ASPC stallions via frozen semen ?
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Lizzie
Well-Known Member
Something I have noticed in Minis (compared to other breeds) is that very few seem to offer cooled/frozen semen. I have been looking at stallions and if one doesn't wish to ship their mares across the country, one is left with either breeding locally, or purchasing one's own stallion. I wonder why this is in Minis?
Lizzie
Lizzie
Lizzie
There is a myth that it doesn't work in miniatures which too many people have bought into. In some parts of the country I guess its pretty pricey. We can do shipped fresh very reasonably, but I am lucky in that I have a farm that does equine reproduction just a couple houses down from my farm.
I see shipped fresh semen used much more in the Shetlands than the miniatures.
There is a myth that it doesn't work in miniatures which too many people have bought into. In some parts of the country I guess its pretty pricey. We can do shipped fresh very reasonably, but I am lucky in that I have a farm that does equine reproduction just a couple houses down from my farm.
I see shipped fresh semen used much more in the Shetlands than the miniatures.
Nathan Luszcz
Well-Known Member
Personally, I think its the expense.... if you can buy an okay stallion for $1000, why pay $750 to ship a dose ("A" dose) of frozen semen? People aren't afraid of miniature stallions like they are of large stallions, so they are more willing to buy one. Big horse people are more willing to pay several thousand dollars for a breeding, and are more willing to go to the BEST stallions, rather than owning their own "average" stallion. I wish it wasn't so
But minis have the reputation of being more affordable and cheaper than big horses, and have cultivated that view to the new folks who get into minis.
As far as the frozen aspect, there is a thread in the best of group discussing the cost of AI. To collect and prepare an ejaculate for freezing, it COSTS several hundred dollars, assuming you already own the $100,000 worth of equipment. So $500-700 per collection isn't unreasonable. But if you are the one paying the bill, especially with a horse with such small testicles (and therefore less yield), its too much to swallow.
As far as the frozen aspect, there is a thread in the best of group discussing the cost of AI. To collect and prepare an ejaculate for freezing, it COSTS several hundred dollars, assuming you already own the $100,000 worth of equipment. So $500-700 per collection isn't unreasonable. But if you are the one paying the bill, especially with a horse with such small testicles (and therefore less yield), its too much to swallow.
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Nathan Luszcz
Well-Known Member
The semen can easily last the travel. Customs is the issue... it can take up to 72 hours to clear a customs shipment. It'd all be dead by then. 72 hours is really pushing it for fresh/cooled semen.
On top of that, the testing required to clear a shipment for international travel can take several days to prepare. Depending on the country, it could take weeks to prepare the stallion to be able to ship. Quarantine, pre-collection cultures, post ejaculate cultures, blood tests, etc. Its really a big deal
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Nathan Luszcz
Well-Known Member
Its my passion
Really miss doing it. #*&$ economy.
Im not sure if that is accurate? I am no authority but that is not what I have been told.
But there is the issue of getting it through customs quick enough.
I am working on another estimate this weekend for someone in Germany for frozen so I will post when I get the costs totaled. I am thinking when I checked last year it was around 1500-2000. Now if you think of the cost of having a stallion shipped to Europe its cheap.
For some it maybe well worth it to introduce new bloodlines.
Nathan Luszcz
Well-Known Member
Unfortunately it is accurate
Can't ship to the EU/Europe/Africa/Aisa without USDA export authority. Only Canada
Not sure about Mexico.
Lizzie
Well-Known Member
A couple of Gypsy Horse owners, are shipping to Australia now I believe. Don't know about the cost though.
Lizzie
Lizzie
Nathan Luszcz
Well-Known Member
Frozen semen! What an owner usually does is gauge demand (either through an agent who deals it for them and puts in an order for x doses, or independantly), then send their horse to an USDA Export qualified breeding farm. They will quarantine the stallion (depending on the country they are exporting to, you need to know in advance so you do the right tests. Some countries do not require quarantine), run whatever pre-tests they need, clean out the stallion (can freeze that for domestic use), then start export freezing. The facility will have a very specific guideline as far as what tests they need for the country you are aiming for, and will program the schedule to meet the requirements. Once the required number of doses are frozen, the entire batch is stored in a sterilized export-only dewar (the thingy that holds the nitrogen). Once everything is ready, its packed into a special shipping dewar that is specifically sterilized for export, inspected by the USDA, tests verified, then sealed. Then its sent to the destination country, processed, inspected, and allowed to be delivered to the appropriate farm, where its re-filled with LN2 and used normally.
When I worked at the export lab, we would normally keep each stallion for a month or two to get enough export semen. Then the stallion could go home and we'd have enough semen for several year's use. Its VERY expensive though, $20k bills aren't uncommon!! Quarantine board plus semen freezing 3-4x/wk can run $4k+ per week.
Now can you see why this isn't practical for the average owner? You have to have a very good horse to freeze enough to justify the expense. You almost need to have the semen sold even before its exported. Man, I'd love to open a breeding facility where I could offer those services. Maybe I'd offer a huge discount to mini owners too boost demand
Even better, a bunch of mini folks could get together, use the same shipper dewar (which is very expensive) and have a broker in Europe to manage the sales and selling of the doses. A conglomerate could share the fixed prices a lot easier.
Frozen export semen is treated just like legal evidence.... there is a very clear "chain of custody" that is REQUIRED to maintain the privilege to export. One "oops" and it becomes VERY expensive domestic semen
When I worked at the export lab, we would normally keep each stallion for a month or two to get enough export semen. Then the stallion could go home and we'd have enough semen for several year's use. Its VERY expensive though, $20k bills aren't uncommon!! Quarantine board plus semen freezing 3-4x/wk can run $4k+ per week.
Now can you see why this isn't practical for the average owner? You have to have a very good horse to freeze enough to justify the expense. You almost need to have the semen sold even before its exported. Man, I'd love to open a breeding facility where I could offer those services. Maybe I'd offer a huge discount to mini owners too boost demand
Frozen export semen is treated just like legal evidence.... there is a very clear "chain of custody" that is REQUIRED to maintain the privilege to export. One "oops" and it becomes VERY expensive domestic semen
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I don't think that it is that much expensive. The problem is if more people want to A.I. then it is cheaper because there are some bloddwork to be done and one actual collection can be splitted to inseminate up to 5 mares. So if more people in Europe would join and ask for one stallion at a time it would be way cheaper. I heard that one collection fee would be something around 100 $.
I don't think you will "need" an equipment worth 100.000$ unless your stallions really needs a golden artificial vagina and you aren't able to count on your own...
You can do it with less money. Been there, done that. But you have to educate yourself.We are going to make frozen semen with our studs next year. I think this is far more reasonable then fresh semen. If one of my studs aren't avalible anymore we will still have some semen left. In my opnion it is more expensive at first and the stallion owner has to invest but in the long run it s easier (and cheaper) than keep you stallion in quarantaine just in case someone asking for fresh semen. We would have to pay here in Germany 800 € (=1000$) for quarantaine and up to three times a week 120€ (=150$) for collecting and freezing. You can get with one collection up to 15 doses of frozen semen. So after the required 4 weeks you will have enough stuff for the years to come.
We have good stallions but we are searching for some studs availible via A.I. for AMHA/AMHR/ASPC too. If you think it over even expenses something around 1500$ are less then buyng a nice stallion (say 2000$) and import him (say 2500$). That would be 4500$. You have to feed him and to keep him. And then he won't have any show successes... If this cross doesn't work for you, you have bought that stallion. I can't think of anyone in Europe having more than three broodmares so you will "need" this stallion three years and then you will have the offspring. And to resell him is for this price range in this economy not really an option. So I thing it is a Milchmädchenrechnung to say that importing semen is too expensive.
Kay, we have given it some thought and I think to breed one or two of our mares to Feature will be the only reasonable option.
Another nice possibility would be buying an embryo for import. I don't know the rules for importing one to europe but it can't be as much as importing a pony. I just don't like thinking of a pony of mine flyng across the ocean...
Nathan Luszcz
Well-Known Member
The $100,000 was for freezing equipment, not collection equipment
A well-equipped fresh/cooled collection lab can cost approximately $10,000, but for freezing, its a lot more pricy. Of course, there are cheaper ways, but they are not appropriate for the quality required of international shipping.
