Another bit observation...

[Marsha Cassada]

I started the project horse I'm boarding with the myler comfort snaffle. He was accepting it fine and it seemed to suit him well. The trainer who is taking him over prefers the broken snaffle; she said it is what John Lyons recommends.

I am out of his training loop now, so it is not my decision anymore.

It never ceases to amaze me, the variety and preference of the different bits.

 

[Minimor]

Preference for bits should IMO always be the preference of the horse, not the preference of the trainer or the preference if some clinician that is speaking generally. John Lyons may recommend a particular bit but if the horse doesn't accept thr at bit well then it is not the right choice for that horse. Hopefully this particular horse will work well in the jointed snaffle and if not that the trainer will recognize that and switch to something that does suit the horse.

 

[Reignmaker Miniatures]

I don't know much about John Lyons but it seems to me that any trainer worth the name will recommend a bit "in general" but realize that being flexible is important and if a horse prefers something other than what is generally the best choice then whatever the horse goes best in becomes the best choice. I suspect this person is taking a statement based on a common snaffle bit being all a horse needs (instead of for instance a curb or....) and making it a law. If JL says use it there is no other alternative. Hopefully they'll figure out what works (or the horse won't mind the snaffle) rather than blame the horse if it doesn't go well in their bit of choice.

 

[Marsha Cassada]

I went back to the Myler site and read more about the low port snaffle. It is recommended for starting a horse, which is what I first purchased it for a few horses ago.

When I had tried it on my experienced gelding he did not like it. He prefers his french link and goes well in it so that is what I'm sticking with.

Rereading about the bits motivated and reminded me to work with it as a tool more; sometimes I get so used to Dapper Dan that I take advantage of his experience and don't use the bit properly for him.

I started Dapper Dan in the broken snaffle, which came with my first headstall. When I changed him to the french link it was immediately apparent that he was happy with it. By then he had passed the chomping stage!

 

[Cajonat]

I must admit, I sure like the lozenge/french link style bit. Of all the horses I've had, they have all preferred it.

I was really happy to find a lozenge style driving bit for my mini. I didn't like the way he was ground driving with the mullen and sure enough, when we switched to the lozenge style he liked it too- softer, quieter with his head.

But as all the others have said - you really have to read the horse...he/she will let you know.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

The right bit for the horse is ALWAYS the bit the horse is happiest in, NOT the bit some human thinks it ought to be happiest in!

I am no fan of NH and this is the main reason why. I do not care whether JL said exactly this, or if it was misinterpreted as having been said this way- if the trainer was worth his salt s/he would make absolutely certa8in that their comments could, in no way whatsoever, be misinterpreted. After all, there are a lot of idiots out there and sooner or later something you say is going to be read by them

 

[studiowvw]

I don't really understand why the regular snaffle is commonly used as a driving bit.

When you pull on both reins, you get both the nut-cracker effect, and the centre part poking the top of the mouth - also it seems that in traditional driving there is a lot of "pull" on the reins. How do the horses tolerate it?

So why the regular snaffle - I understood in riding it is used for one rein at a time. Driving is almost never one rein at a time.

I can understand the French link being used, as there is much less of a nutcracker effect, and no sharp poke when both reins are pulled.

Lacey currently goes in a straight (slight curve actually) bit, as Lori who trained her said that was the only bit she liked.

Eventually I would like to try her in a French link bit, but for now, not going to mess with her mouth as she seems to be happy.

 

[Minimor]

So why the regular snaffle - I understood in riding it is used for one rein at a time. Driving is almost never one rein at a time.

.

Of course it is--I do dressage, and I drive exactly the same way I ride...and I rarely use both reins at once, not even when asking for a halt. I seldom use a lot of pull on the reins either--i push the horse forward onto the bit--the more forward they are the lighter they are--I don't pull to turn or stop, I just "think" turn or stop, squeeze the rein a little bit and the horse does it.
I have horses that drive beautifully in a jointed snaffle, and I have horses that do better in something else.

Believe me, there are many who ride with a snaffle and are very heavy handed on that snaffle--they rarely use one rein at a time!

 

[studiowvw]

Minimor, thank you for this excellent description. I hope to always do the same as I get better - Lacey is very light in the reins usually and responds to squeezes.

I am trying to develop better reinsmanship and I'll keep your image in my mind as an example.

I'll bet most people who drive don't have the light feel that you are describing, along with many people who ride with heavy hands in a jointed snaffle.

In riding I've hated the feel of the bit in their mouth so much that I rode the last 10 years in a rope halter (they can respond to a very light feel there too.) However, it isn't safe to drive in a rope halter, so I need to develop an understanding of using the bit and reins.

There are some things I don't understand:

1. With the weight of lines (more full size driving than minis) how can there not be the nutcracker effect on a snaffle just from the weight?

2. In a driving lesson I took a couple of years ago, the instructor wanted me to "take more contact" more, more, more, etc. When she finally said "There, he's going much better for you now," I was pulling with both hands to 15 or 20 pounds or more. This certainly was not using one rein at a time. It was pulling both reins with heavy hands. He may have been hauled into a posture that looked right, but it sure was not "contact", it was abuse.

