Asking Prices of AMHR Over Division Horses

[horsedude]

I am wondering what everyone's opinion on this forum is about the value of top quality AMHR Over Division Horses?

I am trying to decrease the size of my breeding program because of an unexpected move. 75% of my breeding program consists of AMHR Over Division horses. I know that many people find it hard to believe that some people intentionally breed for Over Division horses. It does not happen by accident here, I do it on purpose!

I have never been afraid to pay top dollar for an Over Division horse. I have spent $2,000.00 to $5,000.00 and more on top quality Over Division horses. These horses have impecible bloodlines, sons and daughters of some of the greatest horses in the industry. They have the confirmation, bloodlines, are proven producers, professional photos for advertising and promotion, and are bred to top notch stallions.

When I advertise these horses for sale, I get inquiries. I know many of the inquiries come from people that frequent the sales board and forum here. However, when I tell people the prices that I am asking for these horses, I often never hear back from them or if I do hear back from them I have had some very negative or rude remarks made about how out of line my prices are for a AMHR B division horse. On the flip side, I have had some very positive feedback from some highly respected breeders and show people who feel my prices are very fair and competitive for the quality animals I am offering for sale.

I guess I have always thought that every year the Over Division horses were becoming hotter and hotter. When you go to AMHR Nationals, these classes are HUGE, the competition is awesome. Every year it gets better and better. But it seems when it comes time to sell these animals, people still have the mentality that an AMHR horse is worth far less than an AMHA or double registered horse, and that a Over Division horse is worth even less, especially if its a colt. That if you ask more than $800.00 or $1,000.00 for a top quality AMHR Over Division bred mare you are out of your mind. I have seen AMHR horses sell for great money. I have sold AMHR horses for great money. It just blows my mind when a breeder will pay $5,000.00, $10,000.00, $15,000.00, $20,000.00 or more for a horse that is AMHA registered at 34 inches. But you take a horse of the same quality, and caliber as that AMHA, that is 35 inches and AMHR Over Division registered, and suddenly it is viewed as being far less valuable. I guess I don't understand the mentality, and probably never will.

But, back to my original question. I want to know what every feels a "fair" price is to pay for:

1) An top notch AMHR Over Division Mare, proven producer, bred to a top stallion

2) A top notch AMHR Over Division filly, produced by these top mares and stallions

3) A top notch AMHR Over Division Stallion or Show/Stallion Prospect

4) A top notch AMHR Over Division colt, produced by these top mares and stallions.

I guess I want to know if I have been "raped" in your opinion all these years by paying these top prices for AMHR Over Division horses, or if you feel quality still demands a great price, irregardelss of size or registry? I guess I have always felt that quality will sell, but I am starting to wonder. I know it is a difficult time of the year to sell horses, but this is a question I have wanted to ask for a long time. So I would sure like everyones opinions here.

Please do not get off topic like happens on so many other threads. I am not harping or preaching about anything, or complaining. I am not trying to offend anyone. I simply want everyones opinion on what they feel fair prices are and your reasoning behind it. Thank you for your time!

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

well i think there is no such thing as a "fair" price I know plenty that buy a horse for 1000 bucks and sell it for 7000 bucks.. is that fair? well it it is in the fact that the buyer knows the horses have or have not been shown alot or at the national level or not. Fair to one is not fair to another but that said I have a B program and have paid good money for my horses and find when looking for horses that I like.. they are asking 3-6,000 dollars for the type of horses I like

 

[MiniHunterHorseFan]

Perhaps one reason Under division horses sell for more is that they can be AMHA registered too. So you can show them in both types of shows. With Over horses they can only be shown in one registry, AMHR.

 

[Erica]

I buy and sell both; AMHA/AMHR, AMHR, AMHR/ASPC.........and I will pay good for a horse in any of those categories, if it's a quality horse I want. I've paid just as much for some of my AMHR/ASPC "overs" than my AMHA (which I then put into AMHR).

Same for selling, to me a great horse is a great horse. I actually know of two people that were looking to ad a over mare to their show string, ready to buy and pay for one.......it was just finding one they liked, several were not up to their standards and yes those are the ones that will be advertised and try to sell at the $700 mark.

 

[nootka]

Around here, the average Over horse will bring half (if that) of what an Under/AMHA horse will bring.

There are people that are very strenuously denying their horses' true heights and making them Under for a reason, even National Champions, so I know there is something to the feeling that AMHA and Under horses must be just worth more. If not, why would they go to such great lengths to deny a truth?

I cannot tell you what each horse you need to know about would bring, because I have hardly bred or sold those things, and I myself am not interested in Over horses.

I do admire many of them, and have heard for many years that they are becoming more popular, but I have yet to see the effects other than a few elite examples. I think there is an even wider gap between top show quality and the "average" type than there is in the Under horses, as in you will pay a lot less for the average Over than you would the average Under, but then again you may end up paying even more for a really well-bred Over. I hope that makes sense.

Liz

 

[txminipinto]

A quality horse is a quality horse, and most times you'll pay for that quality. That said, I personally would never own a "A" size horse. I prefer the taller versions, so you won't see me paying big bucks for one because they don't fit MY program. I don't think they are worth more because they are AMHA/AMHR either. If you want something worth more because it's double registered, then you need to be looking at the ASPC/AMHR horses (because that's what's winning in AMHR). But that's all JMHO.

The A horses going for the super big bucks are from farms that have worked hard to get the most perfect horse in the smallest size, so they are to commended (and paid) for their success. But there are very few of those who are of that quality (which is why their price is so high!).

I think the average price for a quality Over division horse, regardless of any factors is about $1500 - $2000. The price goes up from there in regards to breeding, show record, etc. Most horses in this area (TX) sell for that price. Of course, you can pay a lot more for some of the more popular bloodlines and proven horses. But most, from what I've been watching, are priced there.

The trend here in TX is to go tall. The A classes are much smaller than the Bs and the ASPC divisons are just booming.

You just have to find the right buyers who are looking for B size horses. They will pay the top dollar for them, just as the A people will pay top dollar for an A, and the shetland people will pay top dollar for a shetland.

 

[minih]

Our recent purchases have been the taller B size or those that are going to be close. We have a small stallion for sale and have several small mares that will be sold. We show AMHR only, so not a problem there. I will pay a good price for an over mare.

My problem with buying any horse via internet, is pictures. Please when someone asks for pictures of a horse for sale, please get good pics. One front, one back, and one set up from the side. Please do not take the side pic at an angle hiding how the neck ties in or the how the tail set is, when I see that I automatically think they are trying to hide something by positioning the horse that way. I do not mind action shots as long as you can the whole side of the horse. Sorry, small pet peeve of mine.

 

[ctinsley]

I think the prices of the "B" horses will keep climbing. We have purchased several ASPC/AMHR horses that last two years, and are willing to pay quality prices for quality horses. We enjoy the B's so much we are selling the rest of our AMHA/AMHR horses and going strictly ASPC/AMHR. All except one horse we took to the Nationals was ASPC/AMHR and the one exception was an AMHR B Yearling. Classes for all the "B" were large and the quality was excellent.

 

[Minimor]

From what I have seen, as a rule the Over division horses that sell for the best prices are the ones that are also registered ASPC. You could have two horses of equal quality, one with ASPC papers and one without, and the one with the Shetland papers would sell faster, for more money. Not always, but as a rule.

A good over division colt should IMO be worth at least $1500 and fillies at least $2500. If you're lucky you'll find good quality horses for less than that, but it's not something I'd count on. Of course the seller's name/reputation and the horse's exact pedigree and show record and even color will have an effect on price too. I know there are over division colts selling for $3000 and up, and one very tall Shetland/Mini registered horse sold for $20000.00 at Nationals...and on the other side of the scale I know of over division mares--nice mares--priced from $750 to $2500 that don't get any interest at all.

