have of him are stretched out, since that is how the breed is usually shown, but I happened to have this photo which I found (might have others but don't have time to dig through my files) where he is standing somewhat square. Here is the uncluttered photo for you:

And now with some "landmarks" to help your eye see. Note that these "landmarks" might be a tad off, I was trying to go quick in Photoshop. They should be lying where the skeletal bones would dictate. This can be hard for some people to "see." Studying what the horses' skeletons look like will be of great help when learning about conformation.

In this photo, you can see the dot above the withers and the top of his butt... and then the corresponding yellow line between them. This is what people generally refer to as the "topline." The yellow line should be level with the ground, this would be considered a "level topline". If the withers are a little bit higher, the horse is considered "uphill" which is generally more desired in an English or Driving type horse than a "downhill" horse where the butt is taller than the withers (common in Western or Stock horses). Minis should have a level topline, or maybe a little uphill. This guy is an American Shetland, and they prefer uphill horses and that is why they are shown parked out... it makes them appear even MORE uphill as the butt drops down when parked out and leaning forward a little. But you can see this guy is a tiny bit uphill even without being fully stretched out.

I do want to point out that he doesn't have what some mini people want called a "tabletop topline"... you can see his back dips down between his withers and his butt. In Modern Shetlands, this "dropped back" allows for bigger front-end motion... but is NOT desired in miniatures. Just want to point that out. However, his tail is set how many minis would like... very high and close to the top of his butt.

The green line on his shoulder kind of goes from the red dot at his withers to the red dot that is the "point" of his shoulder. This is what people are referring to when they are looking at the slope of the shoulder. The green line should be sloped, and not up-and-down. A sloped shoulder will help the foreleg lift up. It will also help that white line (through his neck) be able to raise straight up, too. If the shoulder is "laid back" the horse can lift it's neck up.

When people talk of where the neck comes into the chest, they are referring to where that big yellow arrow is pointing. Many minis do NOT have a good chest here. On my pony, you can see the neck goes into that shoulder, and then I drew that little black line out where you could see it, but there is a length of chest there. Some minis don't have that bit of chest, the neck just blends right down into where the point of shoulder is, and they won't have that open movement out front.

Talking quickly about front legs, you can see that his forearm is longer than his cannon bone, and that he has long pasterns. This helps give him that big front-end movement too.

The white lines on his body kind of divide him into thirds. Ideally, you'd like all three parts to be somewhat equal. If one section is smaller than another, that will determine their overall "balance." If the shoulder is straight-up-and-down they will look weak in the front end. If the middle section is the biggest, the horse is probably too long in the back. If the hip section is the smallest, the horse has a "weak hip". I also drew black lines to make a triangle on this pony's hip... it's not a super great hip like the chestnut pony pictured in the post above, but it's not "bad" or "weak" dramatically.

Lastly, the black lines between his hocks and his knees... this line should be somewhat level... low hocks make for more action. This guy COULD have lower hocks and he'd have even better hock action... but his conformation says it ain't so.

That's all I've got time for, I hope the quick lesson is helpful to anyone.

Thanks,

Andrea

 

[Minimor]

Great posts Andrea--you explain it so well, I don't have to try! LOL

Here is a picture of a very weak stifle (not to mention a very poor hip!)--this is actually a photo of a full size horse but this is the sort of stifle and hip that we see on a great many minis. Notice in the photo of the silver bay mare I posted above, her hindquarter has a distinctly rectangular shape to it, with the stifle being at the bottom/front corner of that rectangle. In this photo below, note how the hindquarter has a distinctly triangular shape to it, with the stifle being near the bottom of the upside down triangle. This stifle, being both thin and straight, is a very weak stifle. There is no length of hip on this horse. The tail is set rather low, though we see plenty of tails set lower than this.

 

[Minimor]

And here is a Mini gelding with a neck set lower than is desirable--with poor definition of chest, as Andrea described above:

This fellow isn't bad moving. but there is nothing remarkable about his action.

 

[HGFarm]

Back to a straighter shoulder vs a more laid back shoulder, I will try to put a couple of examples here. You can see also, how the neck comes UP out of a laid back shoulder like what Andrea was talking about and the other one the neck just juts out more forward from the straight shoulder.

 

[countrymini]

Wow Andrea, your shetland is amazing! I noticed some pictures of driving horses with chain looking things on - is that to make them lift higher?

Thanks everyone for their explanations, I've got it worked out now

 

[disneyhorse]

Yes, country mini, the chains help teach the horse to lift its legs higher. It helps build muscle, like lifting weights. The muscle anticipates having to work harder to lift the leg (even a tiny bit of extra weight) so without the weight the muscle learns to lift the leg higher.

But this only works if the conformation and mechanics of the leg allows it. Muscle can be built over time, as with my pony, but takes longer.

 

[targetsmom]

This is great! Now I have a question about Minimor's mini gelding because I don't see a low neck set - it looks fine to me, and the nice upright neck to go with it. I posted a photo on the original thread of a low neckset and you can see how it affects the neck,

 

[JMS Miniatures]

I'll play here is mine. I certaintly don't think he is fantastic conformation wise so I can pick him apart. Pros with him I consider him to have a good shoulder and chest. Not too bad of length of neck but is pretty thick and his head is pretty large but depending how you look at it can be attractive because of his color. Cons his hind end can be better. His hip isn't terrible but not great, he has a sloping croup, he camps out and cow hocks and toes out in the back, he also has had stifle issues in the past but since driving he has greatly improved and not even noticeable. Front legs are straight. He does fairly well in halter, he has that look at me presence. He is also a nice mover, not fantastic but on his way to get his Roadster HOF and I think will be a really nice Western.

Minimor's gelding does tie in little low in the chest, not as bad as one's I've seen. I have one fairly similar and he is a nice western horse but doesn't have the ability to lift.

 

[Minimor]

Yes, my black gelding isn't as bad as some, but he is far from ideal. If he had his head lower it would be more obvious that his neck is set lower. I do find that a high headed horse can fool people into missing the low neck set. It is misleading.

 

[circlesinthesand]

This Mini mare could use a wee bit more length to her hip (though its' not bad)--she's got a good long shoulder, and her stifle is still the best stifle I have seen on any Mini. I have always said that if all Minis had a stifle like this, there wouldn't be an issue with locking stifle in the breed!

I do have a photo of a very poor stifle--it is a photograph from a book that I have--but I will have to post it to the photo gallery here before I can add it here for comparison.

I'm certainly not expert on mini's but I really like this pony's hip. I find this to be a really NICE hip.

And now with some "landmarks" to help your eye see. Note that these "landmarks" might be a tad off, I was trying to go quick in Photoshop. They should be lying where the skeletal bones would dictate. This can be hard for some people to "see." Studying what the horses' skeletons look like will be of great help when learning about conformation.

In this photo, you can see the dot above the withers and the top of his butt... and then the corresponding yellow line between them. This is what people generally refer to as the "topline." The yellow line should be level with the ground, this would be considered a "level topline". If the withers are a little bit higher, the horse is considered "uphill" which is generally more desired in an English or Driving type horse than a "downhill" horse where the butt is taller than the withers (common in Western or Stock horses). Minis should have a level topline, or maybe a little uphill. This guy is an American Shetland, and they prefer uphill horses and that is why they are shown parked out... it makes them appear even MORE uphill as the butt drops down when parked out and leaning forward a little. But you can see this guy is a tiny bit uphill even without being fully stretched out.

I do want to point out that he doesn't have what some mini people want called a "tabletop topline"... you can see his back dips down between his withers and his butt. In Modern Shetlands, this "dropped back" allows for bigger front-end motion... but is NOT desired in miniatures. Just want to point that out. However, his tail is set how many minis would like... very high and close to the top of his butt.

The green line on his shoulder kind of goes from the red dot at his withers to the red dot that is the "point" of his shoulder. This is what people are referring to when they are looking at the slope of the shoulder. The green line should be sloped, and not up-and-down. A sloped shoulder will help the foreleg lift up. It will also help that white line (through his neck) be able to raise straight up, too. If the shoulder is "laid back" the horse can lift it's neck up.

When people talk of where the neck comes into the chest, they are referring to where that big yellow arrow is pointing. Many minis do NOT have a good chest here. On my pony, you can see the neck goes into that shoulder, and then I drew that little black line out where you could see it, but there is a length of chest there. Some minis don't have that bit of chest, the neck just blends right down into where the point of shoulder is, and they won't have that open movement out front.

Talking quickly about front legs, you can see that his forearm is longer than his cannon bone, and that he has long pasterns. This helps give him that big front-end movement too.

The white lines on his body kind of divide him into thirds. Ideally, you'd like all three parts to be somewhat equal. If one section is smaller than another, that will determine their overall "balance." If the shoulder is straight-up-and-down they will look weak in the front end. If the middle section is the biggest, the horse is probably too long in the back. If the hip section is the smallest, the horse has a "weak hip". I also drew black lines to make a triangle on this pony's hip... it's not a super great hip like the chestnut pony pictured in the post above, but it's not "bad" or "weak" dramatically.

Lastly, the black lines between his hocks and his knees... this line should be somewhat level... low hocks make for more action. This guy COULD have lower hocks and he'd have even better hock action... but his conformation says it ain't so.

That's all I've got time for, I hope the quick lesson is helpful to anyone.

Thanks,

Andrea

This is a really good description, IMO. One question for disney horse about the hip though? is this shorter flatter hip what's desired in a mini? I'm trying to learn about mini conformations too but I'm coming from a stock horse back ground and to me this is not exactly what I look for in the hip. In a stock horse we like a REALLY long deep hip and generally we don't worry over the tailset much but if we're asked we like a pretty low tail set so this is what I'm struggling with the most to find out what is desired in a mini hip...plus the camped out pose is well...my eye needs some major training.

To add to this description and clarify my question: When I look at a horse I generally like to see the hip and shoulder angle the same about 45 degrees or so to form a trapezoid. While most horses will not acheive a perfect trapezoid some can come pretty dang close. The topline (from red dot to red dot in that photo) should be shorter than the underline to form that trapezoid.

See how the line from the top of the withers drops well behind the elbow on that pony? THAT is a really quick way to check the shoulder, just drop an imaginary line from the highest point of the withers down, the farther back it is from the elbow the better. Most horses with straight shoulders will have long backs too.

 

[disneyhorse]

Circlesinthesand.... No, a low tail set is NOT what is desired in minis. The higher the tailset the better. But the deeper the hip the better, too. It isn't really like a quarter horse butt, quarter horses often have low tailsets, straighter stifles, and sometimes sickle hocks. None of this is desirable in the minis.

 

[targetsmom]

Sorry to disagree with Disneyhorse on the tailset question... she is right that MANY, maybe MOST mini people like a high tailset on minis, but I also come from a stock horse background, so I see nothing wrong with a lower tailset AS LONG AS THE REAR END IS STRONG. I also prefer a little roundness to the butt (like a stock horse) rather than the flat croups seen on Arabians. I don't see either of these (low tailsets or round butts) as conformation faults, although in many cases they will be found along with TRUE conformation flaws, such as short hips, sloping rumps, etc.