Backyard breeders

[Jill]

A lot if people who stay in this hobby will learn to look for quality. While you may have missed selling them their first mini, maybe one day you will sell them a show or breeding mini. I know in myself, my first minis and the criteria used to chose them is not very comparable with how I selected the horses I have today.

 

[MountainWoman]

I totally agree with Maestro's post. On FB yesterday, there was a huge discussion about horse slaughter starting again and I have to wonder if those who breed ask themselves first why are they breeding, will they commit to the foal, will they take it back, will they screen buyers and will they have a signed contract when they place their horses requiring a standard of care. I think lots of people think they can purchase a few minis, start having babies and make money and then they get in over their head. And I think most of these buyers start out with the best of intentions and don't understand the difference in well bred minis or the time and effort that goes into showing, thoughtful breeding, etc.

As always, no matter what, it's the animals who pay the price. I think we best represent the breed when we are approachable, friendly, take our horses out and about to parades, etc., and spend time educating the public gently.

 

[HGFarm]

I dont particularly care for the term 'back yard breeder' as I have seen issues like this coming from big farms too that are supposed to be 'professionals'.

I think it is simply lack of ethics, a way to make a quick buck from an unsuspecting beginner or novice- con artists who talk a good story, take your money and then dont want anything else to do with anyone. They got what they wanted- your money.

I dont think it has anything to do with being a 'back yard breeder', but someone who lacks the morals and scruples to be honest and tell the truth- not a real horseman at all, as they are not breeding to better the breed- just want the almighty dollar. Those kind of people come in many sizes, shapes and forms- so buyer beware and do your homework BEFORE you hand them any money!

 

[rabbitsfizz]

Laurie I am sick to death of the term BYB- it should be "BIB"- Bad Irresponsible Breeder.

Breeding bad horses is not confined to a back yard, a big ranch, a small ranch, a rich person nor a poor one.

Sometimes it is caused by stupidity or ignorance, sometimes it is caused by greed, sometimes laziness.

Whatever it is, education of the purchaser is the only cure.

 

[txminipinto]

Laurie I am sick to death of the term BYB- it should be "BIB"- Bad Irresponsible Breeder.

Breeding bad horses is not confined to a back yard, a big ranch, a small ranch, a rich person nor a poor one.

Sometimes it is caused by stupidity or ignorance, sometimes it is caused by greed, sometimes laziness.

Whatever it is, education of the purchaser is the only cure.

AMEN!

If more people would do research, it would stop a lot of heartache down the road. I am a small breeder but I sure as heck don't consider myself a BYB by any stretch of the means. A lot of time and effort has gone in to the selection of my breeding stock as well as promoting that stock first in the show pen. I am a breeder that puts photos up quickly of new foals but only because I know the market is competitive. I stand behind every single foal as well. I'm honest and I'm always available to help out and give advice. My first repeat customer had a great year on the local PtHA circuit with her 2nd Pondering Oaks baby from me. We're always communicating about the "girls" and I make sure to do shout outs for her job well dones with them. Its important to be able to establish relationships with the people behind the horse and if they aren't willing to do that, maybe you need to find a different horse. I'm just as invested in seeing my clients successful as they are.

 

[targetsmom]

I agree with virtually all of Matt's (Maestro's) post, but have a little bit of an issue with this:

"Not worth breeding a $500 horse? Than I'd suggest not breeding period...."

If every breeder that was responsible, used high quality breeding stock, and did all the right things quit breeding because they couldn't afford to sell foals for $500, what kind of future would the miniature horse breed have? I doubt the BIBs care but responsible breeders do.

The solution, as I see it, is education, and one of the reasons we are starting a 4-H Club. I would rather GIVE a foal to an interested 4-Her who was learning all about minis, than sell one to an unknown buyer for $500 or even $3,000.

 

[wildoak]

Hawks eye... sorry you got burned on your purchase. There are still plenty of ethical, responsible breeders out there but unfortunately just as many of the kind you found. If you have registration/paper questions about your horse, I'd suggest you call either AMHA or AMHR and get them to walk you through it. They are usually very helpful, and should be eager to register your horse/horses.

