Bitting??

[LazyRanch]

I am needing an explanation regarding how I am seeing horses bitted, especially in the Pleasure(?) or Fine Harness classes.

I haven't been driving for very long, but have seen - and groomed for - large horse driving classes. Those horses who drive in an overcheck bridle, without exception, drive with an overcheck bit. The purpose originally being that, the overcheck bit keeps the head up, and the regular bit "sets" the head by the driver's hand. (and yes, there has been abuse of the overcheck as "style" dictated)

In the AMHA magazine, I have repeatedly seen minis driven in overcheck bridles, with the overcheck attached to the driving bit, as well as the rein. Worse! Some of them have a running martingale attached to the driving rein!!

This flies in the face of anything I have ever learned regarding bits, biting and use thereof, but I have only ever ridden horses previous to this year, and perhaps driving is different?

Here's what I see:

Overcheck attached to the bit, which should keep the horse from lowering his head too much, but can be adjusted to keep the head UP

Rein attached to the bit and going through rein terrets, back to the driver's hand, the terrets themselves placed at a level seemingly correct for attaining a decent headset

Rein going through a running martingale before the terret, the running martingale being designed to keep the horse's head from going above the point of control, but able to be adjusted so as to keep the head DOWN

The bit would appear to be "weighted" in three different directions: up, back and down

What am I missing? And how does this work? Is it an issue with mouth size on the minies, i.e. mouth too small for 2 bits?

 

[Sandee]

Part of the problem is that the mini has such a small mouth and two bits don't "fit". The other part is checks are required (although not to be overly tight) in AMHR classes. Hence many drive with the check loose and attached to the bit along with the reins. Then there are the others that "see" how someone else has their equipment and not knowing the purpose etc. uses the check and even the martingale incorrectly.

 

[hobbyhorse23]

In the AMHA magazine, I have repeatedly seen minis driven in overcheck bridles, with the overcheck attached to the driving bit, as well as the rein. Worse! Some of them have a running martingale attached to the driving rein!!

Where else would a running martingale be attached?

You're not missing anything. Mini mouths are really too small for two bits so the check, over- or side-, is attached directly to the driving bit. The check is often so tight the horse wants to go along with his or her nose out, so they put on a martingale to bring the nose down and in. And then, yes, the horse is simply chased forward into the bridle until it elevates its strides and goes as desired. Not everyone trains this way. Many people use the gear because certain judges will actually mark you down or give you the gate for not having a martingale on, but adjust it so it does not affect the horse. Same thing with the check- it's required, but it's not required that it be tight or be used in training the horse in the first place. I tend to look at the posture of the horse first and the equipment second. If the horse is properly up in the bridle, using its body well and seems comfortable then I'm okay with the fact the check is tight and a martingale is in use. If, on the other hand, it is hollowed out in front of the withers, the back is locked down, the hind end trailing and the horse doesn't look like it can breath then I have a problem with it. It's all in the hands of the person using the gear! The devices by themselves are not evil.

What bugs me is putting all that gear on, too tight, too soon, and then strapping the horse's mouth shut with a bruisingly tight cavesson to stifle any objections he/she might try to make. What happened to encouraging the driver to develop better hands so the horse didn't feel it had to gape?

Leia

 

[MiLo Minis]

Here is a horse bitted in exactly the way you are describing. He was trained in a different set up but for show purposes uses the overcheck and running martingale. I tried him with a tiny steel overcheck bit, a copper overcheck bit and a leather overcheck bit - none of them worked for him. He had the room in his mouth but was not at all comfortable with any of them and gaped his mouth as the overcheck did pull up while the regular bit pulled back and the martingale pulled down. He came to me in January for training to be shown this past season. Left to his own devices at this stage of his work he has basically a Western headset but not Western movement. The overcheck gives him the headset he needs for the class he is in and the martingale helps to bring his nose in. As you can see from these photos he is quite comfortable going as he is and I don't have either overcheck or martingale on overly tight. He is still worked frequently without either overcheck or martingale to allow him to develop his own carriage but is also worked in overcheck and martingale to allow me to gradually raise his carriage obviously quicker than his own development would allow. A side check is NEVER used with an auxiliary bit.

 

[RhineStone]

Nice turnout, Lori! That hat is very striking!

There was a Morgan in a clinic I was giving who had an overcheck bit that was pulling up on the horse's mouth, while the bit was pulling down. There was a gap of her lips as big as my thumb. The mare was a bit edgy and I suggested taking off the check (it was a 4-H clinic, and in Wis. 4-H, checks are not mandatory). They eventually did and the mare went along great without the check and without really even losing frame, but her mouth wasn't being pulling in two different directions!

There are SO many instances in driving where people use the equipment but have ABSOLUTLY NO IDEA WHY they use it other than #1 - it came with the harness, or #2 - somebody told them to do it that way but didn't tell them why or how.

