AMHA/AMHR

[Echo Acres]

Okay, by all of the discussion on the forum the last couple of days I can see there are some strong feelings. So I may be throwing in a whole new ball of wax, but here is what has been bothering me. Since I got into minis (going on 4 years ago) Lots has changed with the registries. I have to say with my whole experience I lean towards AMHR, but that is just personal opinion. However, I struggle with the decisions these registries are making. Are they really making them for the best interest of the registry and their members, or are they doing it to spite the other registry?

When I first became involved, AMHR was much easier to deal with, and a lot cheaper on fees. Now AMHR is more expensive on a lot of things, and harder to deal with on some things. I totally understand if the membership fee had not changed in many years, yes there needed to be an increase. But such a HUGE one, I doubt it. AMHA is pulling themselves out of debt in a very short amount of time with what they have, why does AMHR seem to have to up everything so high? Also AMHR goes from having a youth card until they are 18 to having to ask for a new one each year. Now AMHA just turned around and did the opposite. It seems like they are so concerned about being different and getting at each other that they are not looking out for their members and it is going to hurt them in the long run. This whole measuring thing and hardshipping horses is just another example. If things continue, my opinion might just change. It seems as though AMHA realized that their association was hurting by how things were and are trying to change for the better. I really hope that AMHR isn't going in the wrong direction. Okay everyone, fire away!

 

[Fred]

Both registries have their good points but they have their bad ones too. AMHA has turned around financially so quickly because of one particular individual that has done an amazing job. That would be the former treasurer Tom O'Connell. Granted the registry itself has pulled out of the hole but I do not believe it would have without Tom. My biggest complaint about amha is the fact they do not recognize anything about amhr and the horses. If your horse wins a championship in amhr the amha will not recognize it at all but yet if you win at worlds its a champion and can advertise it in the amhr journal and amha world magazine. We are all supposed to work together to promote the miniatures no matter what the registry but the plain hard fact is amha will not recognize anything to do with amhr and amhr was the first registry. In the amhr journal you can at least say your horse has won in amha but in the amha world magazine you are not allowed to use any reference to amhr. Look it up. If you help out, say at an expo and do demo's for amha you should never mention amhr because it might offend an amha member and yes this has happened. I show both but I do prefer amhr, and I will tell you in the area I live in we do have some good amha shows and members but we also have some extremely BAD ones that believe me you have to experience them to believe it. The farm I worked for in the past was mainly amha and let me tell you it was drilled over and over how much better amha was than amhr, how the amhr shows and horses were inferior, etc, etc. I got tired of it and just showed the shows I wanted and I had more fun at the amhr shows where people would at least talk to you and not be so darn uptight.

 

[Minimor]

but in the amha world magazine you are not allowed to use any reference to amhr.

ah, but the really funny thing was last year (or was it the year before? I'd have to go back & check, time goes by so fast) when the AMHA World magazine ran a photo (without naming the horse) of an AMHR B division national champion....a stallion that is not and never was AMHA registered.

That was just too amazing to see that horse in the AMHA magazine (and it wasn't the horse owner that put him there, it was all the doing of someone on the magazine staff). Tsk.

 

[JWC sr.]

You know it is really a shame that we have folks out there in the minature community that feel they have to put down someone else in order to make themselves feel better or whatever. Facts is as one of the posters before me in this thread said, both registires have respective strong points and respective weak points. OH!

That is the same with any large group of people that have like interests. I wish at some point folks will fiqure out that to demean one registry is actually doing harm to both. Which is something I am going to personally and thru our marketing group work against any chance I get. These little horses deserve nothing less than that commitment from me as an owner, lover and breeder.

All of our horses with two or three exceptions are double registered and we show at both venues. We enjoy the people at the shows and also enjoy seeing the horse from both the AMHA & AMHR side of the isle. there are indeed some beautiful horses that only carry one set of papers and it sure does not diminish them in my eyes. I personally applaude the folks that produce and show them as the little works of living art that they are.

Are the fees too high and do I wish they were less. In some instances yes I think they may be, but not having been in on the inside so to speak to completely understand the finances and costs associated with the charges that are made I personally will reserve my opinion till I do have all the facts to make a judgement in that area.

As far as Tom is concerned he is a good guy and has served AMHA well in the past few years and I appreciate the work he has put in, I also am sure he will do a good job as the new Vice President of AMHA.