For example, you can freeze the easiest type of extender (every stallion "prefers" a different type of semen extender, each of which has a slightly different freezing protocol) in a styrofoam box on a floating rack you built yourself, for approximately $200. However, the variability and imprecision of the method doesn't lend itself to quality contract work. The alternative is a $40,000 cell freezer. So it adds up quickly to build a lab that is of the quality you would want to send your stallion to.
On top of that, a lot of precision instruments must be used to measure very precise amounts. A set of pipetters can cost $1000. Centrifuge, which is optional in cooled semen, is mandatory for frozen, and costs $4000 new. A motility monitor/microscope in a high end lab (like those that freeze) can cost upwards of $40,000. When I added up the costs for the lab I was going to build, it was easily over $100,000US.
If you have access to a facility that freezes semen for $100/collection, you have a STEAL. In the US, $150 is average for a collection alone, plus the freezing fee which can run upwards of $450 for a domestic ejaculate. The semen extender ALONE costs $20/15ml which is enough for 30 straws, or less than four doses. Its not uncommon for the extender to cost the lab upwards of $100 per collection for a full sized stallion, and that is included in the total fee (ie, they don't charge extra if you use more extender).
You can learn to collect and cool semen in a short one week course (I highly recommend the Colorado State University short course, when they offer it again), and you can certainly learn how to do frozen semen in a day if you are a quick learner, but the skills necessary to do a really good job take a long time to develop. Tricks to working with difficult horses take years to learn and implement. I was freezing semen in a few months after I started working on my master's, but it was a year or two before I got the skills needed to do truly quality work.
Freezing semen to the exacting standards required by breeders is a difficult task. It isn't something anyone can just "decide" to do one day. It takes a looong time to build the clientel needed to pay for the expensive equipment and learning curve. You don't practice on client animals, and its expensive to practice on your own animals!
Also, in Europe things are a LOT different. Europe is FAR, FAR, FAR more frozen-friendly than the US is. It is NORMAL for a mare owner to breed with frozen semen, here in the US, its almost unheard of. Companies like Select Breeders are pushing very hard to educate owners and make it more affordable for the average owner, but its still out of reach for most normal people and average horses.
Also, quarentine is not required in the US for shipping cooled semen, it is only required when preparing frozen semen for export to a certain group of countries which mandate it. Its not a US requirement, its the import country's requirements we must satisfy.
For example, you can freeze the easiest type of extender (every stallion "prefers" a different type of semen extender, each of which has a slightly different freezing protocol) in a styrofoam box on a floating rack you built yourself, for approximately $200. However, the variability and imprecision of the method doesn't lend itself to quality contract work. The alternative is a $40,000 cell freezer. So it adds up quickly to build a lab that is of the quality you would want to send your stallion to.
On top of that, a lot of precision instruments must be used to measure very precise amounts. A set of pipetters can cost $1000. Centrifuge, which is optional in cooled semen, is mandatory for frozen, and costs $4000 new. A motility monitor/microscope in a high end lab (like those that freeze) can cost upwards of $40,000. When I added up the costs for the lab I was going to build, it was easily over $100,000US.
If you have access to a facility that freezes semen for $100/collection, you have a STEAL. In the US, $150 is average for a collection alone, plus the freezing fee which can run upwards of $450 for a domestic ejaculate. The semen extender ALONE costs $20/15ml which is enough for 30 straws, or less than four doses. Its not uncommon for the extender to cost the lab upwards of $100 per collection for a full sized stallion, and that is included in the total fee (ie, they don't charge extra if you use more extender).
You can learn to collect and cool semen in a short one week course (I highly recommend the Colorado State University short course, when they offer it again), and you can certainly learn how to do frozen semen in a day if you are a quick learner, but the skills necessary to do a really good job take a long time to develop. Tricks to working with difficult horses take years to learn and implement. I was freezing semen in a few months after I started working on my master's, but it was a year or two before I got the skills needed to do truly quality work.
Freezing semen to the exacting standards required by breeders is a difficult task. It isn't something anyone can just "decide" to do one day. It takes a looong time to build the clientel needed to pay for the expensive equipment and learning curve. You don't practice on client animals, and its expensive to practice on your own animals!
Also, in Europe things are a LOT different. Europe is FAR, FAR, FAR more frozen-friendly than the US is. It is NORMAL for a mare owner to breed with frozen semen, here in the US, its almost unheard of. Companies like Select Breeders are pushing very hard to educate owners and make it more affordable for the average owner, but its still out of reach for most normal people and average horses.