3. In dressage lessons in the past, the instructors were always telling me "more contact, more contact". But not telling me what you are saying, above. (Or anything else other than that there was too much slack in the lines.) ***I still do not understand how one can pay $45 or $60 or more for a lesson and not get useful information - the common way of teaching that I've experienced (until I gave up!!!) is to have you go around and around in circles until it "happens" automatically. I only learn from detailed information!

How does one develop "more contact" with one rein at a time? (Without pulling.)

Do you take a feel on one rein, then the other, I suppose (half halt type). If the horse accepts this contact or feel, then you have a live contact with the mouth. How does one take "more contact, more contact" if the horse does not give to it? More feel on each rein until you get a give?

What do you do when you get the give? Release? How long is your release?

4. How do you push the horse forward onto the bit? Verbal encouragement, clucking, smooching? The whip?

So you hold your hands steady and the horse takes more contact itself? Or if not accepting the contact, puts more pressure on the bit itself? Then you hold steady until you get a give? Then you release to reward and teach?

If you could give me some clues how you break down what you said above, I would appreciate it! If not, that's ok, I like the image you described.

Thanks again

 

[studiowvw]

I am thinking about how I would get collection in my QH mare when riding with the rope halter, and what I would do is softly ask her to collect with my hands while lifting my seat up a bit.

In a halter you don't pull with both reins either - you pick up a feel and when you get a feel back, you have a contact.

So I guess I could transfer that same feel to the bit.

 

[Marsha Cassada]

My take on this response to the bit is the horse learning to give to pressure. For me, this starts while going for walks or ground work. For instance, if he puts his head down to nibble I keep steady pressure on the lead. He raises his head, release/reward. It is amazing how effective release/reward is. Don't jerk or yank. I think many people do not realize even how a halter can work.

While ground driving we practice weaving subtlely down the road--pressure on a rein till I feel him give, then instant release. Back and forth while walking. I can actually feel the snaffle working (and if I can feel it for sure my horse does.) The same with whoa.

After he is used to giving to pressure, then comes the time to make the contact stronger with the forward impetus command. As soon as he brings his head in to release the pressure, the driver instantly releases the reins. The horse figures it out.

Now, I cannot do this to perfection because I have the attention span of yearling filly. I know WHAT to do, but I am temperamentally incapable of taking it to perfection. So my horse and I enjoy each other but it is highly unlikely you will ever see us competing at a dressage competition! But learning about pressure and how to use the bit has made us both happier.

As to trainers, I think they need to begin with us ground driving. If we cannot get good results on the ground, we probably aren't going to get good results in the cart. The last formal training session I had, the trainer told me to unhitch. It was humbling but necessary. And the fee was $100 per lesson. For $45 I might go more often...

 

[targetsmom]

Funny, but I never rode my dressage horse in a regular jointed snaffle either - usually some variation of a French link. But I would also ride him (especially on cold days) with a halter and two reins, and my dressage saddle. When riding while a lesson was going on in the same ring (boarding barn) I don't think anyone, including the instructor, noticed that Target was not "on the bit" but only being ridden in a halter.

I start all mine in a mullen mouth snaffle and then go from there, but never the jointed snaffle that came with the bridle. I love (because my horses do) real Myler bits. Lots of them seem to stay in the mullen mouth. We also have all the 4-Hers learning to drive by ground driving, first practicing with reins with me as the horse!

 

[Cajonat]

Well, took me years to figure out a kind, yet communicative contact in dressage...lessons, practice, lessons, practice...took a long time. Still can't say I was there when I had to give up dressage, but it was coming. Now how to transfer this over to driving...that is my mission. Well, once the back is fixed!

Take home message from all the years of dressage...ride the horse up to a kind, soft, supple contact. Don't kick, force or crazily ride the horse up into a unforgiving hand. Sometimes called in the dressage world "crank and spank". You should have a living contact with the mouth...soft hands. It's a difficult thing to explain...you need to set the framework for the contact, you can't let them barge through the contact. But the framework, wall (the end energy you have created from your hands to the bit) whatever you want to call if should be kind and forgiving...but purposeful. If you were walking holding a child's hand and they were struggling to go somewhere that you didn't want to go...would you give them a yank? No, you might talk to them, gently pull their hand...might be in a few soft tugs, might be a gentle pull, might just flutter your fingers a bit in the child's hand...given the situation, your relationship with the child, knowing the child's personality...you may make different choices on how you will solve the situation. If the child pulled herself into the path of a car...you betcha there would be a yank...but try to never get into that situation. Take home message, gentle yet purposeful contact.

One little exercise that stuck with me over the years. My trainer told me to take my bridle home, take off my socks and stick the bit in between your toes then take the reins in your hand. See how that feels. Worked for me!

A bit of early morning rambling...but hope that makes sense...contact is REALLY difficult to explain.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

I do not understand the theory behind putting pressure on the bit by pulling- that is just not the way to do it, not IMO anyway and not in the way I was taught back in the days of the dinosaurs! You hold the reins gently but firmly and you send the horse into the bit, with your legs or with sympathetic use of the whip or your voice, bringing the horse up into the bridle. Pulling on the reins has no place, except, possibly, with a runaway!

 

[Minimor]

Thank you Jane, that is it exactly! It is so much more that just using the reins and so the bitno pulling, no making the horse give to pressure (I NEVER practice bending a horses head around to touch his nose to his side, as so many people dothat, to me, is a useless exercise) I have a feel of the mouth --as one is supposed to when you use any sort of a snaffle bit-but the reins are a directive only, the real key is in using your legs (riding) or whip (driving) to push the horse up onto the bit. I squeeze the rein a little when I want a turn, or a halt, or I may set my hand briefly if the horse gets strong (half halt) but I do not pull.

Have a horse that is going hollow, counter bending on the circle? I do not try to make him give to pressure by pulling his head to the inside, I ask him to take contact on the outside reinbecause THAT is what he is avoiding!and when he takes contact on that outside rein he will straighten and then regain his correct bend.

Pulling on the reins or even holding them too tightly and insisting that the horse give to the pressureis how so many horses end up going so badly, way behind the bit, with no impulsion. I do not believe in see sawing the reins--as so many do--to make the horse tuck his nose.

Studio ww -- I have sent you a PM-- I only now saw the last part of your post. I will answer your questions a little later!

 

[studiowvw]

Thanks for the descriptions and ideas. I'll see how we do this weekend both in line driving and actual driving.

I like the bit and toes exercise

This is how I developed a feel on the line or halter:

I would jog on my mini trampoline, while holding reins in my hands. The reins were tied to the back of a chair which I would pull up onto its back legs (i.e. back legs closest to mini-tramp).

Then while jogging I would try to keep the chair balanced on its back legs without pulling it over backwards.

I could never get the chair to stay totally still, but it sure is an exercise in keeping your arms/hands/fingers independent of your body movements. And you sure can't pull!

Anyways, I intimidated myself by stressing over the bit and contact today

so didn't hitch her up. I took her for a conditioning walk on line and we enjoyed each other's company and did a mile walk, which we both could use.

I'll sleep on the concepts and hopefully come out better in the morning.

Thanks again.

 

[Cajonat]

Sounds like you have a plan!

 

[Cajonat]

...and was going to add, that's why you see so many people not a fan of the side or check rein. You would be sending them up to a really unforgiving contact. Yes, they may learn to back off from the discomfort and place their head where it is "supposed to be" but you really do not see a relaxed horse, just a horse that has learned a way to position his head to avoid discomfort.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

Well, as soon as you remove the check the horse will put it's head back down where it wants it, same as with a running martingale that is too tight! The only thing either do is prevent the horse, physically, from putting it's head where it wants to (in my Amira's case, this was in my front teeth, but then she was an Arab......)

 

[Littlegoesalongway]

Coming from a NH background, I used to really struggle with the concept of 'contact' as well. Some of the current teachings out there can leave a person afraid of contact or completely against it. Didn't help that I switched from dressage as a kid, to reining in my teens - disciplines at complete opposite ends of the contact spectrum, which left me thoroughly confused. It took struggling with a super-sensitive/ ultra-light but tense riding horse, and some superb instruction from a couple talented clinicians & drivers that finally brought some clarity for me on key points:

1. As mentioned by some others above, proper contact is really like holding hands with your horse. It's an intimate, physical connection between horse and rider/driver. It's also a way of intimately conversing with your horse. It's like holding hands with a dance partner...you can feel of & for each other, rather than just one person dictating what you both are going to do.

2. Proper contact is a following feel in your hands - it is NOT a pull (HUGE difference!) As humans, our natural tendancy is to pull, grab, hold onto things & we do it unconsciously. You can take up more contact/more of a hold/more weight in your hands and as long as you maintain the "following-feel" to the horse then it is still a forgiving contact. As soon as you loose that following feel though, it quickly changes to a pulling/grabbing/forcing feel to the horse and you've lost the connection and the conversation

3. In driving, contact is very important as it's your ONLY direct connection with your horse (with riding you have your weight, seat, legs & hands). And because it's such an intimate connection, your horse can feel you & feel your intentions much more clearly, quickly & more subtlety. They can respond quicker to a subtle feel than they can to a cue (like voice or a tap of the whip)

4. In terms of contact, there is a HUGE difference between 'lightness' and true 'softness'. A horse can be light & responsive to the rein but not soft to it. If they are light without softness then they are actually avoiding the connection. They either don't understand enough, trust enough or respect enough to hold hands with you and let you be the leader in the dance. True softness is a responsiveness with total relaxation, willingness & trust. The horse then finds complete comfort in the connection and they'll actually seek the contact because they find comfort in you leading them. Which leads to point #....

5. The horse sets the amount of contact, not the rider. Some horses prefer a stronger connection, some prefer a more subtle connection. Since a following feel is really a conversation between horse & rider/driver, then it's up to the rider to understand that the horse isn't just trying to pull away from the contact but are infact trying to tell you that they need a stronger connection.