At the dentist

[Jean_B]

OK, let me expand on my rather short comment earlier. I have all of my horses checked every year by a certified equine dentist. If they don't need any work, no charge. One of the dentists was also an equine chiropractor and there was no additional charge for an adjustment (one of my stallions needed to be adjusted every year).

I have worked with several different ones over the years, have been happy with all of them. None used sedation unless the horse was a total nut case, and those are VERY few and far between. The horses do NOT need to be wrestled or man-handled. The dentists have all been calm, quiet and the horses know that he likes them. They relax, even when the speculum is in their mouth and the rasping starts. I simply stand off to the side, ready to grab on if necessary, but rarely do I need to do this. I'm approaching "elderly" and have had a knee replacement, but still have no concerns about a horse doing any damage to me.

Most of these dentists will fly to you - what I have done in the past was lined up a bunch of farms in a big loop....which does take a bunch of time and coordination, but it is a great way to get excellent care to a lot of different farms. We all shared in the cost of the dentist's transport (much better than just one farm paying the full tab). Most had a spare bedroom to put them up (depending on how many farms, usually was a 2 to 5 day booking), but if someone did not have a spare room, would split the cost of the hotel. Meals were provided by each of the farms when he was there.

 

[Rocklone Miniature Horses]

Yes I too don't believe they need done every year. This one needs done again in 6 months due to some confirmation but then should be good for a while. My old mare is still good she was done two years ago but I have an appointment for her anyway (in doing one horse a month to help keep costs down)

 

[AngC]

.... If they don't need any work, no charge. One of the dentists was also an equine chiropractor and there was no additional charge for an adjustment ...

... None used sedation unless the horse was a total nut case, and those are VERY few and far between. The horses do NOT need to be wrestled or man-handled. The dentists have all been calm, quiet and the horses know that he likes them.

I must be living on a different planet. If I hire any sort of equine practitioner, regardless whether the horse needs work, I still pay. (As a side note, I don't believe in adjustments or chiropractic whack-jobbers.)

My husband and I spend a lot of time with our little goobers; with some success.

I don't think our horse are nut cases. I do think our horses have normal responses to danger that I would want for animals that live where they may have to protect themselves. ...but I just can't see any way of gentling our horses to the point where their mouths are pried wide open, with a metal thing-a-ma-joober shoved in there while the vet uses a drill on their teeth.

???

 

[Rocklone Miniature Horses]

if you have never tried one how would you know your horses would have a reaction? It's really not that stressful. They chomp on it much like they would chomp on a bit of wood and they focus on this rather than the rest. Frankly I think if any horse panicked getting stuff like this done they have not been introduced to enough situations.

As dor chiropractor whack jobs - one saved my mares life.

 

[Marsha Cassada]

My new horse had the dentist yesterday. She said he had a very good mouth. When his mother had her teeth done a few years ago the vet exclaimed that she had the "perfect miniature horse mouth". I always wondered if he meant a perfect mouth in miniature, or if he meant a perfect mouth for a miniature horse.

Now my new boy will definitely be seeing a chiropractor whenever it works out for her visit. I have had too many positive results from that to disregard its benefits.

My dentist uses a tool rather like a dremel that has a foot pedal. She puts her whole hand in his mouth and feels as the tool works. It is nothing like the power tool I've seen other places. Just faint whizzing sounds and never a nick on the gums. Then a little wheel that tidies up the front teeth.

 

[Jean_B]

I must be living on a different planet. If I hire any sort of equine practitioner, regardless whether the horse needs work, I still pay. (As a side note, I don't believe in adjustments or chiropractic whack-jobbers.

This is the DENTIST'S policy, not mine !!! If they wanted to charge a "look-see" fee, I wouldn't have a problem with that, but NONE of the 3 certified equine dentists I have worked with over the years has ever charged that!! There are always enough horses that do need work each time that it is definitely worth their time.

Whack-jobbers??? Seriously? Have you ever had your back go out and are sitting there in pain? Do you just "tough it out" or do you get pain pills or do you go to a whack-jobber? This happens to horses too, and believe me, you will see a HUGE difference in how a horse "tracks" once an adjustment is made. HUGE!

And in all the many years I've had dental work done - have never had a horse require sedation, and no restraint. Only once did someone else on the circuit require it for a horse, and that was one that blew up if it saw a feather move.

 

[Rocklone Miniature Horses]

My new horse had the dentist yesterday. She said he had a very good mouth. When his mother had her teeth done a few years ago the vet exclaimed that she had the "perfect miniature horse mouth". I always wondered if he meant a perfect mouth in miniature, or if he meant a perfect mouth for a miniature horse.

Now my new boy will definitely be seeing a chiropractor whenever it works out for her visit. I have had too many positive results from that to disregard its benefits.

My dentist uses a tool rather like a dremel that has a foot pedal. She puts her whole hand in his mouth and feels as the tool works. It is nothing like the power tool I've seen other places. Just faint whizzing sounds and never a nick on the gums. Then a little wheel that tidies up the front teeth.

Ive only ever seen one with a tool, never a foot pedal lol

 

[Rocklone Miniature Horses]

As for the back person, this post shows what happens when you get a good one:

http://www.miniaturehorsetalk.com/index.php?/topic/137056-what-is-wrong-with-her/

 

[paintponylvr]

The one thing that I've noticed, is that there is a HUGE difference in cost from area to area and state to state here in the USA. There is also a BIG difference in what is available as far as vets - and what each could/would do at the farm vs at their clinic or hospital, equine chiropractors, equine dentists & equine massage therapists.

When I came back to NC with ponies in 1997 - there weren't that many vets period and certainly weren't any that really wanted to work on ponies or minis. Even w/i a vet practice with more than one vet, while prices may be standardized, what they feel is necessary for the treatment of an injury or an ailment can be quite different! Now, for the first time in over 10 years - I have my choice of probably 10 different equine vets and the farm call charges per vet would be roughly the same (ie - distance traveled to come to our farm).

I have to admit, I've never been charged by any vet, since getting back into horses/ponies in 1995, an exam fee per horse during a scheduled farm visit or a scheduled vet clinic visit in which routine care was going to be given. HOWEVER, that is personally covered by the FARM CHARGE if they come to my farm or the OFFICE FEE that I pay if I take a load of ponies in to the clinic. One vet did charge a small fee per horse - but it wasn't called an exam fee - it probably could have been, but it was also the only time I didn't pay a large® office fee of one sum. But something else - I've very rarely scheduled anything for just 1 horse/pony and always have a rather lengthy list of what needs to be done. When ever I get coggins drawn (Coggins tests are required in NC and anytime a horse is hauled off your property - any state, county or federal police/sheriff etc, can stop you and check your paperwork - some of the fines per horse are atrocious!!), I have teeth checked on each one that has blood drawn. That is when we determine if someone needs to have their teeth done - we've never sedated them for that exam, usually don't even use a speculum and I've never been charged for that "look-see". I usually broke up my "regular" vet visits to 4X or 6X per year - on each visit we'd do several coggins/rabies vax, floats (on someone who had not had cog/rv), u/s on preggo mares, sometimes a follow up to a treatment that was seen previously and checked each of the cog/rv horses to see who would be floated the next visit. I usually pay a certain amount every month on my "account" ahead of time and then have the balance in cash the day of the visit.

Now an emergency visit - usually involving serious leg injuries, one time a colic, 2 times a "choke" which was treated similarly but not quite the same as impaction colics, three different times an eye injury one of which required surgery - there has been an exam fee. I don't have a problem with that fee then - as it is what determines the best course of action at the time and some of those "exams" have been quite lengthy. Because ER type visits were usually "after hours" and not a pre-scheduled farm visit - I didn't have other things done (well, sometimes we did - depending on the situation

) and besides the flat rate farm charge, there is usually an extra ER/after hours fee, too.

