Bachelor Herds & Breeding

[Little Wolf Ranch]

This is a take off from another thread that peaked my interest. . .

I have let all my stallions live together and have noticed that my oldest man "Sampson" rules the roost and all the others (ages 2 & up) are still doing the "baby smack" to him and they aren't too interested in breeding and arent "aggressive" like Sampson is. Could them all living together be the cause?

I would like to possibly breed my 2 year olds this year but with them acting so docile and baby like I didn't forsee it happening in 2010 and was going to wait until 2011 for them to breed.

Would seperating them all into individual paddocks do the trick? They would all be side by side as I have no easy way to put them anywhere else but I CAN seperate the large paddock into 4 smaller ones.

Thanks for any hints/tips!

 

[jegray21]

I separated my two year old from the other stallions and turned him out with my donkey. He is much happier and more stud like now. I am going to wait until he is three. I am used to having the stallions separated. None of the stallions I have handled would have been safe to turnout together or even with a mare. My miniature stallion age three is not good turned out with or colts or geldings.

My large horse does do not get along with other horses. The same goes for the boarding horse I have. The common practice with sport horses around here is separate turnout to protect the investment. When investing 40,000 and up its understandable. I know many people disagree with this but..Honestly tried and Ike just hates other horses. He was a show horse his whole life and was turned out separate due to preventing injuries. Now he is semi retired and still prefers his space. So not sure if this answers your question.

All comes down to the individual horse and what works best with them.

 

[Miniv]

I agree with jegray21. It IS very often about the individual horse -- how they've been raised, AND their personality.

We personally have a young Bachelor Band. We also have two stallions who have each been used for breeding and are successfully wintering together. We may have to separate them as Spring hits.

Our Bachelors each mature at different times. It's been interesting to watch the change in the pecking order over this last month........primarily because of hormones.

I will say that we also have and HAVE had mature stallions who we would NEVER in a MILLION YEARS put in with another stallion.

Keep an eye on your young fellows and you will notice when the hormones kick in. It should begin happening in another month or so.

 

[Margaret]

Great question Katie.. Yes Bachelor herds can be a good idea when everyone gets along..

But I think the reason you have shy or seemingly unintrested boys in that batch is because they are intimidated by the #1 stud, and dont allow themselves to be intrested.

But, put those same submissive boys in an area by themselves with a open mare and see a different boy emerge altogether..

I have even seen stallions that have not fully dropped, in a bachelor herd situtation with a dominate male, and once they were removed from that situtation, they dropped fully after a few months of being around their own cycling mare to talk to and tease.

Giving them the space they need in an unintimidated environment can make all the difference.

 

[Nathan Luszcz]

There are two different kinds of bachlor herds, and harem herds. A harem stallion is ideal for a breeding situation, and involves a single stallion and "his" mares. The mares don't need to be with him, as long as he calls them his. For example, if his paddock or his stall overlooks a paddock of mares, and he can see and talk to them, even from a distance, he's a harem stud.

Bachlor herds are groups of colts or stallions living together, with no mares in the picture. (if there are mares in the picture this becomes a dangerous situation!) There are two types... raised from birth or put together later in life. Groups that are raised from birth together would be a year or two's colt crop living together on a relatively perminent basis. These colts would have established a very comfortable pecking order and would play and interact freely. If you remove one of these colts for some breeding you won't notice that big of a difference from a harem stud, other than their numbers won't be quite as high. Interest, fertility, etc wouldn't be affected.

A bachlor herd created later in life, ie taking a group of harem stallions and pasturing them together, is a potentially dangerous situation, both to their safety and to their future breeding proformance. The initial interaction and pecking order is the physical risk, and once established isn't that big of a deal. However, the bachlor stallion's bodies will start to shut down breeding instincts and will actually shrink testicular size and as a direct result, testosterone production. These effects can be perminent. If seperated from this herd and reintroduced to a harem status, they will regain much of their drive (hopefully) but may never return to their previous capabilities.

In short, a bachlor herd isn't a bad thing, and if kept since early in life pose no problems to a full time breeding stallion. However, you take significant risk by creating a mature bachlor herd later in life. Their breeding abilities may be perminently comprimised by this action. This is the natural result of centuries of inbred instincts. Once a herd stallion is exiled from their herd, they no longer have the right to breed. The horse doesn't care if another colt exiles him or if you do, the result is similar.

People rave about how natural their minis live, compared to big horses. Colt herds are natural, mature bachlor herds are not

In this case, big horse owners with harem studs are much more natural and in tune to their stud's needs than those who put a group of mature stallions together and call them a bachlor herd.

