Color help Please???

[Suzie]

I have had this colt color DNA'd but I still am not 100% sure what to call him on his registry papers (AMHA/AMHR). His dam is listed as palomino (but also is a champagne) and sire is DNA'd as a smoky black. I think this colt should be called a smoky black but has the silver gene also. Is there such a thing as a smoky silver? As of today, he looks much lighter than this newborn pic-more like the mare actually. Mane and tail are very light blonde color.

Thanks!

DNA results:

[SIZE=10pt]Horse Name[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]Breed[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]Red Factor[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]Agouti[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]Cream[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]Silver[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]Silver Belle Farms Jacks Irish Frost[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]Miniature Horse[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]Ee[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]aa[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]nCr[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]nZ[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]Result Guide:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]Red Factor[/SIZE]
[SIZE=8pt]ee[/SIZE]
[SIZE=8pt]Only the red factor detected. The horse tested homozygous for red pigment. The basic color is chestnut or sorrel, but depending on genes at other color loci, the horse could be red dun, palomino, cremello, gray or white.[/SIZE][SIZE=8pt]Ee[/SIZE]
[SIZE=8pt]Both black and red factors detected. The horse tested heterozygous for the red factor. It can transmit either E or e to its offspring. The basic color of the horse will be black, bay or brown, but depending on genes at other color loci, the horse may be buckskin, zebra dun, grullo, perlino, gray, or white.[/SIZE][SIZE=8pt]EE[/SIZE]
[SIZE=8pt]Only the black factor detected. The horse tested homozygous for black pigment. It cannot have red foals regardless of the color of the mate. The basic color of the horse will be black, bay or brown, but depending on genes at other color loci, the horse may be buckskin, zebra dun, grullo, perlino, gray or white.[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt]Agouti[/SIZE][SIZE=8pt]aa[/SIZE]
[SIZE=8pt]Only recessive allele detected. Black pigment distributed uniformly. The basic color of the horse will be black in the absence of other modifying genes.[/SIZE][SIZE=8pt]Aa[/SIZE]
[SIZE=8pt]Horse tested Heterozygous for Agouti. Black pigment distributed in point pattern. The basic color of the horse will be bay or brown in the absence of other modifying genes.[/SIZE][SIZE=8pt]AA[/SIZE]
[SIZE=8pt]Only dominant allele detected. Black pigment distributed in point pattern. The basic color of the horse will be bay or brown in the absence of other modifying genes.[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt]Cream Dilution[/SIZE][SIZE=8pt]CrCr[/SIZE]
[SIZE=8pt]Double dilute. Horse tested Homozygous for Cream Dilution (Two copies of the Cream allele). Chestnut is diluted to cremello; bay is diluted to perlino and black is diluted to smoky cream. These colors can be further modified by the actions of other genes.[/SIZE][SIZE=8pt]nCr[/SIZE]
[SIZE=8pt]Dilute. Horse tested Heterozygous for Cream Dilution (One copy of the Cream allele). Chestnut is diluted to palomino; bay is diluted to buckskin and black is diluted to smoky black. These colors can be further modified by the actions of other genes.[/SIZE][SIZE=8pt]nn[/SIZE]
[SIZE=8pt]Non-dilute. Horse tested negative for Cream Dilution. Basic colors are chestnut, bay, black or brown in the absence of other modifying genes.[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt]Silver Dilution[/SIZE][SIZE=8pt]ZZ[/SIZE]
[SIZE=8pt]Horse tested Homozygous for Silver Dilution (Two copies of the Silver allele detected). Black-based horses will be chocolate with flaxen mane and tail. Bay-based horses will have pigment on lower legs lightened and flaxen mane and tail. No effect on chestnut color. [/SIZE][SIZE=8pt]nZ[/SIZE]
[SIZE=8pt]Horse tested Heterozygous for Silver Dilution (One copy of the Silver allele detected). Black-based horses will be chocolate with flaxen mane and tail. Bay-based horses will have pigment on lower legs lightened and flaxen mane and tail. No effect on chestnut color. [/SIZE][SIZE=8pt]nn[/SIZE]
[SIZE=8pt]Horse tested negative for Silver Dilution.[/SIZE]

 

[Mona]

I would say you are correct, in that he is a silver smokey black.

:

 

[Bluerocket]

For registration purposes -- he is a Silver -- I don't think they recognize colors as you have described him - he is quite nice!!