I totally agree with Leia. Check up a horse that is DESIGNED to be checked, but don't force one that isn't. That would be like taking a "peanut-rolling" western pleasure QH and trying to show it in a Saddlebred Fine Harness class! But it happens with minis all the time! I think it is getting better as more people are educated in proper harness fit, and conformation and movement of the horse. And that more classes are being offered for lower-designed horses. Just because it has a lower headset does not make it less of a horse. Again, I point to the QH and Saddlebred analogy. Each has its own place!

Myrna

 

[MiLo Minis]

Nice turnout, Lori! That hat is very striking!

Myrna

Thanks Myrna!

 

[LazyRanch]

I am thanking all for the excellent explanations!

Bitting ridden horses is a hobby/borderline fetish with me, so looking at the logic of some of the photos I have seen has been such a seeming conflict. Obviously the martingale is only ever going to go on the rein, nothing new there. Sorry Leia, I reread my post and didn't word it well. I meant that the running martingale was attached to the driving rein, attached to the same bit as the overcheck. It just seemed a bit odd to have the downward and upward influences all on the same rein as the hand.

Lori made an interesting comment about side checks and axillary bits. We often tacked children's ponies with a bridoon on a side check. It kept the pony from eating and allowed the child to learn to ride without fighting a food oriented wee beastie. But again, a ridden pony, not a driven pony.

I have looked at my own mini mouths and realized I could well fit a check bit in one horse's mouth but not the other, so wondered it that was an issue. The horse that had been shown extensively, I was told only had a side check. I remember when his previous owner told me that, I had been very relieved. Myrna and Leia brought exactly that point up: checking a horse appropriate to his build. I know his previous owner loved Rascal very much and took his build into account - definitely NOT overcheck build. And I can see where someone could easily have over checked my horse.

Lori, thank you for the photos; they were a big help. The turnout is lovely! I love how all the tones compliment the horse.

So, I guess my next question is regarding types. As Lori mentioned, the horse she is driving is basically a western head set, with not a western movement, which makes me - again - look at Rascal. With no check, he has a fairly low carriage - not the 2"-3" above the withers, but lower than a fine harness. He has the movement of a roadster. PJ had no particular "type" as he was very green. But from dressage work, his hind end is lifting his front, raising his neck and head. Also his legs are longer than Rascal's, so he has a totally different movement.

Thank you everyone! I have lots of food for thought here

So happy I have a place to ask questions,

Cheryl

 

[hobbyhorse23]

So happy I have a place to ask questions,Cheryl

We're glad to have you, Ms. Cheryl! You've got a lot to contribute and bring up many good points for discussion.

Leia

 

[MiLo Minis]

Lori made an interesting comment about side checks and axillary bits. We often tacked children's ponies with a bridoon on a side check. It kept the pony from eating and allowed the child to learn to ride without fighting a food oriented wee beastie. But again, a ridden pony, not a driven pony.

Although I can understand why you set up a pony for a child with a side check and bridoon it is really not something you would ordinarily want to do. A side check properly adjusted should not come into play unless the horse drops his head to graze (which would pull a small child over his head and onto the ground

) but that is when it is attached to his regular bit which is held in position in his mouth by the cheek pieces. If it is attached to an auxiliary bit it would need to be adjusted to carry that bit in the proper position in his mouth which would put it in constant play with his every step, if it wasn't adjusted quite snugly the bit would flop around in the horses mouth. In this case an overcheck would have been more appropriate but you may not have had one handy?

Welcome to the forum - glad to have you here!

 

[Mominis]

Where else would a running martingale be attached?

You're not missing anything. Mini mouths are really too small for two bits so the check, over- or side-, is attached directly to the driving bit. The check is often so tight the horse wants to go along with his or her nose out, so they put on a martingale to bring the nose down and in. And then, yes, the horse is simply chased forward into the bridle until it elevates its strides and goes as desired. Not everyone trains this way. Many people use the gear because certain judges will actually mark you down or give you the gate for not having a martingale on, but adjust it so it does not affect the horse. Same thing with the check- it's required, but it's not required that it be tight or be used in training the horse in the first place. I tend to look at the posture of the horse first and the equipment second. If the horse is properly up in the bridle, using its body well and seems comfortable then I'm okay with the fact the check is tight and a martingale is in use. If, on the other hand, it is hollowed out in front of the withers, the back is locked down, the hind end trailing and the horse doesn't look like it can breath then I have a problem with it. It's all in the hands of the person using the gear! The devices by themselves are not evil.

What bugs me is putting all that gear on, too tight, too soon, and then strapping the horse's mouth shut with a bruisingly tight cavesson to stifle any objections he/she might try to make. What happened to encouraging the driver to develop better hands so the horse didn't feel it had to gape?

Leia

 

[LazyRanch]

Although I can understand why you set up a pony for a child with a side check and bridoon it is really not something you would ordinarily want to do. A side check properly adjusted should not come into play unless the horse drops his head to graze (which would pull a small child over his head and onto the ground

) but that is when it is attached to his regular bit which is held in position in his mouth by the cheek pieces. In this case an overcheck would have been more appropriate but you may not have had one handy?

Welcome to the forum - glad to have you here!

