Breeding & locking stifles

[Tremor]

I did end up looking up locking stifles as I have three miniatures (a mare and her two offspring) who like to stand in an awkward position and keep it. However, its not locking stifles.

 

[minie812]

Thxs for the responses.

I know it is a touchy subject for some folks. Dr. T you are very correct in what you said. I asked mainly as I see so many people selling down or dispersing. As someone who is window shopping I want to make sure should I purchase in the future that I research the bloodlines to try to find the best crosses to my stallion and not purchase just because of a name or popular bloodline of the moment.

 

[Riverdance]

rabbitsfizz,

The reason we pose horses is to cover up conformational faults. Although I prefer the elegant look, sadly too many judges today are fooled by it and choose poorly made horses who show well.

So, although I see your point, I would like to improve judges opinions rather than the way we show.

Dr. Taylor

I so agree with you!!! I have seen many a horse with glaring conformational faults when standing normally, but set up, neck stretched out, they look great and often win. I often wonder if our judges even have a clue what good conformation even is.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

So surely if you just had the horses stood up properly the conformational faults would show......

 

[Marsha Cassada]

My horse is a registered foundation shetland, eligible to be hardshipped into AMHR. I was planning to do this, as I like my horses to have all the plus points I can, in case they move on to new homes. But I will not bother with the expense or inconvenience with her now, as there is no way she should be bred. If she leaves me, it will be on the understanding that she will not be bred. I know we cannot control everything, as indeed horses are not machines, but we can help to spare future owners some of the heartbreak of genetic/conformational woes. I wish she were a stallion; I'd know what to do then...

If the day comes when/if I feel she might show in the driving classes, I will reconsider hardshipping. If she were set up, conditioned, and groomed professionally, I wonder if a judge would observe her faults?? She is a very showy girl.

 

[Minimor]

I've never found that a stretched pose hides much of anything in the way of faults--much of the problem is people (judges included) cant see faults no matter how the horse stands...and some just don't look close enough to see what is there when te horse is stretched.

A bad croup is still a bad croup ( in the minis it is often worse) when the horse is stretched. Sickle hocks or camped out conformation is still perfectly visible in a stretched stance. Poor shoulder, crooked legs..poor neck set...those and plenty more are obvious even when the horse is stretched.

I am surprised at how many people see the stretched pose and cannot see anything more.

 

[disneyhorse]

And... It's not like a judge can't ask for a different pose. I've had judges ask me to show a horse square (AMHR) for a different look...

 

[HGFarm]

I have not had to deal with locking stifles, thank heavens, but then I like a big strong rear on my horses. However, I know of others who have had to- another past breeder who had a mare that had it and produced it every time- yet they kept on breeding. Two of the foals were so bad they had to be put down. Another friend just purchased a colt this year from a farm who has the problem. The farm pretended not to know, but then admitted they did notice a problem and oh, just feed him these vitamins and it will go away.

Yes, I have heard people making excuses for why a horse has this issue with everything from 'oh they will out grow it' to simply not standing behind the horses they breed/sell to people.

 

[DJF Miniature Show Horses]

I just went through a horrid stifle (both) issue. My 2 year old locked badly. Lunging him he would catch and fall down.Had surgeries. Nothing was working. I lost him too congenital renal failure after all the expense and pain of trying to get him sound. He was Very well bred and gorgeous.

What I have gained from this heart break is this. The reason minis, ponies and horses in general get locking stifles is from being moderate to severly "cowhocked". Being "sickle hocked" added to cow hocked is disaster!

Since my loss I am very aware of the legs of minis almost obsessed

Being cow hocked puts misalignment with the hip, stifle and hock. I have seen puffiness in the stifle area on a cow hocked mini.

My mare is slightly cowhocked and ocassionaly locks. Not severely like my colt did.

When I went looking for a new colt I made dang sure he was straight and correct! He is related 3x to my deceased colt through Bond Dynamo and Bond Sir Galahaad both by Bond Showboy. My new colt whom I have owned a year now has never had any stifle or lameness issues. I may be on to something...hmmm

The topside of my deceased colt traces to early Shetland blood and some dwarfism. He had a top bloodline that is famous and their top stallions are severly cowhocked. Think I know where it came from? A cousin to my deceased colt close up too also had severe cow hocks. He locked up while driving in a show and panicked and flipped his cart over!

No one was hurt thank God. Unfortuantly this person sold him to someone else out of state and did not disclose his stifle issue. Makes me sick...

Anyhoo just my experience

 

[Marsha Cassada]

Is is appropriate to contact the breeder and alert him to this problem, so he can know about breeding the combination again? I did not purchase my horse directly from the breeder.