Most of the vets that I have come out to the farm, after the first visit, will usually "plug in" a bit of extra time for me/us - because it never fails I've forgotten something OR after visiting and asking questions of each other, we do something more (o - you have the ultra-sound machine with you and it only costs that much?? - can we add 2 of those to this visit rather than scheduling for another visit later?) OR ... "Doc, she is acting off since she fell in the mud last week, since you are here, can we do a lameness check as I'm just not seeing what is wrong..." or after asking questions about a lump the doc was quite excited to be "allowed" to excise that lump and determine what caused it (that was another one of those REALLY ICKY things - it was a sarcoid that developed from a fly bite and EWEEEEWWWW)... For that there wasn't an exam fee, but there was a "field surgery" fee - which I'm sure covered both time and the "tools" used - IE 2 scalpels, surgical scrub and extra gauze used during the procedure. There was also some type of testing fee - as the sarcoid itself was sent out to State to be tested to see what it actually was. Drugs were charged by what was given/received. By the next farm visit, 2 months later, there wasn't even a scar left on that mare's neck and we had to search for where the lump had been removed and it was quite the wound that was opened up and left open (no stitches on a neck - at least not by my vets. The edges of the "wound area" were trimmed back and allowed to grow back in from the inside out). Those are only a few things that have "happened" during a scheduled farm visit that we ultimately did quite a few extra things on one farm call that hadn't originally been scheduled. We also found that if the vet had more than my farm scheduled, they/we tried to always schedule my guys last - due to having "extra" things done, LOL. AND a few times I've had a vet say no, we don't have time to do that extra bit and it needs to be scheduled for the next time we come out OR scheduled individually - pdq.

 

[AngC]

This is the DENTIST'S policy, not mine !!! If they wanted to charge a "look-see" fee, I wouldn't have a problem with that, but NONE of the 3 certified equine dentists I have worked with over the years has ever charged that!! There are always enough horses that do need work each time that it is definitely worth their time.

Whack-jobbers??? Seriously? Have you ever had your back go out and are sitting there in pain? Do you just "tough it out" or do you get pain pills or do you go to a whack-jobber? This happens to horses too, and believe me, you will see a HUGE difference in how a horse "tracks" once an adjustment is made. HUGE!

And in all the many years I've had dental work done - have never had a horse require sedation, and no restraint. Only once did someone else on the circuit require it for a horse, and that was one that blew up if it saw a feather move.

Wow. I didn't mean to upset anyone/you about whatever freebies you get.

I'm sorry I referred to chiropractors as whack-jobs. I don't believe in chiropractic practitioners; I don't believe in faith healers either. But that doesn't mean I should refer to them by demeaning terms. I am sorry.

I do know what it feels like to "sit there in pain." Usually I get up and walk around to get things feeling better. I know what a screwed up back feels like. And a screwed up hip and some other screwed up achy, painful, broken stuff. Sometimes it hurts so bad I don't want to get out of bed in the morning, but the horses need to eat. I guess I'm using them for motivation. I made a choice ten years or so ago, that I didn't want the percosets or vicodans and whatever else they wanted to dose me with. So yeah, I do just tough it out. Seriously.

I don't know what it is to have a horse "track." I think all of ours walk and run ok--from what I can see. Even Nicky, the blind one--although, he usually seems to like me to be in the pasture with him when he really gets to running/bucking.

I genuinely don't know how a horse should behave. I've been trying to work with ours a lot. I use restraint for hoof trims; i.e., they're haltered and tied. The last couple times the farrier was here, Nicky fell asleep while his hooves were being trimmed. Coco is pretty good too (once she's haltered) she often lifts her leg before the farrier can touch her leg. Baby's pretty good too, but she has a short attention span and sometimes tries to nibble on his ball cap. I don't know... do other people have hoof trimming done without restraint? i.e., off-halter? Really? Seems kind of rude to the farrier. For the same reason I can't envision having dental work done without restraint.