JJay

 

[chandab]

I think I'd try to register him as a smokey silver black (or smokey silver dapple), send a copy of the DNA color results to show that's what he is and then go from there. Smokey silver black (smokey silver dapple) probably isn't on the color list, but at least you'd be trying to register him as the right color. I think the cream gene is just as important to know is present as the silver gene.

 

[Suzie]

Thanks! I don't think he has the dapple qualities, matter of fact, I need to go back and retest the sire or dam to see who carries silver (now that there is a test available for that!! YIPPEE!). Neither sire nor dam exhibit the silver characteristics visibly that I can tell. I actually just threw that test in for the heck of it when I sent off the sample just to see what it came back as. The fact that he carried a silver gene was a complete surprise to me.

Another question I need to ask...I thought that if the silver gene was present, it was always expressive-never recessive.? Bays/blacks turn to silver bays or silver dapples -right? The sire is smokey black..no signs of silver at all. If he carried the silver gene, would he not HAVE to express it and the jet black turn silver???

If the dam carries it, and she is a red based horse, she could hide it -correct? Silver does not affect red if I understand it correctly.

Basically, I am trying to save some money here and only retest the one I THINK might have the silver gene to contribute based on visual looks.

 

[ThreeCFarm]

You are correct--silver doesn't hide on a black based horse. It had to have come from the mare.

 

[Dona]

You are correct--silver doesn't hide on a black based horse. It had to have come from the mare.

I agree there is no need to test....the Silver gene must be coming from the red based mare.

:

 

[Oreo]

Could he b called a grulla?

My line back dun adn red roan paint minis produced a black adn white colt but he is starting change colors.

 

[CheyAut]

It is true that silver can hide on red, but is visible on blacks/bays... BUT...

Cream DOES mess with the silver expression. THe following horse is my gelding, who is BLACK with cream and silver... he doesn't look black at all, but also NOT like your typical silver black...

And with some fuzz

 

[rabbitsfizz]

I'm glad you put that horse up he is a good example- also Liz's Mouse- if you look at him.

Cream seems to inhibit Silver- as Grey seems to be accelerated by it.

There is also the chance that your horse has inherited Champagne- you need to go to the Champagne site and look at a few examples of Classic Champagne- he is not the usual colour for this but with Silver and Cream already in the mix you could well have something rather unusual anyway.

Is there any possibility that the Dam is also hiding Roan- he does look like my Silver black Roan's colour a lot.

I think you should just put Different in the colour box

:

 

[Meavey]

He is not champagne cause he has dark skin, champagnes always have pink skin.

Yep he is a silver smokey black, and a pretty one! :aktion033:

 

[Suzie]

Yes, I don't believe from what I have read on champagnes that he got that gene from his dam (we were HOPING he would!) She did have a champagne filly that we have and there is big difference in the underlying skin tones. That filly is bright pink in her nose, udder, etc and her eyes are hazel/yellow. When she is clipped, she is bright pink skinned until she tans. This colt does not look pink underneath, even though he does have a pink mouth and bald nostrils. Too cold yet to head clip ( supposed to be 15 here this weekend) but he is black everywhere else that is exposed. I believe champagne is always expressed if present, from what I have read. That being said, I do wonder what, if any, effect the Silver and Cream would have on it if it is present. Perhaps technology will soon reward us with that test also.

He is a Buckeroo colt, grandsire was White Russian (cremello) and granddam was solid jet black. The mare is an older mare and hard to find pics of her pedigree, but I was told her sire was "an odd shade of dun".

The one thing about these little guys- they should be called Forrest Gumps...like a box of chocolates, you never know WHAT you are going to get!!!! LOL! Thanks for all the replies and the nice comments on this colt. He has finally unfolded and looks like he is going to be a keeper.

:

: He has that hard to find naturally high tailset that I love and great conformation- and his daddy's LONG LEGS....

:

 

[ChrystalPaths]

I have no earthly idea about color Suzie but he sure us a nice looking colt. Howz Peaches?

 

[Suzie]

I have no earthly idea about color Suzie but he sure us a nice looking colt. Howz Peaches?