 

[Buckskin gal]

From my observations I think the value of a top quality AMHR horse varies a lot. Much can depend on the area you are in, the demand at the time, and who you are. The person who is interested in AMHR only horses might pay just as much as for a AMHA only horse...all depends on what the preference is for the buyer. I do think that AMHA/AMHR horses have brought more mony, on the average, than strictly AMHR only. I think the reason for this is because a lot of AMHA horses are bought by overseas breeders which seem to prefer the A size. Don't see the oversize being sold much if at all to overseas buyers...well anyway they aren't suppose to be oversize! You just have to find the buyer that wants your horse for the price you want to sell it for. Mary

 

[Kawgirl]

"From what I have seen, as a rule the Over division horses that sell for the best prices are the ones that are also registered ASPC. You could have two horses of equal quality, one with ASPC papers and one without, and the one with the Shetland papers would sell faster, for more money. Not always, but as a rule"

And yet, there are those that try to deny that minis were bred down from Shetlands!

 

[Minimor]

Don't see the oversize being sold much if at all to overseas buyers...well anyway they aren't suppose to be oversize!

Mary, we are talking about Over division horses here, meaning over 34" and up to 38". Are you referring to these horses as "oversize" and saying that there shouldn't be any horses that are between 34" and 38" ? Or are you meaning "oversize" as in over 38" ?
If you're saying that there shouldn't be any 34-38" horses, that's quite offensive, since AMHR allows registration for this size, making them not "oversize" at all!

It's true that most of the overseas buyers prefer AMHA horses that are well under the 34". Not all do, however...the tall over division horse that I referred to in my earlier post, the one that sold for $20,000.00, was sold to an overseas buyer.

 

[Buckskin gal]

To clear that up for you; I was referring to the 34" and under minis being bought more by the overseas person. I probably shoule have said "over" not "oversize" meaning the B's as in AMHR. I definitely was not offending anyone and had been asked for my opinion and gave my observations.....no arguement or anything else intended only answering to the poster and that is all. Mary

Don't see the oversize being sold much if at all to overseas buyers...well anyway they aren't suppose to be oversize!

Mary, we are talking about Over division horses here, meaning over 34" and up to 38". Are you referring to these horses as "oversize" and saying that there shouldn't be any horses that are between 34" and 38" ? Or are you meaning "oversize" as in over 38" ?
If you're saying that there shouldn't be any 34-38" horses, that's quite offensive, since AMHR allows registration for this size, making them not "oversize" at all!

It's true that most of the overseas buyers prefer AMHA horses that are well under the 34". Not all do, however...the tall over division horse that I referred to in my earlier post, the one that sold for $20,000.00, was sold to an overseas buyer.

 

[RockRiverTiff]

I hesitate to even pitch in, as we openly breed for the smaller minis. Nevertheless, we have had a handful of Over horses here, and had no more trouble selling them than the little ones. Being in Illinois--in the middle of "AMHR Country" if you will--has helped, but two of the mares sold were transported west anyway. The prices we got were fair, especially in this market, with a well-bred show quality (but unshown) filly bringing $2500 and a plain but correct and proven bred mare bringing $1800. Anything higher than that, and I believe you'd better put your money where your mouth is and have a show record on the horse.

It's hard to say what you should be getting for your horses though. There are a lot out there, and to me your description of "top notch" is subjective without more information. When you say the mares are proven, do you simply mean they've had foals, or that they've had winning foals? Same with the stallions. If they haven't been shown, then you'd better have pictures that clearly demonstrate their potential. I understand if you don't want to be subjected to a critique, but I think it would be helpful if you could post an example for us.

 

[Jill]

Right now, my concentration is amhr/amha double registered horses for breeding, but I do own some B's and don't "value" them any less than the A size horses. I would love one day to have an AMHR/ASPC mare (or breed one of my mares to that kind of a stallion), and for the right horse, I'd pay as much B size as A size, if that's the horse I wanted. On paper and in person, I feel one of my most outstanding horses is actually a B division gelding I own.

 

[Jacquee']

My opinion is that good over horses are worth more - at least they are to me but one reason is I drive, and my under 34" horses seem a little "under-powered" when it comes to hitting the trail, climbing up mountains etc. Maybe it's just the individual horses...... but my very best, most trustworthy driving horses, the ones that can go all day, pull you and maybe some gear, be cheerful and happy even when pulling up steep long slopes, have all been over horses.