Also, quarentine is not required in the US for shipping cooled semen, it is only required when preparing frozen semen for export to a certain group of countries which mandate it. Its not a US requirement, its the import country's requirements we must satisfy.
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Nathan Luszcz
Well-Known Member
Probably is! You can inseminate a mare reasonably easily with a speculum. But for frozen semen, they like to do deep horn inseminations. Its not THAT much better than standard AI, but it does help. You'd have to have pretty small arms to do a rectally guided deep horn insemination in a miniature.
I think a big part of the issue is the testicular size. Miniatures produce less sperm than a big horse, so things that are more palatable for a big horse who can share expenses for a semen collection among three or four mares, are harder for a mini owner who can only split the costs 1 or 2 ways. Even more applicable for frozen semen. The fee is per collection, not per dose. When you get a lot more doses for your dollar, its more economical. Smaller the sperm yield, the more expensive each dose ends up costing.
I think a big part of the issue is the testicular size. Miniatures produce less sperm than a big horse, so things that are more palatable for a big horse who can share expenses for a semen collection among three or four mares, are harder for a mini owner who can only split the costs 1 or 2 ways. Even more applicable for frozen semen. The fee is per collection, not per dose. When you get a lot more doses for your dollar, its more economical. Smaller the sperm yield, the more expensive each dose ends up costing.
Over the summer I have helped collect stallions and inseminate mares at my friends equine repro farm. It really is not a big deal. I am not saying that just anyone can do it, but it is not the huge deal that some make it out to be. I take issue with a lot of what Nathan has said, but I am not here to argue. I only know what I see and have done with my friend and the vets she works with. She has all of her own equipment and has been doing AI for more years than I have been in horses so I will always defer to her knowledge.
I have said a bunch of times I am really lucky to live just doors away from a top notch equine reproduction facility.
My friend did AI on many miniatures for a very well known (well known back in the day) farm and had a very high success rate. And these were all 34 and under minis.
If you look behind the myths you will see that it can work and it can actually save money in the long run. Especially when you consider fresh semen.
But as long as people buy into the myth that AI doesn't work on miniatures, we will stay stuck in that mindset. Hopefully as we go ahead into the future more will open up to the idea.
I know as a stallion owner, this is way safer for my stallions.
I know as a mare owner I would much rather pay for shipped semen then send my mare off for months with transport etc.
When we collected Feature there was enough in one collection to inseminate 8 mares on site or 4 mares shipped. Just for reference
I have said a bunch of times I am really lucky to live just doors away from a top notch equine reproduction facility.
My friend did AI on many miniatures for a very well known (well known back in the day) farm and had a very high success rate. And these were all 34 and under minis.
If you look behind the myths you will see that it can work and it can actually save money in the long run. Especially when you consider fresh semen.
But as long as people buy into the myth that AI doesn't work on miniatures, we will stay stuck in that mindset. Hopefully as we go ahead into the future more will open up to the idea.
I know as a stallion owner, this is way safer for my stallions.
I know as a mare owner I would much rather pay for shipped semen then send my mare off for months with transport etc.
When we collected Feature there was enough in one collection to inseminate 8 mares on site or 4 mares shipped. Just for reference
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Lizzie
Well-Known Member
I hear you Kay and agree. Really these days, there is little reason to ship mares and possible babies by side, all over the place to be bred. I have been more than a little surprised, that so very few Mini owners, offer shipped semen.
For many years, I lived next door to a very well known Arabian breeder. I was present at probably hundreds of collections and AIs in those days. I also did all my own collections and AI in my over 50 years of dog breeding. My stud dogs all lived together happily and we never had anyone getting excited over a bitch in season. However, they did show enthusiasm when I appeared with my glass cup! I also AI'd for many well known show kennels and I think I only had two misses in many years.
Lizzie
For many years, I lived next door to a very well known Arabian breeder. I was present at probably hundreds of collections and AIs in those days. I also did all my own collections and AI in my over 50 years of dog breeding. My stud dogs all lived together happily and we never had anyone getting excited over a bitch in season. However, they did show enthusiasm when I appeared with my glass cup! I also AI'd for many well known show kennels and I think I only had two misses in many years.
Lizzie