To reiterate again, a colt that is not dropped WILL NOT DROP. The ring closes within a few months of birth making it physically impossible. Yearlings and two year olds who are said to not have dropped ARE, they are just better at hiding them than you are at finding them

 

[Charlotte]

As Nathan said, keeping stallions together reduces their testosterone levels. there was a study at one of the teaching universities a few years back (I don't remember where). the testosterone level of stallions who were placed into a 'bachelor herd' situation dropped to that of geldings within 24 hours of being placed in that situation. Not a good idea if you want to use one of those horses for breeding.

Charlotte

 

[Becky]

I agree with everything Nathan and Charlotte said. I, too, have read that keeping stallions together reduces their testosterone level.

As has been noted, keeping breeding stallions together will cause the less aggressive ones to become very docile in many cases. Which in turn affects their fertility and breeding ability both physically and mentally. I want my stallions to be stallions in all areas.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

My stallions are together when the testosterone has dropped anyway ie the winter.

I have never had a problem with it, and I have never seen any "lack of drive" with my boys when they come back for work in the spring.

It would be dangerous to put them together in summer, in fact I would say it would be impossible.

My colt is not submissive to the older stallion at this time of year, in fact he plays really roughly with him.

In summer the stallion would annihilate the colt in a moment!

So, basically, what you see in winter, or in a totally false situation like a male only herd, will not give you a true idea of that horse when it is with a mare.

What you can't do, though, is take a submissive colt from a male only herd, breed him to a mare then put him back with the herd.

That is when you will run into trouble as you will have altered his perspective on his world, he may then start fights as he tries to alter the pecking order.

 

[Nathan Luszcz]

Testosterone levels in the winter are not as low as they are in a bachlor herd situation. It is quite easy to breed a stud in the off season, in fact, that's when the majority of frozen semen is banked, when the demand for fresh or cooled is not an issue.

 

[Little Wolf Ranch]

So essentially I should go ahead and give each of these boys a space of their own to call home, correct? They are all friendly to each other except for my one head honcho Sampson. In fact, the mares and fillies live just on the other side of the fence from the boys and I have never had any fence pacing or anything - is that strange?

The only way I can successfully do this is by taking my one large stallion paddock and dividing it up to make 4 small individual paddocks that are side by side - would this be adequate or do they need to be seperate as in farther away from each other?

I thought this may be part of the problem of them being shy and timid so maybe this will help? I don't forsee my 2 year olds getting a chance to actually breed this year but would teasing them with an open and cycling mare help to "rev up" their engines per say? Then letting them breed their 3 year old year?

It's not a problem for me to do this I would just like opinions! Thanks for all the opinions so far!

 

[Farina]

I am very interested in that study, because we have never watched dropped testosterone levels.

Our stallions breed on hand (is this term right? we lead him to the mare, mount and thean lead him away from the mare) and we have had never problems with their behavior.

We don't want them to act all time like little matchos I like to drive and compete them at CDE's.

We don't breed 2-year-old stallions. I think this is far to early.

 

[Becky]

Here's a link to the article written by the University of Pennsylvania.

Bachelor and Harem Stallion Behavior and Endocrinology

Testosterone levels were evaluated not only by observation but also by blood plasma. Very interesting reading!

 

[rabbitsfizz]

Testosterone levels in the winter are not as low as they are in a bachelor herd situation. It is quite easy to breed a stud in the off season, in fact, that's when the majority of frozen semen is banked, when the demand for fresh or cooled is not an issue.

Possibly true, but they are lower, and, combined with the fact that this is the time it suits me to put all my entires in together, it works just fine for me!!!

Obviously it also works fine for a number of other people.

Thanks for that report, Becky, I look forward to reading it.

 

[Nathan Luszcz]

Nobody said it didn't work for you

Only that it does have effects on the boys, whether you believe it or not.

 

[MountainMeadows]

Perhaps Nathan can pipe in here on something that I was told. That was, that stallions that are frequently teased will build up an excess of seminal fluid which can be detrimental to the semen of the stud (cutting the semen output by as much as 50% during peak season in the summer) - therefore, restricted teasing - or using a teaser "stud" is preferred and then the appropriate stallion is actually used for the actual breeding. That is why collecting stallions during the "off season" is much more common - not as much teasing activity going on due to the mare's not cycling

What do you say Nathan?