But I also know that the savior of AMHA were the folks that put up the money when things were not doing well several years ago and AMHA was basically bankrupt that are largely responsible for the improved situation. That goes for the financial committtee that put up the over 500,000.00 to bail AMHA out and the general membership that early registered horses and did all the other things that were required to make it all happen from a cash flow standpoint. Those folks, members and finacial loaners alike are the folks I tip my hat to when ever I get the chance.

It goes to prove out my point that anything can be accomplished as long as we all work together. Yes we may have differences, but none are to large for us as a group of decicated miniature horse lovers.

Enough of my rambling, but I hope we can all realize that it is not AMHA or AMHR independently, but rather we the miniature horse people and industry that are capable of helping the respective registries do whatever needs to be done by commitment, patience and hard work from all of us jointly. This industry is strong and will be for years to come through those efforts.

 

[kaykay]

Years ago Lowell Boone talked and told me the story of how the two registries ALMOST became one again and at the last minute it fell through. I think to myself how different things would be now if they had come back together. Im not sure it would have been good. I used to think dang I wish they would have combined! And now I think boy Im glad they didnt combine!

Both registries for sure have things that need to be changed or worked one.

Wether one is better then the other really depends on each person's goals and what they want to accomplish.

I do feel though that the gap between the two is now very wide and will only get wider. I really feel both registries will continue to pass rules to get further away from the other one. Once that happens its going to be even harder for people who like to be a part of both.

 

[BLACKWATER FARMS]

As someone new to minis I'm not really sure what all the fuss is about--it's two registries, if you don't agree with one or the other, don't support it. If you don't like something, then work to change it.

In dogs we have multiple registries for the same breed. We also deal with foreign standards. For the same breed of dog, the standards are different in different countries--but you know what? It's just really not that hard. As a breeder I have my own interpretation of the "standards"--and in my minds eye what "perfect" is. I sell, and promote dogs on multiple continents and internationally have Best in Specialty/Best in Shows under about 9 different registries--the standards all have slight differences (height, color, and even disqualifications differ)--but quality is quality--the dog isn't any different if it lives in Michigan or lives in France or Japan!

If you focus on the fringes of your standards you won't be a consistent producer. If you keep using over horses then eventually you may have a beautiful horse, but not a beautiful exceptional MINIATURE horse.

That's just my 2 cents.

Linda

 

[minimomNC]

Hey everyone this is minimom's daughter Samantha, and i occasionally browse throught lil beginnings and this bulletin caught my eye. It always interests me that on these debates a majority of the time people prefer AMHR over AMHA....which is common not only on here but other places as well. So i thought i would put my two cents in about why i prefer AMHA over AMHR.

When my mom and i started showing miniatures 4 years ago we showed both A and R. But when it came time for us to go to Nationals, except for the few people we knew....no one was very nice to us. And also we got( for lack of a better word) in trouble for working our horses on golf carts in the arena, even though we got up and worked them at 6:30 in the morning so we didnt disturb people warming up their driving horses. Therefore, we just chose not to go back because we didnt enjoy ourselves. Also, i kind of feel that AMHR is becoming all about the shetlands....which i find GORGEOUS! but when you have a miniature and you find yourself in a class with small shetlands.....that makes things rough in my opinion. Last but not least, i really hated having a gazillion horses in each of my classes. I dont like that there arent more standards for qualifying for Nationals and ive heard that its making the driving classes a little too HUGE.

We also went to World that year and for us it was a completely different story. We were able to go to an amateur party where we met tons of people and make friends. Also at world they set up a driving warmup arena AND a golf cart arena....how awesome! The classes are large but not overly so, its nice to go into the ring and when you look around, you know that the horses earned the right to be there by qualifying. So we have been back every year since.

When you arent exactly rich (AKA poor! haha) and you cant show both sometimes you have to pick the lesser of two evils and we just prefer AMHA. Now most of our local horse friends do show R and so you will probaly be seeing me showing a few horses in Rt his year. I dont hate R but i much prefer A.

Thanks for reading and no crucifying me on the board haha.

 

[kaykay]

Linda

As you are in this industry longer I think you will understand more what the issues are and how they affect many farms.

Many farms have to try and straddle the fence and be in both AMHA and AMHR. Its not an easy straddle to do!

And I do not mean this at all to be rude etc but you will also find that the dog world and the horse world are very different. There are some similiarities but there are also some huge differences.

I do take a bit of offense to this statement of yours, but I am so used to statements like this that I dont get nearly as upset as I used to

If you keep using over horses then eventually you may have a beautiful horse, but not a beautiful exceptional MINIATURE horse.