I just watched a neighbor this morning load up probably close to a dozen minis for auction. They used to show and have had nice animals, but for various reasons have lost interest. I've been competing with him for several years, trying to sell horses I have invested in through mare care, vet bills, farrier, dentist, etc, when he can sell a $400 colt and make a profit. Guess I should be glad his horses are gone but it kind of broke my heart to see them all loaded up & gone, half of them probably never handled before.

Jan

 

[HGFarm]

Oh Jane, there ya go! BIB is a great term as I think it encompasses the needed parties, no matter who they are. I think perhaps you have coined a new term! Bibs!

And yes, so sorry that you are having trouble with paperwork- I also have contacted the registries with various questions over the years and they have always been very helpful. Also, if you need assistance or have a question, you can always email me too- I would be glad to help with anything I can. [email protected] I sure hope you can get it all straightened out.

 

[Hawks_Eye_Minis]

Thanks i got ahold of my geldings breeder now and shes helping me but nemos breeder i think i all but gave up on her... Who knwos whats true or whats going on... and yes i geuss i learned a lesson a big lesson but either way nemo has a home for life even if he cant be registered...

Im hoping i can just register him and move on from all this...

 

[mini horse mania]

Well, it IS POSSIBLE to guarrantee a foal will test homozygous IF both parents are homozygous.

I hope you mean that as a figure of speach about selling out fast. I cannot imagine anyone producing 100 foals a year and selling out fast for the prices you are talking about.

he sells from $800- $2500 and are sold usually within 3 weeks of birth- he does produce over 100 foals per year, It just makes me mad that when the foals are 4 hours old- they are UC Davis tested- I didnt know you could get results back that fast!!!

 

[Solo Farms]

I have often wondered if "pet quality" colts (or even show quality) were gelded before being sold if it would help this over population/ uneducated breeder situation. I bought an unregistered 2 year old miniature stallion at an auction for $10 (they couldn't get a bid) and gelded him. I later sold him for less than the gelding cost but at least I know he won't be able to cause any more "damage" in the mini world by breeding. I am not wealthy (not by a long shot) I did it for the love of the breed and for the horse. I don't think "pet quality" colts should be sold intact and I don't believe most buyers can or should be trusted to do the right thing and geld. If I find another $10 horse or find one online for free in my area, I would do again. I may be able to afford to only do it once a year but it would stop a whole lot of potential offspring from happening. It's too bad they don't have a cost effective procedure to fix the "pet quality" girls too.

I realize breeders may feel this approach would be more money they are losing but I think of the long term gain for the breed. Just food for thought...

Ok, got my flame suit on!

 

[Minimor]

If he's selling that many foals that fast, for that kind of money, he's obviously got something that a lot of people like.

I agree with virtually all of Matt's (Maestro's) post, but have a little bitof an issue with this:

"Not worth breeding a $500 horse? Than I'd suggest not breeding period...."

If every breeder that was responsible, used high quality breeding stock, and did all

the right things quit breeding because they couldn't afford to sell foals for $500,

what kind of future would the miniature horse breed have? I doubt the BIBs care but

responsible breeders do.

I don't think Matt was so much saying that it is a matter of not breeding if it

isn't worth it to sell for $500 or less--I took his words as meaning if you're raising higher priced horses

to sell, and if they aren't selling locally because the guy down the road is

selling his little pets for $200 and people bypass your farm to go & buy the $200

horses...and if you're trying to sell further afield and still cannot get your horses

sold for the prices you want...and it isn't worth it to you to sell them for less, then what is the point

raising foals to sell?

There are a lot of lower priced horses out there no matter where in the country one

lives-and a good many buyers do want just a family pet or a lower priced horse to

have "just for fun". If someone wants a couple of horses just because they like

horses and want to have a couple to go out and pet and talk to every day, or even if

they want to give the kids cart rides up and down the road a couple times a week,

the fact is a $200 horse without papers can fill the bill every bit as well as a

$1000 registered horse of show quality. I've talked to people who were horse

shopping, and everyone was trying to sell them $1500 horses and telling them that

they have to have papers. These people didn't want to pay that much or perhaps

didn't have that much money to spend. One lady I know was quite discouraged when

she asked me if it really is better to buy a registered horse, and why. I was

perfectly honest-I know this lady well and I know that there is no possibility that

she will ever want to show a horse. What does she need papers for??? She bought

herself a nice little unregistered weanling for not very much money & I tell you no

lie when I say that little horse has been as well looked after as a horse can be.

The mare is healthy and happy and very much loved. She's well fed, has a nice,

safe, comfortable home and her personality is perfect for her owner. The mare is

good quality, with sound conformation. Why on earth would I or anyone else tell a

person like this that she needed to pay at least 5X what she paid for this horse to

have a horse worth buying? I don't see that the seller of her horse took anything

away from any breeder with higher priced horses, because this particular buyer would

not have spent that much money anyway-if she couldn't have bought a horse in her

price range she wouldn't have bought a horse at all.

In my books, a breeder that cannot make sales because of a pet breeder down the road

needs to look at their own marketing. If you don't want to offer horses at a

comparable price to the competition then you need to sell horses to a completely

different market, one where people are willing to pay more money. In order to be

successful there you have to be able to offer what those particular buyers want to

spend money on. You cannot control what anyone else does with their horses or what

prices they sell them for, you can only control your own program and prices.

 

[targetsmom]

I guess my point is, that for ME to sell a foal for $500 or less, I know I would be losing money. If other people can do that, fine, but I will be losing money. So I might as well give them away locally if I can't sell them for what I would need to to make a profit. So I don't think I will stay in this very long - we will likely quit after this next year.

 

[Songcatcher]

he sells from $800- $2500 and are sold usually within 3 weeks of birth- he does produce over 100 foals per year, It just makes me mad that when the foals are 4 hours old- they are UC Davis tested- I didnt know you could get results back that fast!!!

I would really like to know who raises and sells over 100 foals per year, within 3 weeks of birth, for prices of $800-$2500 each. Must be a very successful breeder who has a product that a lot of people really want.

 

[jegray21]

This is a good topic. All of my minis have come with papers that I have had to register...we have teeth problems and when I first got them there were many health related issues due to lack of vet care. I could have bought many very nice show minis for what I have paid in vet care fixing the problems. I am not new to horses and I know I paid too much but seeing them in the situation they were in I could't leave them.

I am torn now because of course they keep breeding they way they breed. Babies die in the field and they let the coyotes take the body. I am always nervous about talking about this because it is a small world and maybe someone might figure out who I am talking about...but getting a filly covered in lice is just wrong. If you can't afford to give proper vet care the don't have your horses. I have learned a lot from this forum and you guys have helped with the health issues

wrong or right I couldn't leave them there. I wasn't looking for a show mini then I was looking for a pasture buddy for my horse..I do think the grade minis lead to wanting show minis!

 

[LaVern]

Very interesting topic. I agree with you Minimor. I some times think the no papered horses that I have given away, are loved and cared for better than some of the papered show horses I sell. I don't think most show horses are as happy as family loved pets -papered or not. Some of my old geldings that were given to kids now are loved and played with by their kids.

You can still find one team show up at the bar now and then. The owner has never been picked up and they always get him home. He has been offered lots for them, but no sale.

 

[wingnut]

Minimor: You described our situation perfectly. Our horses have ranged in price from free to $900. Had we not been able to find horses in this range, we would not have horses today. We would have missed out on an amazing journey. We have done a small amount of local showing and done well. I hope to have at least two horses driving a cart next year. After nearly 3 years, I now know the world of miniatures better and know that it would be highly unlikely that we'd ever get further down the road with the more high end showing arena. It's just not in our cards, so to speak. It makes me very sad to even think about the idea of never having had this amazing opportunity, which is what would be the case if only non-"backyard breeders" had been our option.

 

[shelia]

Most responsible breeders who have searched and gotten the best quality they can find and afford will still have some pet quality minis for sale from time to time. If a person wants a mini for just a pet, this is the best way to go. they have great deals on these. they are less likely to have health issues down the round which can be very expensive and heartbreaking.

If you buy a pet quality mini then DON"T BREED IT! There is a good reason it is being sold as pet quality. If you find later you want to get more involved in minis you do lots of research and get breeding quality.

Why waste your time and money on something that you have no background on. With no way to trace where it came from. If you want your children to be happy with a pet or you just want one for yourself, you need to be very careful what you buy.

It costs less in the long run to care for a well bred mini, than one than has been bred with no regard to to health problems.

Caring for a mini over its lifetime is going to cost more than what you paid anyway you go.

 

[Minimor]

Most responsible breeders who have searched and gotten the best quality they can find and afford will still have some pet quality minis for sale from time to time.

This is true.

If a person wants a mini for just a pet, this is the best way to go. they have great deals on these. they are less likely to have health issues down the round which can be very expensive and heartbreaking.

I wouldn't be speaking honestly if I agreed with this statement. While I do not support any breeder who does not care for his horses properly....someone who doesn't feed his horses enough or who doesn't give good quality feed, someone who doesn't bother with deworming or vaccinations, someone who refuses to call a vet when an animal needs vet care...I would not tell someone to go and buy from a "reputable breeder" rather than a "pet breeder" because that's the only way they will get a healthy horse. Sorry, I just have not observed that to be true. Some of the pet breeders I know look after their horses as well as anyone else, maybe better than some of the breeders who are raising registered show horses. Some of the horses I've seen that have come from some of these pet breeders are nicer quality than some (registered ones no less) that come from some better known farms that would be considered "reputable" and the horses I know that have come from pet breeders are normal, healthy horses, as healthy as any that come from anywhere else. I would not feel like I'm being honest if I said otherwise.

And no--I am not someone who is raising and selling foals for $500 or less--though I have been known to buy one here & there that was in that under $500 price range, and they were not unregistered pets. I have never bought an unregistered horse--I have never bought a horse on application. I will not buy anything that is not registered (unless it is a rescue situation where I simply cannot leave the horse where it is at--dire need of rescue is the only thing that cancels out the need for registration papers!)

 

[shelia]

This is true.

I wouldn't be speaking honestly if I agreed with this statement. While I do not support any breeder who does not care for his horses properly....someone who doesn't feed his horses enough or who doesn't give good quality feed, someone who doesn't bother with deworming or vaccinations, someone who refuses to call a vet when an animal needs vet care...I would not tell someone to go and buy from a "reputable breeder" rather than a "pet breeder" because that's the only way they will get a healthy horse. Sorry, I just have not observed that to be true. Some of the pet breeders I know look after their horses as well as anyone else, maybe better than some of the breeders who are raising registered show horses. Some of the horses I've seen that have come from some of these pet breeders are nicer quality than some (registered ones no less) that come from some better known farms that would be considered "reputable" and the horses I know that have come from pet breeders are normal, healthy horses, as healthy as any that come from anywhere else. I would not feel like I'm being honest if I said otherwise.

And no--I am not someone who is raising and selling foals for $500 or less--though I have been known to buy one here & there that was in that under $500 price range, and they were not unregistered pets. I have never bought an unregistered horse--I have never bought a horse on application. I will not buy anything that is not registered (unless it is a rescue situation where I simply cannot leave the horse where it is at--dire need of rescue is the only thing that cancels out the need for registration papers!)

What I mean by a reputable breeder is someone who takes good care of their horses and breeds carefully to insure the best quality they can. By quality I mean one that does not have defect that will affect it's health. I don't mean you should only breed something that will be in the top ten at the AMHA world show. (even though that is my goal)I also mean someone who will be honest with you.

I do, however think the best way to track the background is to have them in at least some sort of registery.

Some Breeders who only breed registered horses are not reputable breeders.

I don't mean to say don't get a rescue. Just be prepared, if it needs more care, and don't breed it.

I think getting a rescue for some people is a great idea. One less mini that will suffer, but don't create another one to take it's place or bump some other mini into that same fate.