Thank you, I feel welcomed.

With regard to the bridoon and side check, that was the way British Horse Society felt preferable, with a second hanger, just like a double bridle. Most children hunting would have just that set up. My personal name for ponies is "krill seeker" - no offense meant but they do love their treaties!

I never saw an overcheck on a ridden horse, and I never saw an overcheck on a driven horse without a bridoon, and running martingales were always long enough to reach the withers, i.e. keep the horse from raising his head above the point of control, not hold his head down.

Hence my questions!

That's the great thing about horses - never nothing new, always something new.

 

[hobbyhorse23]

"Krill seeker"- love it!

My Arab begged far more shamelessly than my priceless old-style Shetland ever did though. I think he had less dignity!

...running martingales were always long enough to reach the withers, i.e. keep the horse from raising his head above the point of control, not hold his head down.

You learn something new every day. In 4-H I was taught that they shouldn't interfer with the line of the reins when the head was held in a natural position but then again, I never did jumping or anything except flat work. I bet they need to be much longer when the horse is using his head as a lever!

Leia

 

[LazyRanch]

"Krill seeker"- love it!

My Arab begged far more shamelessly than my priceless old-style Shetland ever did though. I think he had less dignity!

You learn something new every day. In 4-H I was taught that they shouldn't interfer with the line of the reins when the head was held in a natural position but then again, I never did jumping or anything except flat work. I bet they need to be much longer when the horse is using his head as a lever!

Leia

 

[LazyRanch]

"Krill Seeker" comes from one of my favourite ponies. You know how baleen whales cruise through water with their mouthes agape? They don't have teeth, rather large "strainers", so they swim, mouth open and catch krill. That was Secret: couldn't walk past a human without trolling, mouth open, snack searching. We have a mustang mare who has a slightly different technique, but a krill seeker nonetheless: she writches her upper lip together, stretches her neck out and cranks her head sideways and on kind of a diagonal. She looks like a camel with a straw after sleeping the wrong way. No dignity, but a lot of krill.

I think Arabs are especially good beggars. They have finesse. Letting you know that they will shamelessly beg for that treat - even though they are one of the world's greatest wonders - is your cue to give them a twofer!

I have ridden 3-day and jumpers most of my life, so you can understand most of my questions! And as taught to you in 4-H, yes, there should be as little interference with the line of the reins! Hopefully I am not to old to make this switch - you know old brains go to mush if you don't keep tossing stuff at them!

But I do have to laugh; some of my driving friends were watching WEG and the 3-day. One of them called to tell me that he was very glad I had finally come to my senses and started driving! Ohhhh how I wish he'd seen Prince Philip establishing his new sport of combined driving. I was at a combined event on one of their estates - sort of a "schooling" affair. He hadn't made the water hazard quite wide enough and the leaders jumped it, leaving the refusing wheelers on the other side, hitched to the carriage. The headers were no longer attached to the carriage, but they were still attached to Philip. He was yanked off the carriage and landed almost the other side of the water, most of him. The horses looked at him, apparently deciding he was good for the rest of the course and took off. Philip decided, at some point that combined driving really was better with a carriage, and finally let loose the lines. Yup! That sounds a whole lot more sensible to me!

BUT I do use Philip as a constant inspiration as I am learning. I don't think anyone has crashed more times, or smashed up more carriages than he. But he kept at it - never hung up his harness and quit. So I just keep on a'keepin' on.

 

[Peggy Porter]

But I do have to laugh; some of my driving friends were watching WEG and the 3-day. One of them called to tell me that he was very glad I had finally come to my senses and started driving! Ohhhh how I wish he'd seen Prince Philip establishing his new sport of combined driving. I was at a combined event on one of their estates - sort of a "schooling" affair. He hadn't made the water hazard quite wide enough and the leaders jumped it, leaving the refusing wheelers on the other side, hitched to the carriage. The headers were no longer attached to the carriage, but they were still attached to Philip. He was yanked off the carriage and landed almost the other side of the water, most of him. The horses looked at him, apparently deciding he was good for the rest of the course and took off. Philip decided, at some point that combined driving really was better with a carriage, and finally let loose the lines. Yup! That sounds a whole lot more sensible to me!

BUT I do use Philip as a constant inspiration as I am learning. I don't think anyone has crashed more times, or smashed up more carriages than he. But he kept at it - never hung up his harness and quit. So I just keep on a'keepin' on.

LOVE LOVE LOVE this story!!!!

 

[hobbyhorse23]

The headers were no longer attached to the carriage, but they were still attached to Philip. He was yanked off the carriage and landed almost the other side of the water, most of him. The horses looked at him, apparently deciding he was good for the rest of the course and took off. Philip decided, at some point that combined driving really was better with a carriage, and finally let loose the lines.

And THAT is why you don't buckle the leader reins on a tandem. If the horse comes uncoupled from the wheeler you want the reins to slither free so he can run off without hurting your wheeler or dragging you off the carriage. I wonder how Philip managed to hold onto the reins as they went through the terrets?

Leia