I will keep using my over MINIATURE horses and continue to produce beautiful over and under division MINIATURE horses. I will also continue breeding my ASPC/AMHR crosses and produce beautiful APSC/AMHR Shetland Pony/MINIATURE horses

Kay

 

[BLACKWATER FARMS]

Linda

As you are in this industry longer I think you will understand more what the issues are and how they affect many farms.

Many farms have to try and straddle the fence and be in both AMHA and AMHR. Its not an easy straddle to do!

And I do not mean this at all to be rude etc but you will also find that the dog world and the horse world are very different. There are some similiarities but there are also some huge differences.

I do take a bit of offense to this statement of yours, but I am so used to statements like this that I dont get nearly as upset as I used to

If you keep using over horses then eventually you may have a beautiful horse, but not a beautiful exceptional MINIATURE horse.

I will keep using my over MINIATURE horses and continue to produce beautiful over and under division MINIATURE horses. I will also continue breeding my ASPC/AMHR crosses and produce beautiful APSC/AMHR Shetland Pony/MINIATURE horses

Kay

I'm not sure Kay why you took offense to anything in that statement, it is fact, if you breed oversized (and this is determined by what you think the size of a miniature horse should be) horses long enough, you will genetically most likely keep getting horses that are oversized, you can breed them but according to the rules of the club you can't exhibit them----my point was breed to whatever standard you feel fits best with your interpretation and support those clubs that fit in line with your interpretations and goals, or work to change those things you feel strongly about--sorry if you were offended by that. And the major similarity between dog and horse world it that no matter what venue you can't please everyone. And FYI, I said new to mini horses, not horses.

 

[Belinda]

You know it is really a shame that we have folks out there in the minature community that feel they have to put down someone else in order to make themselves feel better or whatever. Facts is as one of the posters before me in this thread said, both registires have respective strong points and respective weak points. OH!

As far as Tom is concerned he is a good guy and has served AMHA well in the past few years and I appreciate the work he has put in, I also am sure he will do a good job as the new Vice President of AMHA.

But I also know that the savior of AMHA were the folks that put up the money when things were not doing well several years ago and AMHA was basically bankrupt that are largely responsible for the improved situation. That goes for the financial committtee that put up the over 500,000.00 to bail AMHA out and the general membership that early registered horses and did all the other things that were required to make it all happen from a cash flow standpoint. Those folks, members and finacial loaners alike are the folks I tip my hat to when ever I get the chance.

It goes to prove out my point that anything can be accomplished as long as we all work together. Yes we may have differences, but none are to large for us as a group of decicated miniature horse lovers.

Thanks John for such WISE WORDS

For those also that continue to say there is some kind of personal war between AMHA and AMHR , That is untrue ! As the war is not with the Registrys themselves but with the Members

I first hand know that when AMHA was in the trouble that John pointed out above ,, Larry Parnell was Pres. of AMHR and HE PERSONALLY CALLED THE PRESIDENT & The TREASURE OF AMHA and offered any help AMHR /ASPC could give to help them , NOT TO DESTROY them..... !! And that is a FACT AND YOU CAN TAKE IT TO THE BANK

The two Registry's are Great for each , we would all be in a world of hurt if one or the other went down.. Believe me , And this is from someone that was born and raised in Both Assoc.. And that sadly enough is now well over 50 YR.. (( Oh my I just really scared myself.. LOL !! ))

So heres to

to a GReat new Year of 08' and wishing eveyone happy times and wonderful foaling season...

 

[Leeana]

I'm not sure Kay why you took offense to anything in that statement, it is fact, if you breed oversized (and this is determined by what you think the size of a miniature horse should be) horses long enough, you will genetically most likely keep getting horses that are oversized, you can breed them but according to the rules of the club you can't exhibit them----my point was breed to whatever standard you feel fits best with your interpretation and support those clubs that fit in line with your interpretations and goals, or work to change those things you feel strongly about--sorry if you were offended by that. And the major similarity between dog and horse world it that no matter what venue you can't please everyone. And FYI, I said new to mini horses, not horses.

BUT they are not "oversized" a you stated. Kay is refering to horses that are 34"-38" tall and they ARE miniature horses and they are not "oversized", they are the over division but they are not "oversized" miniature horses as they ARE still miniature horses. A miniature horse is a miniatures horse is a miniature horse.

I think many many years ago they prob could have combined the registrys but i think it is fair to say that is just not a good idea today. I am a supporter of AMHR but i also keep up to date with AMHA even though i do not show in that registry and only have one horse reg AMHA (he is also AMHR) as both registrys have a big impact obviously on our breed. I lean more toward AMHR bc i like the horses (both A and B size) and i also enjoy the shetlands (ASPC). I did attend an amha show two years ago and watched but i much prefer the amhr/aspc ring.

If you keep using over horses then eventually you may have a beautiful horse, but not a beautiful exceptional MINIATURE horse.

Do you realize that when they start measuring the AMHA horses as the new area that they will be .5"-1.5" shorter? What if those horses carry AMHA/AMHR papers, you can have a horse born that ends up measuring 33.75" and have it also measure 35" AMHR ....now you have yourself quite the problem eh? Your amha under horse is an amhr over horse

. I measured my 35" (amhr last hairs) gelding last night and he is just a hair under 34" AMHA measured at that new dip that magically appeared. You may find some of your double reg amhr/amha horses may make amhr over division measured at the last hairs

.

 

[Fred]

No matter what at the end of the day there will always be disagreements but it should be only to promote the miniature whether it is AMHA or AMHR. Some of us just have different ideas on what the miniature truly is. We do need both clubs and both clubs have their differences good and bad. I just happen to live in an area that is still 15 years behind in getting their brains together on issues like this and it shows in the show ring up here. There are good and bad people in BOTH organizations but I know one thing if I show it will be where I feel welcomed and have fun for my kids, my horses, and myself. Linda

 

[Mona]

Thanks John for such WISE WORDS

For those also that continue to say there is some kind of personal war between AMHA and AMHR , That is untrue ! As the war is not with the Registrys themselves but with the Members

I first hand know that when AMHA was in the trouble that John pointed out above ,, Larry Parnell was Pres. of AMHR and HE PERSONALLY CALLED THE PRESIDENT & The TREASURE OF AMHA and offered any help AMHR /ASPC could give to help them , NOT TO DESTROY them..... !! And that is a FACT AND YOU CAN TAKE IT TO THE BANK

The two Registry's are Great for each , we would all be in a world of hurt if one or the other went down.. Believe me , And this is from someone that was born and raised in Both Assoc.. And that sadly enough is now well over 50 YR.. (( Oh my I just really scared myself.. LOL !! ))

So heres to

to a GReat new Year of 08' and wishing eveyone happy times and wonderful foaling season...

VERY WELL SAID!!

 

[Buckskin gal]

Wouldn't it be nice to just appreciate what each registry is wanting to achieve. I, for one am happy that there are the two registries and I can see they haqve different goals but that is the nice thing about having the two and be able to make some choices. I personally am very happy to see AMHA wanting to achieve A breed standard for minis because it appears to me that AMHR is going the route of the miniature American Shetland look. This is fine for me because there is a choice. I think that AMHA is going to be striving for a look that many love while AMHR may be liking the look of American Shetlands in miniature....will this last, only time will tell but right now it is intersting and challenging for each registry to be doing what they think best and like. Let's stop comparing registeries and choose which type mini we like the best and be happy working toward our own goal. No person needs to take offense to someone else preferring the overs nor does anyone need to take ofense to anyone referring to their unders as the real miniatures...it is all words and how people think about their own minis. I can understand the people striving for the smallest most perfect horse because that is what our Standard calls for and I hope it is never forgotten. There is a difference in the Standards of perfection for the two registeries and the Standard for AMHA is not to have them "over" 34" so it is easy to see why they think anything over 34" is not a miniature....it isn't by their standard! So let each person work towards the Standard they choose and to heck with what another person thinks. JMHO Mary

 

[horsehug]

While I have often wished we had just one registry, I still support both AMHA and AMHR, and realize they have reasons for their differences. So I will continue to register my horses with both. I agree with this quote from Mary (Buckskin Gal).

"Let's stop comparing registeries and choose which type mini we like the best and be happy working toward our own goal".

I have always known what kind of horses "I" like, and continue to work towards breeding them.

Susan O.

 

[minie812]

You know it is really a shame that we have folks out there in the minature community that feel they have to put down someone else in order to make themselves feel better or whatever. Facts is as one of the posters before me in this thread said, both registires have respective strong points and respective weak points. OH!

As far as Tom is concerned he is a good guy and has served AMHA well in the past few years and I appreciate the work he has put in, I also am sure he will do a good job as the new Vice President of AMHA.

But I also know that the savior of AMHA were the folks that put up the money when things were not doing well several years ago and AMHA was basically bankrupt that are largely responsible for the improved situation. That goes for the financial committtee that put up the over 500,000.00 to bail AMHA out and the general membership that early registered horses and did all the other things that were required to make it all happen from a cash flow standpoint. Those folks, members and finacial loaners alike are the folks I tip my hat to when ever I get the chance.

It goes to prove out my point that anything can be accomplished as long as we all work together. Yes we may have differences, but none are to large for us as a group of decicated miniature horse lovers.

Thanks John for such WISE WORDS

For those also that continue to say there is some kind of personal war between AMHA and AMHR , That is untrue ! As the war is not with the Registrys themselves but with the Members

I first hand know that when AMHA was in the trouble that John pointed out above ,, Larry Parnell was Pres. of AMHR and HE PERSONALLY CALLED THE PRESIDENT & The TREASURE OF AMHA and offered any help AMHR /ASPC could give to help them , NOT TO DESTROY them..... !! And that is a FACT AND YOU CAN TAKE IT TO THE BANK

The two Registry's are Great for each , we would all be in a world of hurt if one or the other went down.. Believe me , And this is from someone that was born and raised in Both Assoc.. And that sadly enough is now well over 50 YR.. (( Oh my I just really scared myself.. LOL !! ))

So heres to

to a GReat new Year of 08' and wishing eveyone happy times and wonderful foaling season...

...HERE...HERE!

All I can say is ...I agree

 

[RockRiverTiff]

Wouldn't it be nice to just appreciate what each registry is wanting to achieve. I, for one am happy that there are the two registries and I can see they haqve different goals but that is the nice thing about having the two and be able to make some choices. I personally am very happy to see AMHA wanting to achieve A breed standard for minis because it appears to me that AMHR is going the route of the miniature American Shetland look. This is fine for me because there is a choice. I think that AMHA is going to be striving for a look that many love while AMHR may be liking the look of American Shetlands in miniature....will this last, only time will tell but right now it is intersting and challenging for each registry to be doing what they think best and like. Let's stop comparing registeries and choose which type mini we like the best and be happy working toward our own goal. No person needs to take offense to someone else preferring the overs nor does anyone need to take ofense to anyone referring to their unders as the real miniatures...it is all words and how people think about their own minis. I can understand the people striving for the smallest most perfect horse because that is what our Standard calls for and I hope it is never forgotten. There is a difference in the Standards of perfection for the two registeries and the Standard for AMHA is not to have them "over" 34" so it is easy to see why they think anything over 34" is not a miniature....it isn't by their standard! So let each person work towards the Standard they choose and to heck with what another person thinks. JMHO Mary

Thank you for a terrific post! It's nice to see someone being honest but inoffensive. I have greatly enjoyed reading this thread and all other threads regarding the subject, and I am happy to see that as the changes sink in, people's comments are becoming less emotional and more thoughtful.

 

[Echo Acres]

I guess when I posted this topic I didn't mean to "bash" either registry, I would actually like to see both of them thrive. I have shown only AMHR, but not because I don't like AMHA just haven't really had the time or money to do more. There are several things I like about AMHA and several I like about AMHR.

What I was actually trying to state is that it just seems like both clubs are after each other and I think that is sad. It is making it harder for people that want to participate in both to do so.

Yes it is all about personal preference. I tend to like the smaller minis as a personal preference in looks, but yes even in AMHA around here the taller ones are winning. So unfortunately I have bought the taller A division horses and a now a couple B horses to be able to compete. I don't mind the shetlands being part of AMHR, but do feel they are taking over a little too much.

I am never going to like everything about a certain registry and neither is anyone else. Just would like both of them to think of what the majority of their members want and vote that way, not the way a select few think.

I thought it was great that AMHA had the meeting webcasted. That is a huge step for the future and hope AMHR follows in their footsteps. It would be nice to also be able to vote that way and then maybe they would get a better idea of what the membership wants. Not everyone can get away from work, horses or has the finances to attend the meetings.

I appreciate all the feedback. I know there are strong feelings from people who have been members for a long time and think everyone has a right to their opinion.

 

[bingo]

I have been reading these threads with great interest. I think the key here is that the standard of perfection, the goal AMHA breeders were striving for has now changed. A 35 + inch mini stallion or mare can now legally be AMHA breeding stock that will now according to AMHA and the new rules measure in at 34 inches or less. This will has a long lasting effect on the AMHA registry as well as breeding programs. As of last week the future of AMHA will forever be changed. It doesn't mean it is a change for the worse though.