But I too have had people think the overs are somehow not worth as much.

To me, a fair price for a good over stallion will *start* from $1,200 to $3,000 and then go up from there..... and I have paid this before. Mares and fillies will run a little bit more. To me, it does not matter what others think, I am only interested in that particular horse and what it is capable of. So I guess I agree with the person that said that quality will always sell.

But in this market it can sure be tough to find the right buyer.

 

[ontherisefarm]

:saludando: :saludando: :saludando:

I remember when I first got into the minis in 94 that B size horses weren't well thought of and the pricing was kinda low. Now thier prices have gotten considerably better and thier popularity is way up from what it used to be but when it is all said and done a horse is only worth what someone else is willing to pay for it. I have seen some really nice minis ( A and B ) sell for some good prices and some I didnt think were worth it.Also some that I thought were worth much more sell for really low prices... So many things factor into pricing... and especially right now the cost of feed is high so alot of people arent willing to pay top notch prices if even though they are worth it... There are quite a few horses I have seen even B ones that I would love to have but seeing as how I have to sell to buy and nothing is moving where I live then no buying is coming from me.. Anyway, like everyone else here its just my opinion. Quality will sell faster than anything else regardless of size but it still all goes on what someone is willing to pay.....

:saludando: :saludando: :saludando:

 

[Tammie-C_Spots]

Years ago here in the North east a taller horse just didn't bring as much as smaller but over the years (14 to be exact) people seem to have come to value the quality of the horse and other things more than just "height". It helped that we had a very popular AMHA club and once we had a AMHR club start up interest definately picked up from there. I am selling/leasing most of my small herd and a few are on the line (34") or taller and I'm getting the same interest in the smaller ones as I am the taller. I like all sizes by the way. I love the teeny ones (I had a 26" stallion and still own a 29" mare and stallion out on lease) and I have a tall B that is has also an excellent example of a horse in miniature- just at a taller size.

I think what it comes down to these days is just finding buyers and sellers that are like minded in what they consider quality and agreeing on the value of a horse.

Tammie

 

[MinisOutWest]

I have a 36" AMHR/ Ptha gelding for sale. Just in 2007, he has won PtHA World Champion Open Driving and Amateur Driving and Reserve World in Hunter with 9 Top 10s then at AMHR Nationals he took National Champion in Hunter and 2- 4ths in Driving. I am only asking $5500 for him and I see that to be very reasonable for a horse like him. He does ALL the all around classes, so if someone can find a 110% bombproof all around horse that can win at the World or National level today, they will have to pay a little money, but I feel it will not cost an arm and a leg to do so, like $65,000 for a quarter horse, who can just place locally for you.

 

[JWC sr.]

Someone upstairs in the posts made the comment that quality is quality, Whcih I beleive to be a very true statement. As far as pricing is concerned it is impossible for me to say what I think of a particular horse is worth without seeing it. I have seen some butt ugly driving horses that brought a lot of money to a driving person, I have seen some beautiful halter horses that would not be a 10.00 bill to a driving person and vice versa.

A reasonable price for any given horse it is worth what a seller will sell it for and what a buyer will pay for it.

A perfect example is Our stallion WF Patton's See me Shine, His full brother WF Spetacular Bey who is a carbon copy of Shine except that Shine is about 2 1/2" shorter, sold for 52,000.00 at the world sale. I am not sure I would take that for Shine with the quality babies he puts on the ground for us. But it was a good enough price for Ray/Martha to sell Spectacular Bey and for the buyers from France.

At the last R National show we were considering buying a B stallion to go with a few of our girls that are leftover from when our herd was an R only herd. There is only two of them on the place that are not R and A registered, but these two are just too big for the A registry. The quality stud we were looking for was running 7,500.00 - 25,000 when we inquired about a few. A good friend of ours though stole a colt I would have loved to have had for only 1,500.00.

So my best advice is honestly look at any horse you are considering selling, place a price that you are comfortable with, do some advertizing, display your horses on the web and at shows where prospective buyer will be and see what happens. Good horses always have and always will sell people know you have them for sale.

Good Luck, :saludando: