AMHR ASPC show rules on measurement

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Norah

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Hi,

Wondered if someone could clarify the rules on measuring for a rated show. It was my understanding that regardless of a "permanent measuring card" each and every horse must e measured at the show. Is this true ? What do you do when a horses owner hands you a card that is a few years old , or that is stating a measurement that is clearly under what the horse appears to be, and won't allow the steward to measure?

Thanks for clearing this up
 

JMS Miniatures

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All horses/ponies that have permanent measurement cards must be remeasured at the beginning of each show year, a competition year is Dec 1st-November 30th. Once that is done they don't need to be measured again til the next show year, or unless you want a different height, and they must be measured at Nationals and Congress.

Annual cards will be give to miniatures under 2 years of age and ponies under 5 years of age and is only valid for 60 days, if you show past the 60 day mark that horse will need to be measured again.
 

Norah

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So what if that permanent card reads 37.75 and the horse isbigger then your 41 inch horse (in eye site ) ?
 

Minimor

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If it is AMHR then the horse must be measured at the first show of the year. If the owner refuses then the horse doesn't get to show, that is my understanding.

If it is an ASPC pony then the pony does not have to be measured--just heel length gets measured at the first show of the year.

if the horse looks to be too tall for the height division then someone could protest and force a measurenent
 

JMS Miniatures

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So what if that permanent card reads 37.75 and the horse isbigger then your 41 inch horse (in eye site ) ?
Is this a miniature? If so if you show that said horse and if that horse measures it's possible that horse will loose it's AMHR papers. But those papers should be turned in no matter what though.

If it's a shetland just ask the steward to remeasure and they can resend you a new permanent card.
 

Norah

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well, here is the deal , a group of AMHR ASOC horses were purchased by " " and imported... all look to be outgrowing their AMHR papers.... not such a big deal for you guys , but here in Europe the ASPC classes are not being introduced yet . Some shows are accepting AMHR horses, so its real impt. for us to have horses well under the 38 inches....

Honestly this doesnt matter anymore because I just found out that the horse was never measured at a different show , like it clamed to be : ( the other show was more or less a schooling show , but the fact is , the owner is lieing about the height , probably because they are breeding to a mare that has also outgrown the R papers : ( I despise dishonesty, they will in turn do a quick sell , and the poor new owner wont have any shows to go to unless she can find an open pony show : ( sad situation. but now I know the rules a bit better then the book stated, thanks for the clarification
 

JMS Miniatures

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Sorry for your situation. It may not help you in this situation cause you lack pony classes over there but there is the NSPPR. It's for small ponies, under 14.2 hands by the wither that are crossed with AMHRXAMHR, AMHRXOUTCROSS, ASPCXASPC, ASPCXOUTCROSS. It allows horses in this circumstance a place for them to go if they do go over their papers. But it's not a breeding registry it's a performance registry and it is part of the AMHR/ASPC.
 

Norah

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I am really against cross breeding ...So I would never enter a class as such , I fortunatly have horses that fit within their registery : ) The cross breeding is just something that I dont like because i feel it weakens the breed , in that they become less valuable . This is just my own personal belief , but I feel cross breeding shouldnt be allowed , breeding different types within the registry is fine , but when you start accepting cross breeding with horses not registered there is no way you can control the limits of what is considered enhancing , and what is a stupid and unhealthy thing to do ... too many people out there that think they are breeders when they dont know a thing about their breed or what they are doing ... we got enough of those here ; ( breeding crap and selling to uneducated people for a fortune : (
 

Lewella

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AMHR has to measure the first show of the year and that measurement is put on the back of their permanent card.

ASPC has a heel measurement done at the first show of the year and that is put on the back of their permanent card.

Depending on how far the mane goes down and how high the wither is it isn't unheard of for their to be a 3 inch difference between measurements. With a Modern that was shown shod up with pads and a long foot, who has a high wither and a mane that goes down to its back, I've seen the difference between Modern permanent height and AMHR permanent height be up to 5 inches!

That said, I was concerned that several of the ponies X bought as ASPC/AMHR were too tall for their AMHR papers from the time I first heard which ponies were going to Europe.

JMS - it is highly unlikely that AMHR papers would be revoked for going over height. The rule book only says the board will review them and that is only if they measure over officially at a show.
 

Norah

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Lewella , you are exactly RIGHT !!! every single flippen horse has outgrown its papers, one even its ASPC papers : 0 and these oversized horses are being bred to make babys that will be oversized ...grrrrrrr

funny how dishonesty has a domino effect .I was told Sweet measured at 36 inches GRRRRR... find out now she was never measured before buying , but they needed someone with money to buy 1 horse at full price , so the rest would be a lot cheaper !!! also learning that my mare had an accident of some sort , and this is the large bump on her spine ... thank god its not doing harm to her , however the countless hours of round penning at a young age has made her sour ... I took down the round pen, for good !!! were doing different groundwork now in straight lines.People dont round pen your horses until they have matured, at least 3 years old IMO ... one more grrrrrrr I need to talk to you about that mess will e mail you
 

dreaminmini

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Unfortunately, it does happen that these double registered do go over the mini height and owners that bought them to show AMHR are now out of luck. But at Nationals this year I saw quite a few horses being shown out of their height range. Very obviously even to my fairly inexperience eye. One in particular was bigger than my 33 1/2" mare and it was in a 31" and under class and it won!!
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So apparently there is a new measuring stick out there about 3 inches taller than the old regulation one.
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valshingle

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Norah - so sorry you got taken. Not all US breeders are that way, but the unscrupulous ones give us all a bad name.
 

Norah

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yes I know , I have met some wonderful breeders in the US. and now i am meeting some here in Europe. I guess there are dishonest people everywhere . I am done worring about the dishonesty in Europe , as there is too much of it with the cross breeding , lieing on the papers , the measurements. I dont really care anymore , because you cant win, and you cant make them honest. I will stick to the few local shows put on by honest people here . The club that is so dishonest i have left . I am not going to get involved in ASPC horses anymore, just enjoy the two I rescued : ) what keeps me up at night is thinking about the 18, thousand I contributed to this rotten club of liers and cheaters in hopes to help them become "better" people . I should have spent the money on rescuing more horses that need better homes . at least 2 are no longer being starved and boxed : )
 
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dreaminmini

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Norah, love your avatar pic.
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I hear you. I am starting to feel the same way. My show season this year left a very bad taste in my mouth. I am going to spend the winter deciding if or how i want to continue. I love to show, it is fun and there are nice honest people out there and I have made friends that I cherish. But it is so disheartening watching the liars and cheats and abusers taking top honours. But if the honest people all quit what will happen?? That is my dilemma, why should I be chased off, or maybe if enough of us quit then will the registry be forced into change??
 

Norah

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thank you for the compliment on Miss Sweet . she stretches like this every morning ..lol... her ," Cafelatte " in the morning. I started showing in Europe when I moved here 5 years ago. I got involved in a club that was spirialing downhill very quickly. I did everything i could to educate the members , and club, and helped them put on a rated show , even paid for it . The president and manager of the club and show wont submit the paperwork so we can get our points, because he lied about the measurements of his horses , and many other thing. For this reason I am no longer in the club, and I am no longer showing. When the liers , and cheaters come up in the world smelling like roses , its time for me to quit. There are so many bad things being done here that it makes my head spin , but no one has an interest to set things straight ....

I enjoyed my horses a whole lot more before i ever got involved in the clubs , registries and showing . The lieing , abuse , and horsemanship gets me down. My favorite is when people think that horses are like fish , keep them in a small box without food and they will stay small . Pitched backs , and wormy bellies , I love it ! : ( when you try to suggest feeding options other then hay , and straw , and giving the horse an occasional wormer , they call you a B****. So I am done , I will no longer try to help or educate people other then my small group of horse lovers . It just to frustrating , and back stabbing for me .
 

dreaminmini

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That is awful!!! So sorry that happened to you.What a shame!

The problem is no one wants to step up because if you do you are branded a troublemaker, it's only sour grapes because your horse lost, or they do other things to make showing difficult. Flatten tires on your cart, lose paperwork etc.

Maybe you can start a 4h type group and teach the young ones so hopefully they can grow up better horseman and better show people than their parents.
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Have some fun doing smaller shows, because it is fun to show. I sent you a link you may want to check out too.
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