Appy breeders color question

[runaway ranch]

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Would those of you that have done breeding with appy's give me your opinion?? I would like to know if Heart looks like he might be a few spotted appy?? What do you think??

 

[HGFarm]

The pic is quite small so hard to tell..... is the skin under his white blanket pink? With no spots in it at all? Also, are BOTH parents Appaloosa?

 

[crponies]

I'm not an appy breeder just a student of equine color genetics. He looks like a snowcap not a fewspot. Is that his dam in the background? Are both sire and dam appaloosa?

 

[runaway ranch]

His Dam is a daughter of Chianti II a son of Chianti and his sire is a black leopard appy. Not sure how to post a larger picture, but you can see one on my site under foals. Appreciate your help!! Oh and he has blue/grey eyes. I checked and from what I could see (his coat is so thick) the skin is pink. What does that mean?

 

[runaway ranch]

I found a horse on the appy site called few spot ribs (?) that looks just like him. Is this a common pattern?

 

[Lost Spoke Ranch]

Hello Runaway:

Your colt certainly appears as if he could be a few spot or snow cap pattern to me with the amount of white he has. The way I understand it the snowcap pattern is a blanket pattern and a few spot is a leopard pattern. Though you do not want a lot of spotting and less is better in this regard on a few spot or snowcap it's not uncommon to find a couple of spots sprinkled through out and on the face. There is a few spot colt a friend of mine just added to my avatar that has similar amount of white and does have a few spots on his face making him a few spot leopard. As several have mentioned both sire and dam need to be appaloosa for your fellow to be either snowcap or few spot. Just my two cents for what it's worth. Regardless, your colt is lovely no matter what his color turns out to be.

Dawn :saludando:

 

[Lost Spoke Ranch]

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[Lost Spoke Ranch]

So sorry about the triple post...not sure how that happened.

 

[runaway ranch]

Thank you for the info. I am eager to learn as much about these little guys as I can.

 

[appypintolady]

He sure looks like a snowcap to near fewspot to me. I have a stallion (Falabella) that is marked very similarly. I asked Sheila Archer (The Appaloosa Project moderator) about my stallions color and she said she thought he was a near few spot because of the amount of white,75% to 80%.

 

[MiniHoofBeats]

appypintolady - yes same here, I had asked Shiela about my new colt because he could be a few spot or a large snowcap (now know he's a few spot lol) and she determined he had 80% white coverage making him a near few spot (which I believe also applies to Lost Spokes few spot).

What would really help in this case is if you could shave off the baby fuzz. Baby fuzz hides so much color it's insane! My colt came out palomino with a white rump, and after being shaved almost his entire body was white leaving just the palomino color on his head, neck, and armpits. Do you have any way of being able to shave the foal or is it still chilly in your area?

My guess is the colt is a few spot, most snowcap foals are born with a pretty distinct visual snowcap wheras few spots have the colored hair, but at the root of the hair there is white, meaning under that colored hair is white hair. A few examples of mine:

snowcap foal:

few spot foal:

few spot after being shaved - note how much more white as compared to the baby fuzz!

Also Lost Spoke is right that to be a true snowcap/few spot there should be hardly any spots, no more than if you took a small handfull and tossed them on the horse. Hope this helps!

Also you didn't mention if the dam is an appaloosa, you said she is Daughter of Chiantii, what color/pattern is her dam? Is she registered appaloosa?

 

[HGFarm]

http://www.dailypost.com/~santee/appcoatpatterns.htm

Here is a link to an article (with pics) that was written by Gene Carr and Robert Lapp. Gene is one of the premier 'gurus' on appy color and genetics and has studied much over the years. I cant think of anyone else that knows more than Gene.

It will give you information on what is a TRUE few spot and snowcap (as there are false snowcaps) and will show pics to help with the point. Your colt appears to fall within the few spot category.

Dawn is correct in saying that the snowcap pattern is a blanket pattern, and most foals produced will have 'hip patterns' and the few spot is a leopard pattern and can produce just about anything!!

Hope this helps!

 

[MiniHoofBeats]

Good call on posting that article =) GREAT article!

 

[qtrrae]

Here is another picture of Lisa's colt!

 

[MiniHoofBeats]

That's definitely a better photo lol.

Judging by how he technically has color, but you can see along his ribcage, up his neck and extending down his legs, how his undercoat is white...definite few spot!

 

[rabbitsfizz]

Sorry I think you are all confusing Snowcap with Fewspot. Fewspots are born white all over or solid and fade within a day or two (I have actually seen that happen with my own eyes and I am still at a loss to explain it but the colt was a proven by breeding Fewspot!!)

Snowcaps look like Blanket spots without spots.

I think the colt in question is a false Snowcap as his dam, who ever's granddaughter she is, does not appear to have spots or any characteristics.

There are far, far fewer real Fewspots and Snowcaps then you would believe- the chances of him being Snowcap/Fewspot are slim.

Mini Hoofs I STILL think your colt is Snowcap/false Snowcap- I have absolutely NO idea how a colt could be "near" Fewspot- they either are or they aren't!!