Stac

 

[Nathan Luszcz]

Yes, that is true, somewhat. More teasing will increase the volume of the seminal plasma. It won't cut back on sperm quantity though. Nor is it stored... unless you take it to extremes, the effect is only applicable for a few hours to a day. IE if you tease a stud for 20 minutes before breeding, the volume of his ejaculate will be very high, and the quality low. If you tease for 1 minute, or less, your quantity will be much lower, and your quality will be higher (this is ideal). If you tease for hours every day, you may see a chronic effect. NORMALLY that isn't a big deal, but if your stallions is constantly teased you'll find that his semen is very dilute. The extra volume can cause the mare to pool fluid (its the seminal plasma that causes semen reactions). It will also dilute the semen and can shorten its lifespan.

On the other hand, small amounts of seminal plasma will help keep spermatozoas inside the mare's body alive longer and more fertile for a larger window. That is one of the reasons that pasture breeding has higher fertility rates. The stallion will breed the mare many times during the day, to the point where he's not adding any additional sperm, but IS adding seminal plasma, which keeps what's already inside alive a little longer.

It is advised to tease the stallion as little as possible to get the job done. Unless you are seeking peek efficiency, it is not nessesary to go to the extreme of buying a tease horse. But if you have a stallion you aren't breeding that day, and have a number of mares for other stallions, use the non-breeding boy to do your teasing and keep the other boys "saved" for the real job.

I'm tired, getting ready for foal watch, so I may be rambling

Does this answer the question?

 

[ruffian]

Possibly true, but they are lower, and, combined with the fact that this is the time it suits me to put all my entires in together, it works just fine for me!!!Obviously it also works fine for a number of other people.

Thanks for that report, Becky, I look forward to reading it.

I have 4 colts, 3 2YO and a yearling. The 2yos' are 35", 32". and 27". I had to separate the 32" and 27" because they fought all the time. So the little guy is in with the yearling normally. They managed to mess up the hot wire so I had to put them all together for a little while to fix the fence. Those 2 (32 & 27) fought and ran for a good 20 minutes, drew blood on the mouth of one, and were steaming hot by the time I was able to get them separated. The other 2 just stood and watched and nibbled on hay. Once back with their regular stall mates, there was no issue at all.

So you might not have to make 4 pens, it depends on how the horses are intereacting, even in the dead of winter. Because believe me, their testosterone level is just one part of the equation.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

It does depend a lot on the individual horses....whilst all mine, geldings and entires, will go in together in the winter, Rabbit will not go in with any horse, male or female, summer or winter.

I have tried and tried and tried, but he picks a fight with absolutely anything and, at 28", once put a middle weight Hunter gelding standing 16.00hh out over three fences (Rabbit went under) and up onto a grass verge by a road....then Rabbit came home, no doubt dusting off his hooves as he did so!

There is no pleasing some horses!

 

[Little Wolf Ranch]

So you might not have to make 4 pens, it depends on how the horses are intereacting, even in the dead of winter. Because believe me, their testosterone level is just one part of the equation.

The only one who is pushy, bossy and aggressive is my 5 y/o stallion. The next most aggressive is my 3 y/o stallion but the two 2 y/o's are great buddies and get along just great, although one is more dominant over the other. They follow each other around and wherever you find one you will find the other. However, my 5y/o and 3 y/o prefer to be by themselves.

PLEASE ANSWER THESE QUESTIONS FOR ME:

If I am not correct, please feel free to correct me but are you guys saying that when multiple stallions are housed in the same pen, that it decreases testosterone and sperm count?

If these were your boys, would you seperate each boy into his own pen or would you seperate the 5y/o and 3y/o into their own private pens and keep the two 2y/os together?

I plan on doing supervised paddock breeding (tease the mare with the stallion, if she is in heat, pasture them together for a week and then take her out. tease her the following month to see if she comes in heat) so do you think that these timid boys (who will be 3 next year) will change into a stallion more interested in breeding once he is alone with his own mare(s) and away from the other "men" of the farm?

Please give me any tips/hints/etc. that you think may help.

Katie

 

[rabbitsfizz]

They will, ideally, need to be separate when you are breeding them, however you plan on doing it.

I always separate my entires in the summer months, it is just good practice, even if they are not breeding.

How you keep your boys wouldn for me, depend on how big your fields are, for example my two boys are happy in a three acre paddock, and were still happy when they had the two geldings in with them, it was big enough for them to have space and there is an area in one corner with bushes and brambles, where the less certain can hide out.

If they are in small pens, then no, I would not put them together unless they are used to being together.

I do feel your boys will perk up in spring, even the "shy" ones, and breeding in hand to start with would help a lot.

Please note:

I do not stand two year olds to outside mares for a number of reasons.

I would not, personal;y, use a stallion that was being "run" in with the mares, too risky, I am afraid!!