I don't know about the dental work. It's one thing for somebody on the internet to tell me that my horses are a piece o' crap if they can't take a speculum and a bunch of grinding without a sedative. But it's a whole 'nother thing to actually try that. I don't know; that just seemed like rather an intensive procedure to be performed without sedatives. I'm not too keen on the sedatives, but I also don't want a horse hurt.

 

[Rocklone Miniature Horses]

If you are suffering pain, you may NEED a chiropractor. They are not just self appointed persons like faith healers and spiritualists, they are doctors with PHds and certificates. My equine one is a dr who has left humans behind and learned on horses with vets etc. He didn't just decide to call himself a chiropractor.

I could hoof trim all my horses without restraint, but i don't really call a halter restraint.

As for the procedure being invasive, well yes it is as it is for your self, but it is not drilling the mouth. There is no drills, there is no damage done they are just grinding the teeth down which have no nerves. I have had this procedure myself actually due to a long tooth i did not like, and it was not painful or unpleasant at all. The hum of the equipment was actually quite relaxing. If more needs done such as teeth removed etc then yes sedatives are needed, again like humans.

 

[Jean_B]

What I meant by tracking.....a show gelding belonging to a friend - after a VERY long ride to nationals was "out" in his back, resulting in him walking with his back legs splayed and swinging a little wide. Now, the owner was of a similar mind, but thought what the heck, and had the dentist/chiropractor look at him. Besides giving him a 'bit seat' in his mouth so that he was much more comfortable driving, he did a big adjustment on the horse's back. That horse sighed in relief, and immediately started walking with his back legs "tracking" straight, not swinging wide, etc. There was no more "hitch in his gitty up."

 

[AngC]

If you are suffering pain, you may NEED a chiropractor. They are not just self appointed persons like faith healers and spiritualists, they are doctors with PHds and certificates. My equine one is a dr who has left humans behind and learned on horses with vets etc. He didn't just decide to call himself a chiropractor.

I could hoof trim all my horses without restraint, but i don't really call a halter restraint.

As for the procedure being invasive, well yes it is as it is for your self, but it is not drilling the mouth. There is no drills, there is no damage done they are just grinding the teeth down which have no nerves. I have had this procedure myself actually due to a long tooth i did not like, and it was not painful or unpleasant at all. The hum of the equipment was actually quite relaxing. If more needs done such as teeth removed etc then yes sedatives are needed, again like humans.

I admire anyone who earns a PHD. I'm dubious how many chiropractic PHD's are wandering around out there. According to the ACC, which I only glanced at quickly, it seems like it takes roughly the equivalent of a 4-year degree. I don't totally dismiss the idea that chiropractic treatments could be beneficial but I'm hugely dubious and prefer to spend my money on someone that spent the time/money/residency/etc. on a vet degree.

Regarding drilling.... I can only speak for my experience. The tool used on our horses' mouths was definitely a drill; a De Walt with a repurposed drill bit. The speculum was for large horses with a fitting rig to fit our minis. The supporting straps were strung up on the barn rafters. I am/was nervous about the sedation, but on the other hand, I think there was a much larger potential for horse injury without the sedation.

And for myself; I don't need a chiropractor. I think they're quacks. Sorry. That's just what I believe.

By the way, in addition to choosing not to dose with painkillers to spend the rest of my life woozy, I also chose not to use the Premarin offered by the doctor for menopause. Yeah, the sweats and the chocolate cravings are inconvenient, but on the other hand I figure if I can't go out to the pasture and drink it from the source than I don't need it ( not to be gross, but.)

 

[AngC]

By the way, I can't stop trusting the DVMs from the vet hospital, because if I did, well then what?