Personally I shall be very, very glad when all this is testable so people can stop making up the rules as they go along.

Fewspots are (as near as flip) Homozygous, as are Snowcaps.

If they followed the rules there would be a lot around, as Leopard X Leopard ought to = 25% Fewspot/Snowcap.

I am pretty sure there is a semi-lethal at work and, as far as I am aware, no-one has even considered this yet!!

 

[HGFarm]

I have been breeding Appaloosas exclusively for 33 years, and this colt, in looking at the new pic, is a few spot. They are not born solid white and fade in a day or two. They have darker 'pig hairs' of whatever their base color is (black, bay, sorrel, etc....) I have had snowcaps and few spots born here (large and Minis) over the years. Snowcaps have a distinctive blanket.

If you check out the pic, you can see the white undercoat under the 'pig hairs' and see the white behind his ears, on his nose, etc...... he also has the required leopard breeding in his background. If his sire was a leopard, and his dam has characteristics, YES, he can be, and is a black few spot. His dam's sire is Appaloosa.

I will disagree with you rabbitz on this one- few spots are not born solid. A 'grayed out' Appaloosa that turns white may be born solid, or even loud colored, but will fade to white. A few spot is never completely white and dont fade into anything. The whiter undercoat is there from birth. To my knowledge there has been NO known record ever, of lethal white in an Appaloosa.

Gene's article has great pictures and explanations regarding what a few spot is, and is not.

CCMF's farm has a picture of her few spot stallion on her site- he is not solid white, nor is he just a snowcap either. Here is another site with a good example of pics of a few spot. He still has a 'few spots' on his face and neck area, some colored hairs through his mane and tail and around his fetlocks, knees, elbows, chest, etc.. http://www.pshorse.com/jazz.shtml

 

[MiniHoofBeats]

Thank you Laurie for that thorough explaination and back up. Few spots are NOT born white, they have hair that is pigmented their base color at the end of the hair but the half of the hair closes to the body is white, so when you clip the foal you can clip off all those half pigmented hairs and see just how much white is really under the foal hair...that is why I suggested clipping the foal, and also why I posted photo's as an example. Snowcaps are born with very distinct edged blankets that may roan out later in life to extend with shady edges, but as a foal...no.

There IS such a thing as a near few spot, just as there IS such a thing as a near leopard. I posted these once before but i'll post them again, charts studied and drawn by Dr. Shiela Archer to characterize the % of white on an appaloosa and what they would be called:

http://f4.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/wK5bRKJPP_IVM...rnGuide.pg1.JPG

http://f5.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/wK5bRDlmGcYVM...rnGuide.pg2.JPG

http://f6.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/wK5bRKN0LWwVM...rnGuide.pg3.JPG

If you click on the first link it shows the difference between a few spot, and a near few spot...also leopard and near leopard. Second link is blankets, third link is characteristic. GREAT drawings, I refer back to these a lot!

Also do you know what makes a "false" snowcap or few spot? A "false" is born out of only 1 appy parent. That's it. If there are two appy parents it's a true few spot or snowcap. This mare is obviously appy bred so she should at least be a characteristic...just wanted to help clarify this. This colt definitely has the white undercoat extending up his neck, down his legs, over his ribs up to his chest...definite few spot!

I say Congratulations!!! Few spots are AWESOME!

You know, it would be helpful to see a photo of mom showing her hooves and nose, and tell us if she has any mottling on her genitals. Also a photo of dad...these things we need to know about before jumping to conclusions all over the place lol.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

I'm sorry but I may well be describing it badly.

Fewspots are not born half and half- it could be that the lack of pigmentation is due to something like that which Minihoofs is describing- I have not gone into it that much.

The only two proven by breeding to be Fewspots I have ever (in forty eight years) known, one was born solid black, the other solid Chestnut.

Both faded to white within days- this was the only reason we know there was something "special" about these colts.

Both were subsequently bred extensively and never threw a non-spotted foal, from solid mares.

I have seen a couple of other colts that certainly look as if they are fewspot, but have not yet been proven by breeding- when it is unproven it is quite rash to state an animal is this or that, after all, not having any spots proves nothing.

None of this explains why Fewspots are not as common as Cremellos.

None of this explains why these so called "fewspots" do not breed exclusively Appies- which they mainly do not because most of them are not Fewspots.

A half and half coloured colt is not Fewspot, it is near leopard or possible Snowcap, depending on the placements of the markings.

I really do despair sometimes.

You will obviously continue to believe exactly what it suits you to believe.

Carry on, I guess it helps keep the prices up, even if there are a few disappointed people around because of the "hype"

:

 

[Lost Spoke Ranch]

Well, after seeing the new picture of Lisa's colt I no longer feel he's a snowcap and think he's few spot. Still waiting to hear if both parents are appaloosa and if he may have any spots on his face. I haven't heard of lethal white in appaloosas like there is in pinto, by the way.

Dawn :saludando: