Conformation Help?

[JAX]

Ok guys lately it seems to me that there are several questions or comments about our miniature horses conformation. I have heard and heard and heard the things that you do and dont want... but here is my problem: I cant see it!!

People talk about a weak rear end causing stifle issues. What does "good" look like? How about examples of "bad", and why?

On the shoulders, what is "good" and what is" bad" and why?

Also what about" how the neck ties into the shoulder and/or neck". Why?

I realize that we have to use pictures of our own horses if picture examples are used. I think?

Does anyone know of a book that would perhaps show excellent examples that someone even like me can figure out? The books I have looked at just show you the "good" ones and then show you a bad one, I wish they would show both and then show them with bones super imposed... Or something like that. I have found that I do pretty good picking out who will do well in the show ring... but I cant really pick them apart or tell why exactly.

I would love some real informative help on this!

 

[frosthillfarm]

Here's one of my special boys - LM Idols Valentino Hawk. He's a 4 year old gelding by Billy Idol and out of a Champion Farms Knighthawk daughter. Valentino is a multiple AMHA World & AMHR National Champion. I'm just a pit partial but I think his conformation is quite stellar.

 

[Jill]

I like an upright neck and laid back shoulder. I feel Destiny demostrates what I like and these photos capture it... He's a National Champion in halter and a Res. National Grand in driving... form / function flow together.

And one of his daughters, WFM Divine Destiny, showing she got some good genes from both her daddy and mommy. I like her neck and shoulder (and other features...):

 

[targetsmom]

ANY book on horse conformation that has diagrams in it should be helpful - new, old, any breed and size. One of my favorites is Horse Gaits, Balance and Movement by Susan E. Harris because it clearly relates form to function, which is really what conformation is all about. Don't confuse conformation - bone structure - with conditioning; you can have a poorly conformed horse in great condition for the show ring or a poorly conditioned, fat horse with GREAT conformation.

Here is an illustration of rear ends that shows the good and the bad. The dark image in the center of each one is how the hind leg will look when the horse is standing. Note the vertical line that should line up with the back of the cannon bone and how the hock angle changes in each picture. Check this against photos you see on here, in magazines and books. Also remember that all the bones are connected, so if one angle is "off" it will throw other parts off (like the stifle joint). There are dozens more illustrations like this one in the book I mention.

 

[MeganH]

I'm going to be watching this thread as I don't know how to look and see a good vs bad confirmation. Can you tell in a young cold or filly if they have or will have good confirmation?

 

[targetsmom]

I think you can tell a lot about conformation in a foal. Here is our colt Max at 4 days:

The rear end angles will not look the same though because of the lack of muscle development in the rear end. But note the topline and the shoulder angle and the BALANCE. You can divide his body into three equal parts - shoulder, body and rear end.

Here is the same colt - turning gray - as a yearling:

I had judges mumble to themselves in the ring "I can't believe how straight he is", referring to his legs.

 

[Mominis]

Here is an example of Shake parked out, as mentioned above. He isn't camped out in the hind at all, in fact, he's quite correct. I had a judge tell me that in 30 years of judging, he has the best legs of any horse she has seen (though, I have to say the the photo Target posted of Max shows beautiful forelegs). Notice the angle of Shake's shoulder in the photo below. Also the length of neck and fineness of throatlatch.

Someone mentioned the 1/3, 1/3, 1/3 above. Shake is longer in the neck than he is in his other 1/3s. Which, to me is quite acceptable. His head appears large and heavy in this photo and honestly, it isn't his best quality. But, overall, I like this horse's conformation. And to prove that form follows function, I have also attached a photo of him in the long lines.

 

[targetsmom]

Taking this one step farther (I hope Mominis doesn't mind) if you run a line along the back of Shake's hind cannon bone you will see that - even though he is stretched - the line will just touch his rear end. And, yes, the rear angle on Max's hind legs is NOT perfect. He looks to be a bit camped out. No horse is perfect. From the front or rear, his legs were very straight however. If he moved a leg in the show ring there was no need to panic - he would still look straight, just with a hoof out of place.

 

[MindyLee]

I guess Ill be the brave one here and use my own minis as a example BECAUSE theres no such thing as a perfect mini and most will never ever show you theirs... so here you go.

Here is one of my fav little mares. I personally feel she has a weak rear end. Small little hip which without the right stallion, could run into issues foaling. I also think her face is a little longer then what it should be. She also has a club foot which is not sever, but has to be kept up with ever other month (sample below, hers looks like the middle pic). And just looking at her here, shes nice but thats how sometimes it can be difficult to see some of thes flaws. BUT I love her anyways and shes still a really nice looking little gal!

Hope this helps!

ALSO IF ANY OF YOU SEE MORE ON HER, YOUR MORE THEN WELCOME TO PICK HER APART. SHES HER FOR A EXAMPLE AND HAVE MY PERMISSION TO DO SO. Im not familiar with shoulders/necks.

 

[Mominis]

This is our other gelding, Eli. He is not a candidate for halter due to some lower leg issues. My husband loves this horse, but he is splay footed (the gelding--not my husband, lol), especially in the left fore, as you will notice in the standing shot. His neck ties in a little low for my taste and he falls of a little behind. He falls off behind, meaning that his croup isn't as flat as I'd like it to be. He's also slightly cowhocked. However, he has one of the longest strides you'd ever want to see and is really one heck of a mover. He's my husband's roadster candidate for next year.