I think they've treated us fairly. I really liked the lady that did our horses teeth and all the shots and laminitis treatment. She remembered Nicky from his eye injury and he may have remembered her; he allowed her to hug him. (Anyone that hugs my stinky, dirty horse already earned brownie points) There were things they did that earned my trust. For instance, despite I don't know what it means, they gave me toothie charts with notations on what they did. For the vaccines/sedatives they wrote down lot numbers. Unfortunately that lady DVM left for one of the Carolina states (hope she isn't drowning.)

 

[Rocklone Miniature Horses]

One bad dentist/chiro should not make you consider them all quacks. You've just not picked good ones.

 

[AngC]

One bad dentist/chiro should not make you consider them all quacks. You've just not picked good ones.

What??? I must have missed something here??? Here, there were no chiro's at all and no "bad" dentists. I try to spend time researching my "picks."

I haven't used any equine chiropractor. I, personally, have not used any human chiropractor either. [The husband did try a human chiropractor once. After awhile (and after the chiropractor elicited his fees) the husband ended up at a medical doctor.] And I'm sorry if it offends you, but chiropractors have a bit of history that encourages doubt. Wikipedia is a nice starting point, because it lists references: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiropractic_controversy_and_criticism

Regarding equine dentists. Nowhere did I say I had a bad experience with an equine dentist. I had a bad experience with trying to cram everything into one farm visit. It's made me cautious. Perhaps there's something about not giving all the vaccines at once; or perhaps there's something with the rabies vaccine? I DON"T KNOW. I fixated on the rabies vaccine, because I felt that the horse we had to kill off exhibited symptoms of rabies. I was probably wrong. I don't want to put down another horse, so I wanted all the vaccines. I'm thinking I shouldn't have done everything at once. My current experiment is to spread out vet treatments, vaccines, etc.

By the way, when Pokee was put down I had a scant 6 hours to decide whether to call the meat wagon or somehow get her to the vet hospital for analysis (with our only truck capable of hauling --at the time-- out of town) God help me, but I put Pokee on the meat wagon. She was already starting to stink by 10 in the morning and poor Nicky was freaking. My only consolation is that I've since had a vet tell me that the analysis they offer could not have detected rabies. I always wonder how other people fared that bought horses at the Nordstrom auction. I think I asked here once but nobody replied.

Incidentally, I wonder whether there's some terminology mismatch in this discussion. I checked back on the site of the ONLY person I found who claimed to be an equine dentist servicing the Pacific Northwest. Nowhere on her site does it say that she took specialized courses in equine dentistry. All she claims is that she's a vet, and her specialty is dentistry (self-anointed?) And she mentions that in WA and ID equine dentistry requires one to be a DVM by law. ...which is about what they say at the vet hospital I've chosen to use.

 

[paintponylvr]

Equine Dentists in NC are supposed to be vets as well, but I've heard of a few that operate "under the radar" - not sure how - haven't checked. However, they aren't supposed to be able to get regulated drugs that MAY be necessary. Not all horses are sedated for basic dental procedures.

I know of one equine dentist here who is not a vet - he asks that you coincide his visit with a vet's so that if anything is needed it's right there at hand.

My regular vet is getting out of doing some "work" (ie - farm calls and dental work) since she now owns the Spay Neuter Vet Clinic that I work for. She's reducing farm calls with the eventual goal to have none. She is, at this time, still doing 4 "vaccination clinics" a year at a local feed store. Those go from 10-2 on a Saturday - 1x a quarter. She will do equine, bovine, goats, sheep & llama/alpacas outside and dogs, cats, ferrets inside. No surgery or teeth floats at that time though. Often vet students/interns from NCSU come and get valuable experience - working with the clientele and the animals. So I now have 2 other vets that will do teeth - one at the farm and one a haul down - with all the new construction around Ft Bragg - the mileage has gone from 45 to 60 miles one way.

 

[Marsha Cassada]

The dentist I use is Board Certified by the State. She is not a vet.