Could anyone answer this question for me. Is the AMHA a breed of horse or just a registry, i have had a lot of different opinions about this from people in the UK , some say its a breed some say its a registry..
What is it??
What is it??
AMHA breed or registry
- Thread starter raine
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rabbitsfizz
Well-Known Member
Yes. What KayKay said
Not really agreeing or disagreeing but why is it not a breed? AQHA most certainly does not have a set "type" and allow outcrosses still to be registered AQHA so what is the distinction between AQHA breed and AMHR/AMHA registry?
Charlotte
Well-Known Member
Hi raine, You will find a lot of differing opinions here on this forum, but the bottom line is..........
There is no 'body', or authority out there which confers 'breeddom' on a group of horses.
My dictionary defines BREED: A genetic strain or type of organisim with consistent and recognizable inherited characteristics.
The AMHA American Miniature Horse fits this definition, and has breed restrictions just like all other breeds have. Those restrictions might be height or color or ancestry, etc.
Charlotte
p.s. ASPC has a height restriction also as do a number of other breeds of horses...some of the height restrictions refer to a horse not being UNDER a certain height.
There is no 'body', or authority out there which confers 'breeddom' on a group of horses.
My dictionary defines BREED: A genetic strain or type of organisim with consistent and recognizable inherited characteristics.
The AMHA American Miniature Horse fits this definition, and has breed restrictions just like all other breeds have. Those restrictions might be height or color or ancestry, etc.
Charlotte
p.s. ASPC has a height restriction also as do a number of other breeds of horses...some of the height restrictions refer to a horse not being UNDER a certain height.
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Charlotte
Well-Known Member
Hmmm Lisa, Am I not understanding what I'm reading? Where it says "to be eligible for registration"?
Page 173 of the ASPC on line rule book.
Part 3 – Height for Classic Shetlands
A. To be eligible for registration, the maximum height at
the withers shall not exceed 46”. There are two major
show ring height divisions for Classic Shetlands.
There are graduated divisions within the two height
divisions for Classic ponies less than three (3) years of
age.
B. Over Division of Classic Shetlands
3 years old and older – Over 42” not to exceed 46”
2 years old – Over 41” not to exceed 44.5”
1 year old – Over 40” not to exceed 43”
C. Under Division of Classic Shetlands
3 years old and older – 42” and under
2 years old – 41” and under
1 year old – 40” and under
Page 173 of the ASPC on line rule book.
Part 3 – Height for Classic Shetlands
A. To be eligible for registration, the maximum height at
the withers shall not exceed 46”. There are two major
show ring height divisions for Classic Shetlands.
There are graduated divisions within the two height
divisions for Classic ponies less than three (3) years of
age.
B. Over Division of Classic Shetlands
3 years old and older – Over 42” not to exceed 46”
2 years old – Over 41” not to exceed 44.5”
1 year old – Over 40” not to exceed 43”
C. Under Division of Classic Shetlands
3 years old and older – 42” and under
2 years old – 41” and under
1 year old – 40” and under
Charlotte I am no rule book expert for sure and there are many problems with our rule book and this is a good example. If you read further down on page 174 part 5 "elgibility for registration" All it says is the horse must be from ASPC registered shetlands. And says that the book has been closed since 1955 for registering imported Shetlands.
I "think" the part you are quoting is more to do with Showing (as it says a couple paragraphs below) but for sure it is confusing
IMO (and that wont even get you coffee) if you look at the definition of BREED it says CONSISTENCY IN TYPE. Where is the consistency in type??? I dont see it in AMHA OR AMHR. Just take a look at people who post here and the different types of miniatures posted.
Quarter horse
Araby
Thourghbred
Draft
For sure if AMHA proclaims they are a breed and then try to revoke papers on a horse that goes over 34" there will be a lawsuit Im sure. Its been done in other breeds and they win the suit because at the end of the day if you are a breed you cannot kick out a AMHA X AMHA horse as long as both sire and dam were AMHA registered.
I "think" the part you are quoting is more to do with Showing (as it says a couple paragraphs below) but for sure it is confusing
IMO (and that wont even get you coffee) if you look at the definition of BREED it says CONSISTENCY IN TYPE. Where is the consistency in type??? I dont see it in AMHA OR AMHR. Just take a look at people who post here and the different types of miniatures posted.
Quarter horse
Araby
Thourghbred
Draft
For sure if AMHA proclaims they are a breed and then try to revoke papers on a horse that goes over 34" there will be a lawsuit Im sure. Its been done in other breeds and they win the suit because at the end of the day if you are a breed you cannot kick out a AMHA X AMHA horse as long as both sire and dam were AMHA registered.
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Riverdance
Well-Known Member
There has been a lot of talk about closing the registry and making AMHA a breed.
I agree if they do that, then any horse with AMHA papers is still an AMHA horse.
I have said before, in the dog show world a Tibetan Terrier can not be over a certain height. If it is, then it will be disqualified from the show ring. It does not make it any less of a Tibetan Terrier, just not eligible for showing. The breeder then has to decide if it is worth breeding to this dog with the chance that some, if not all of its offspring will go over, and thus be no good for the show ring. The same should hold true for the AMHA Mini.
I agree if they do that, then any horse with AMHA papers is still an AMHA horse.
I have said before, in the dog show world a Tibetan Terrier can not be over a certain height. If it is, then it will be disqualified from the show ring. It does not make it any less of a Tibetan Terrier, just not eligible for showing. The breeder then has to decide if it is worth breeding to this dog with the chance that some, if not all of its offspring will go over, and thus be no good for the show ring. The same should hold true for the AMHA Mini.
This has been discussed before and I cannot remember all the points made, but the conclusion was that AMHA/AMHR are not "breeds"- they are height registries only. My undersanding is that there is no "breed" of miniautre horse because there is no set type along with several other points of clarification. John Eberth can give a much better explanation as to what declares a breed and what doesn't- it is much too specific for me to repeat correctly.
In a breed- if 2 animals of one breed produce a resulting animal- it is part of the breed- regardless of the outcome- color, size, etc. I think the dog world defines breed more specifically to match the scientific definition. I will see if I can get John to post on this one again.
Robin-LKF
In a breed- if 2 animals of one breed produce a resulting animal- it is part of the breed- regardless of the outcome- color, size, etc. I think the dog world defines breed more specifically to match the scientific definition. I will see if I can get John to post on this one again.
Robin-LKF
Charlotte
Well-Known Member
Hey KayKay, this is a good topic....like I said, LOTS of different opinions. Looking at the rule book, I have to take it as it's written.
As for
Come have a cup of coffee!!!!!
Charlotte
As for
In the modern AMHA show ring I'm really seeing this. I do think the AMHA breed has moved forward by leaps and bounds in the last 10 years and the similarity of type is becoming more and more defined every year. (just for us personally, we are getting VERY consistent type from our skipper/Cowboy crosses)I think...(another opinion here)...You will always see horses in any breed that don't fit the breed type...no matter what the breed...some just like a 'different look'. That doesn't make an Arabian less of an Arabian, just maybe not what is popular.
Come have a cup of coffee!!!!!
Charlotte
JMS Miniatures
Well-Known Member
I feel like the miniature horses soon one day can become a breed. They just need to get their act together and work on some guidelines.
Minimor
Well-Known Member
It's a well known fact that a pony that measures too tall at a show will not lose his papers, he just cannot be shown. Any Director will, I'm sure, give you that same answer.
There certainty seems to be lots of opinions , but say for example a miniature horse is under 34" and is registered with the BMHS ,AEMHS and the AMHA or AMHR what breed does that make that horse?
and when someone says to me what is the difference between a non AMHA miniature and an AMHA miniature....it always gets me thinking because theres not a difference, there for how can one become a specific breed? and one just a miniature horse.
Someone said to me,not long ago " i dont breed miniature horses i breed American miniature Horses" inplying one was different from the other.
One of my mares although a dels cowboy grandaughter isnt registered with the AMHA, does that then not make her an American miniature horse....!
what is she!! ha ha
Sorry all the questions but its nice to hear what everyone thinks
and when someone says to me what is the difference between a non AMHA miniature and an AMHA miniature....it always gets me thinking because theres not a difference, there for how can one become a specific breed? and one just a miniature horse.
Someone said to me,not long ago " i dont breed miniature horses i breed American miniature Horses" inplying one was different from the other.
One of my mares although a dels cowboy grandaughter isnt registered with the AMHA, does that then not make her an American miniature horse....!
Sorry all the questions but its nice to hear what everyone thinks
rabbitsfizz
Well-Known Member
A horse registered with the BMHS is a British Miniature Horse, as are all mine, in spite of the fact that all my foundation stock were, and half still are, registered with the AMHA.
Rabbit is registered with the AMHA, the BMHS , IMHPS and the SPSBS and he is a British Miniature Horse, as he was bred as one and born here.
There is no difference in the animal, only the registration details.
I do not believe the Miniature Horse, anywhere, is yet a breed in this sense a Welsh Pony is, for example, but I do believe, form the strong reactions that are aroused every time this topic comes up, that it soon will be.
Closing the book will not make the American Mini a breed, only the careful actions and the dedication of the breeders will do that.
Whatever you may see in the show ring, this is merely the tip of the iceberg, and it has always been a fact that, in any breed, horses that are winning , at least for a season or two, seem to be of one "sort", this is often referred to as what is "fashionable" for the moment!
This is also true of dogs, I noticed, a few years back, a strong "American" influence in Dobes, with the dogs becoming lighter boned, more elegant, then there was a backlash against this and the Germans had their day, and so it goes on.
It does not harm the breed, they are still all Dobermanns, the only thing that harms the breed is when the fashion calls for an extreme, as with the fashion for stretching....and look what that did to the GSD!!!........or, and this is a real danger with our "babies", height.
I saw a lot of potential harm in Dobes in a fashion for larger and larger dogs, we set a height limit, as did the American Society, but people bred outside the ring standards. Luckily, this fashion has died down here, I see it is still fashionable in a few places in the States, but not in the ring....if we continue to breed smaller and smaller we will (and are) hit HUGE problems...sorry I am digressing, that is a subject for another thread, I think.
Is the AMHA a breed?
No, most certainly not, closing the book does not and will not make it a breed.
It is a very good start, but it is way premature.
Ten years time, for a final closing of the doors.
And we actually know this for a fact, as we tried, a few years back, to close our breed doors and I did a genetic survey, the gene pool was not large enough, nor is that of the AMHA. We are not talking volume, here, we are talking quality.
Do this in private, now.
You have the choice of twenty stallions, anywhere in America, all expenses paid, to which you can breed any mare of your choice. Pick them.
Please....IN PRIVATE!!!!!
I'll bet you can't get past ....ooh, ten??
How can you found a breed on that number of top quality animals?
Rabbit is registered with the AMHA, the BMHS , IMHPS and the SPSBS and he is a British Miniature Horse, as he was bred as one and born here.
There is no difference in the animal, only the registration details.
I do not believe the Miniature Horse, anywhere, is yet a breed in this sense a Welsh Pony is, for example, but I do believe, form the strong reactions that are aroused every time this topic comes up, that it soon will be.
Closing the book will not make the American Mini a breed, only the careful actions and the dedication of the breeders will do that.
Whatever you may see in the show ring, this is merely the tip of the iceberg, and it has always been a fact that, in any breed, horses that are winning , at least for a season or two, seem to be of one "sort", this is often referred to as what is "fashionable" for the moment!
This is also true of dogs, I noticed, a few years back, a strong "American" influence in Dobes, with the dogs becoming lighter boned, more elegant, then there was a backlash against this and the Germans had their day, and so it goes on.
It does not harm the breed, they are still all Dobermanns, the only thing that harms the breed is when the fashion calls for an extreme, as with the fashion for stretching....and look what that did to the GSD!!!........or, and this is a real danger with our "babies", height.
I saw a lot of potential harm in Dobes in a fashion for larger and larger dogs, we set a height limit, as did the American Society, but people bred outside the ring standards. Luckily, this fashion has died down here, I see it is still fashionable in a few places in the States, but not in the ring....if we continue to breed smaller and smaller we will (and are) hit HUGE problems...sorry I am digressing, that is a subject for another thread, I think.
Is the AMHA a breed?
No, most certainly not, closing the book does not and will not make it a breed.
It is a very good start, but it is way premature.
Ten years time, for a final closing of the doors.
And we actually know this for a fact, as we tried, a few years back, to close our breed doors and I did a genetic survey, the gene pool was not large enough, nor is that of the AMHA. We are not talking volume, here, we are talking quality.
Do this in private, now.
You have the choice of twenty stallions, anywhere in America, all expenses paid, to which you can breed any mare of your choice. Pick them.
Please....IN PRIVATE!!!!!
I'll bet you can't get past ....ooh, ten??
How can you found a breed on that number of top quality animals?
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aww charlotte ya know i luv ya
To be a breed though the type has to be set by the breed organization. If you look at the standards for AMHA or AMHR its not there. Its such a loose standard. If you look at the standards for example a classic shetland its very specific.
Im not at all saying they shouldnt be a breed, just that there is a lot that has to be thought out to make that happen.
I also feel strongly that the miniatures have to start being judged on how they move and not just trot a line to show they are not lame. I dont think this is addressed at all in the current standards but someone can correct me if Im wrong
Rabbit I disagree on the stallion thing. I can name 10 stallions pretty easily
Miniatures have come a long way just in the 9 years I have been doing this!
Kay
To be a breed though the type has to be set by the breed organization. If you look at the standards for AMHA or AMHR its not there. Its such a loose standard. If you look at the standards for example a classic shetland its very specific.
Im not at all saying they shouldnt be a breed, just that there is a lot that has to be thought out to make that happen.
I also feel strongly that the miniatures have to start being judged on how they move and not just trot a line to show they are not lame. I dont think this is addressed at all in the current standards but someone can correct me if Im wrong
Rabbit I disagree on the stallion thing. I can name 10 stallions pretty easily
Miniatures have come a long way just in the 9 years I have been doing this!
Kay
rabbitsfizz
Well-Known Member
Yes, Kay, so can I name ten.
Now name twenty, which is what I asked!!!
The point is, with under twenty top quality stallions, you cannot found a breed.
With the stock already in the registry, you can, most certainly, breed towards the goal.
The AMHA needs to set goals for it's breeders, or have them set the goals, even better still, for each year of a ten year, minimum, stretch.
At the end of that ten years (ball park figure, BTW) the basic concepts of a breed should have been well established.
The original breed description, BTW, seems to have been taken almost word for word, from the Breed Description of the UK Shetland, which, of course the original Miniature did resemble.
Went full circle when the original Director of the BMHS adopted that description for our society!!
Not even sure we have changed it, which seems a bit ironic!!
Now name twenty, which is what I asked!!!
The point is, with under twenty top quality stallions, you cannot found a breed.
With the stock already in the registry, you can, most certainly, breed towards the goal.
The AMHA needs to set goals for it's breeders, or have them set the goals, even better still, for each year of a ten year, minimum, stretch.
At the end of that ten years (ball park figure, BTW) the basic concepts of a breed should have been well established.
The original breed description, BTW, seems to have been taken almost word for word, from the Breed Description of the UK Shetland, which, of course the original Miniature did resemble.
Went full circle when the original Director of the BMHS adopted that description for our society!!
Not even sure we have changed it, which seems a bit ironic!!
Charlotte
Well-Known Member
Hey Rabbitsfizz....I always like seeing your perspective on things. You come for coffee too.........We'll have a great discussion!
So I'm just saying, There are WAY more superior quality individuals in the USA, of WAY diverse genetics, than anyone will realize unless anyone is very active on many levels within the USA AMHA breed. You would be amazed, honestly.
So.....when are we having this coffee-klatch?
Charlotte
Now I do strongly disagree with this opinion you have stated. If I had permission from owners I could tell you about 20+ TOP quality stallions right in this area....within about a 100 or 200 ( I have a problem judging distances) mile radius of Oklahoma City. But most of those owners have never heard of LilBeginnings so you don't see their horses on here. Most of them don't advertise in the World magazine. Their farms are known from local advertising and from some of those horses and their get competing successfully (locally) in the show ring against the horses that are named World Champion & Top Ten for that particular year. In some cases those horses have never seen the show ring, many have never had a professional photograph, but they are outstanding individuals that could hold their own in any show venue. (by outstanding individuals, I mean, conformation including movement, breed type, size, and quality of get)
So I'm just saying, There are WAY more superior quality individuals in the USA, of WAY diverse genetics, than anyone will realize unless anyone is very active on many levels within the USA AMHA breed. You would be amazed, honestly.
So.....when are we having this coffee-klatch?
Charlotte
Becky
Well-Known Member
I would have to strongly disagree with that thought! There are many top quality stallions across the USA. If you are basing your opinion on the members on this Forum, they compromise a very, very small percentage of AMHA members in the USA. As Charlotte has pointed out, there again are a very few that actually advertise and show. It sure doesn't mean they don't have top quality stallions!
Sue_C.
Well-Known Member
Just to be Devils' Advocate here... The Morgan breed was started with only ONE...and just look what ONE Arabian did for the Thoroughbred.