 

[MeganH]

If I post a picture of my colt can someone comment and point out anything that they see. Good or bad?

A lot of the show photos the horses do look 'stretched' so I see what you say about how it differs from them standing.

 

[MeganH]

here is the best standing shot I have of my Ricochet. He isn't standing perfect but good enough.

 

[Flying minis]

Also, note that some conformational "faults" are somewhat more typical of different styles, and can actually improve a horse's performance depending on what they are showing in. For example - a horse without a good sloping shoulder is going to be much more likely to carry their head lower and flatter, and their movement will also be flatter, without elevation or "knee" action. That horse won't do well in halter, but has a front end setup to excel in Western country driving, where a "long and low" style is more preferred.

It's just like looking at different breeds. Shoulder angles that Saddlebred breeders would love to have will make Quarter Horse Western Pleasure breeders cry : )

In general, I was always taught (and taught my 4-H judging kids) to look at 3 things, in this order:

1) balance. No matter what breed, generally the 1/3, 1/3, 1/3 rule is correct. Nice topline, not standing downhill. Look at Hip, shoulder, head, neck, body - the horse shouldn't look like he's made of "spare parts" (except for a Saddlebred, which I always joke looks like the ultimate horse made out of spare parts!)

2) type. Is it representative of its breed? Can you look at a horse and tell if it's an Arabian, Saddlebred, Quarter Horse, mini (I know, that one's easier, but I mean the type of mini that is favored in halter - not draft horse looking, or pony looking), etc. Way of moving comes in here (not correctness of movement) - long and low for stock types, more elevated for others, amount of reach and hock, etc.

3) conformation - as related to type. The "conformation" pieces I really look at as legs, because hip/shoulder/neck/head really came into play in balance (except obvious conformation faults like ewe neck, unrefined head, steep croup, low backed, etc.)

I see a lot of kids judging especially who when giving reasons will talk all about a horses slight cowhocks, or straight pasterns, and never mention that he's long backed and short hipped. That's why I was always taught look at things in the order above. Especially in smaller shows, you can often pick the top few horses just looking at balance and type. At bigger shows, I feel the details of conformation become more important, because most of the horses are well balanced and typy.

 

[Minimor]

Well, in an ideal world, this is what I think of when I think of an upright neck and a long, well laid back shoulder, not to mention good length of hip:

This is my Timmie last year, just a little bit grubby with some spring mud...I have some show photos coming that show off his neck even better but I won't have those for a few days yet. If this fellow had a prettier head he would be perfect. He is a lovely mover too. I bought him on conformation, knowing that the way he is built he would be able to move the way I like, and I'm sure not disappointed in his action. Yes, this is one of my ponies, he will never fit into AMHR, but he has a half brother who is AMHR, and another half brother who will be AMHR next year if he doesn't grow too much--at the moment he measures in easily but he's only 2. He is very like Tim in conformation and probably moves better.

When it comes to good stifle conformation in Minis--this mare still has the best stifle conformation of any mini I've seen in person or photos so far. I have always said that if all Minis had a stifle like this mare's, there wouldn't be a problem with locking stifles in the breed.

 

[Mominis]

Ooooh! Timmie is neat!

 

[Jean_B]

This is a great diagram!

Meagan, remember when looking at the pictures of the horses, sometimes the show horses are a bit "stretched out" with their hind legs extended a bit, so they may not "match" the "good" picture, but standing normally they would.

Great help!

.

One of the reasons many showing miniatures stretch them as much as they do is to camouflage a weak set of rear legs. Pretty hard to tell if they have a strong gasgin or are straight from point of rear to hock and down to pastern if they are parked...and most judges don't take the time to ask them to 'square up' like they are supposed to.

 

[miniluv777]

I think you can tell a lot about conformation in a foal. Here is our colt Max at 4 days:

The rear end angles will not look the same though because of the lack of muscle development in the rear end. But note the topline and the shoulder angle and the BALANCE. You can divide his body into three equal parts - shoulder, body and rear end.

Here is the same colt - turning gray - as a yearling:

I had judges mumble to themselves in the ring "I can't believe how straight he is", referring to his legs.

Wow! They ARE spectacular!

 

[Minimor]

Not true--a judge that knows what he is doing can judge a horse even in a "parked" position. Got a bad set of hind legs, or a bad hip? Posing that horse stretched will not hide anything--in fact in many cases the stretched pose will make those poor hind legs/poor hip look even worse than if the horse was stood square. Granted, some people may think they are hiding something by stretching the horse, but thinking it doesn't make it so. If a horse is camped out, or sickle hocked, that will still be apparent when the horse stands in a stretched pose.

 

[Taylor Richelle]

Okay I'll be brave and post a pic of one of my geldings...just wondering what some of his faults are...

Sox Trotting...

He's a bit over stretched here...

Not a very good pic...but you can see how he toes out a bit in the back... but normally I can get him to straighten out better in halter class anyway...is that normal?

 

[Taylor Richelle]

Okay 2 more pics but of my Stud (soon to be gelding

) Knight. Now these were taken about a year ago when he was a yearling...I need to get some better updated pics of him but can you tell from these if he had/has decent conformatin?

Oh and thank God he finally grew into that head