 

[DJF Miniature Show Horses]

I notified the breeder on my colt about his stifles and the congenital renal failure.All I got was "It is the responsibilty of the buyer to have blood tests and soundness checks". Not the response I expected AND this woman is a personal friend of mine to boot! The stifle issue I believe is conformation and not heredity. The renal failure my vets said is heredity.

All in all it has been a VERY expensive and heart breaking experience for me....

 

[disneyhorse]

I have not connected locking stifle to cow hocks in my experience.

 

[Minimor]

A cow hocked horse may also have straight hind legs but the cow hocks themselves have no direct relation to a bad stifle. There are cow hocked horses who never have a bit of trouble with their stifles.

Now--a horse that has actually injured his stifle will adopt a stifle-out stance which may cause the horse to have a cow hocked appearance if his stance is altered enough to change the position of his entire leg. But--this is in the case of an acute injury, where the horse is lame (not locking) and has heat/swelling in the stifle.

 

[JMS Miniatures]

The ones I've experienced to stifle problems were also cow hocked. I can see it as causing some problems if they were severely cow hocked but I don't think it is ever an exact science. Just another reason you cannot over look bad conformation.

 

[DJF Miniature Show Horses]

Disneyhorse and minimor my vets would beg to differ.

A horse cannot be cowhocked and straight at the same time sorry...

You honestly think after the heart break I have been through that Im just way off base here? I have witnessed the connection to cowhocks and stifle locking 100 percent. Im a retired pro barrel racer. Think I know a thing or two about legs and lameness issues.....

Every big horse and mini I have seen lock up have been cowhocked.Thats why I made this connection. It is not heredity. You have a foal out of two cowhocked dwarfy minis and that foal is not cow hocked? He wont have a locking stifle. My colt was out of two very correct minis. A little cow hocked. Both of his stifles would lock. It was horrible!

Dwarfs are cow hocked among other faults. Dwarfism is heredity. The problem I see is huge with some top farms. Their stallions are spindly and cow hocked. Im seeing locking stifles coming from this.

When the judges start paying attention to these crooked legs and stop placing these horses only then would good over all conformation come back and be in demand again.

 

[disneyhorse]

I've had two horses with locking stifle (one shetland, and one mini) and have seen quite a few more and none cow hocked. In relation, I've owned a few cow hocked horses and worked with LOTS of cow hocked draft horses (cow hocks and close set hocks are actually desired in many draft breeds) that did not have stifle issues.

Are those sometimes linked? Well, sure. But to say always, or that it goes hand in hand seems like a gross generalization to me that hasn't been the case in my experience. I'm not a pro barrel racer but I have some good experience under my belt, too.

Additionally, if cow hocked conformation is 100% to blame for locking stifle, we could avoid purchasing a horse with locking stifle in the first place just by looking at the horse and having a good eye for conformation. But I've seen beautiful horses with locking stifle.

 

[Minimor]

A "straight hind leg" (or a "straight stifle") has nothing at all to do with whether or not the horse is cowhocked. The "straight" you judge from the side....the cowhocks you judge from the rear...and if you are looking at the horse from the rear you will not see the straight stifle, nor even the "straight hind leg" (also known as post legged in its more severe form). A horse can have a straight, thin stifle and still be sickle hocked. (I've seen it.) A horse can be post legged AND cowhocked (saw that at least once too--definitely not good)

In truth I have seen very few truly cowhocked Minis. There are plenty who toe out behind, but that doesn't make them truly cowhocked. The minis I have seen with locking stifle absolutely were not cowhocked. Some do toe out to some extent, others not so much. There are many horses who toe out behind & never have a stifle issue. As Andrea said--if cowhocks were responsible for locking stifle then it would be much easier for people to avoid, because people can see cowhocks more readily than they can see a straight stifle and generally poor hindquarter conformation.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

I have had two minis with locking stifles now (neither was bred) and neither had cow hocks. I have had a number of cow hocked horses through my long life and although I have not barrel raced I gymkhana'd as a child and jumped, hunter trialled, showed Arabs in hand and under saddle and bred them, etc etc- you are not the only person on this forum with experience in the show ring_ and I have never had a cow hocked horse with automatic stifle issues, to even suggest it is, to me, absurd, quite frankly. Stifle problems are hereditary in as much as the problems that cause them are inherited, I thought everyone was clear about that by now? That is why you do not breed from a horse with locking stifles......

As has been pointed out, narrow hindlegs, and often cow hocks, are desired in Shires and Clydes and yet there does not seem to be a huge percentage of stifle locking Shires or Clydes.

So, this is new one on me, I'm afraid, but then, what do I know, I have only been in horses for 55 years.....