Well Peaches has decided to make my life interesting. She loves to see me in the barn at 2 am shivering I think. Probably payback for all those early April body clips.....She has waited through 70 and 80 degree days and 60 degree nights for this coming weekend,,,,,snow, 15 degrees predicted and highs in the low 30s......you just KNOW she has had her knees crossed for this cold weather to reappear!!! Frosty was born to Sugar on 3-18 at 21 degrees at 4:20 am. (thus the name). I think she had a bet on with Sugar that she could hold out for the last cold spell before November again......That's okay, I have not put my coats away just yet-or the heat lamp. At least she did wait until AFTER the wedding (she bagged up and did funny stuff just so I would have to pay for a horse-sitter to stay with her I think!!!)

Last year she decided to foal about 5 minutes after my husband drove off down the driveway to go visit his dad (3 weeks early!) (She probably was too short to see I was not in the truck with him!!!)

: She was just FINE 30 minutes before, with no indications foaling was so close. Mike came back 40 minutes later to see a new filly in the barn.

:

One thing above all, these horses like to make life VERY INTERESTING! :bgrin

 

[ChrystalPaths]

Ha ha, is she still on cam? Payback from a horse is funny! Hopefully it will warm up soon. Today it is 23 out and COLD!!!!!

 

[Meavey]

That being said, I do wonder what, if any, effect the Silver and Cream would have on it if it is present. Perhaps technology will soon reward us with that test also.

I have a classic champagne with silver and cream actually.

:

He was born kinda yellow:

http://img102.imageshack.us/img102/4217/dbllightac9.jpg

And now:

http://img102.imageshack.us/img102/6140/im...32editediq1.jpg

The silver doesn´t seem to work very well with champagne I have two champagnes with silver and both have quite dark mane and tail.

This is my classic silver pinto (no cream):

http://img440.imageshack.us/img440/9130/naamloos4tc7.jpg

 

[rabbitsfizz]

I think it is more likely the Cream + Silver darkening the mane- then the Champagne has the usual effect on the body!!

Interesting, though.

Are they any closer to a test for Champagne, do you know??

 

[Champagne Person]

Just curious - why do you think the mare is champagne? Her skin looks dark? Has she been tested for cream? If she has a cream gene, her coat is too dark for her to be a gold cream (palomino plus champagne).

The combination of cream and silver can lighten the skin on a horse, and can sometimes be mistaken for champagne. I have not yet seen the skin on a DNA verified palomino carrying silver, though...... So I can't say for sure if silver could help lighten the skin on a palomino. Silver won't affect the hair color on a palomino. But the skin? We don't know.......

cs

 

[Suzie]

Just curious - why do you think the mare is champagne? Her skin looks dark? Has she been tested for cream? If she has a cream gene, her coat is too dark for her to be a gold cream (palomino plus champagne).The combination of cream and silver can lighten the skin on a horse, and can sometimes be mistaken for champagne. I have not yet seen the skin on a DNA verified palomino carrying silver, though...... So I can't say for sure if silver could help lighten the skin on a palomino. Silver won't affect the hair color on a palomino. But the skin? We don't know.......

cs

This mare had a champagne filly 4 years ago. Golden brown eyed. She did not get the cream gene passed to her, so she is even more champagne looking. The sire of this filly was definitely not a champagne, ergo, the mare has to be. This mare has yellowish/hazel eyes, pink nose and udder and she has to "tan" when she is clipped. She is a bright pink skin underneath. The filly is a bit more pronounced in her pinkness. If this mare has champagne over cream it might be why she looks a bit different. And I am sure the Silver (since the conscensus seems to be she is the silver carrier) would have some effect. I did some research on this mare and was told by a friend of the breeder that her sire was "an odd shade of dun" although I cannot find anyone still living that can get me a pic of him. The mare was born in 1989 and the breeder passed away about a month after she was born. You can't see it in her pics but we have several palominos here and she just does not look the same as any of them. Her color is a bit odd up close, but beautiful!

I would love for the genetics people to be able to isolate and identify the champagne gene soon.

 

[Champagne Person]

Unfortunately, champagne can't be categorized by "If it is not this, then it is champagne," because there are too many other things that resemble champagne. Has Blondie actually been tested for cream? I noted on your web site one of the reasons you thought she was champagne was because she "started palomino, then turned white." This is NOT what champagnes do! Sugar Plum has eleven babies listed at AHMR, and yet only one is champagne? That is bucking the odds! She would produce 50% champagne if she had the gene. Would you consider taking some clear skin photos of Sugar Plum or Blondie (muzzle, around eye, nipples, under tail), so people who have had a lot of experience with champagne could take a look at them? Thanks.

cs