A thought i had regarding the amha rule change

[Anne ABC]

OH! I am still in shock, I believe, that this rule was even discussed at length by AMHA members much less passed. But, all that is another matter at this point.

We do limited shows both AMHA and AMHR with "A" size horses so this rule change does not effect us personally to any degree as none of our horses are boarderline.

However, it does effect our opinion of the registry we have so proudly endorsed and felt pride in being a part of. We felt AMHA had always strived to be set apart when it came to size. We felt the goal of AMHA breeders was to produce the best quality SMALL (ie:34" and under) miniature horse possible.

Now they want me to try to produce the best quality WHAT SIZE AMHA miniature horse available?

This is all just to crazy for me so I have just been reading all the comments over the past week and wondering where we go from here. Trying to make some sense of it all.

I guess my question is what do we, as concerned members, do now? Do we just sit back and allow "those 60 that are" to take over and do as they please or do we stand up and voice our opinions where they will be heard? And, how would we go about doing that?

These discussions of "how did this happen" and "who managed to sneak this rule by" can go on forever but that is not repairing the great damage that has been done to our entire association.

IT IS AS IF OUR ASSOCIATIONS ENTIRE REASON FOR BEING HAS BEEN DESTROYED AND TAKEN AWAY FROM US! HOW DO WE FIX IT??

 

[sfmini]

I can't believe I am trying this again, but I guess I just don't know when to quit trying to get this point across.

If you want to change how the vote is done, do something about it. It is very simple.

Find out from AMHA what the objections are to vote by ballot/online/etc. I know Tony Greaves is an excellent resource as he is fully aware of all of the objections.

Read your rule book so you understand what needs to be done, and what changes need to be made and where.

Write up and submit the proposed changes.

Mail the change proposals to the AMHA.

I know one objection is that after you have the opportunity to hear the perspectives of others from other parts of the country/world, you WILL change your mind about certain proposals. This has nothing to do with intelligence, it has to do with not having the same situation/perspective/needs as folks in other areas.

Whatever the proposal for change is, you do need to address this concern. In the internet age, this isn't too hard, a members only discussion forum would suffice.

Another concern is how to prevent a wealthy person 'buying' people's votes or memberships and influencing votes. This has happened in the past, the people actually bought memberships and paid for people to get to the convention to influence the vote. Yes, I know this is not too likely any more, but did happen as recently as a few years ago.... Changing to a mail or online vote will make this more cost effective to those kinds of people.

The ONLY people who are going to do the necessary work to make this change are the ones who want it. Those who do attend the meetings don't really want it, and aren't going to do any work to change it. It is up to you folks if you do really want the change, and it does NOT require that you attend a single meeting, just your time and postage.

 

[gvpalominominis]

I agree with several additional posts here.... some valid and good points.

People complain about the decisions that are made for us, yet we do not participate in the events that preclude those decisions. I am unable to attend out of state meetings (let alone local ones due to work and lack of barn help) for many reasons, as many others cannot either. Heck... I can't even get to the grocery store regularly... LOL I try to be a rule follower and don't care for politics, especially dirty politics, but I also don't know how to stop it from happening. You step on the 'big guys' toes and I hear you could get blackballed!

Its also been stated that we want a 'closed registry' and be a REAL breed, not just a height breed. Even in dogs if a dog goes over its height restriction for show, they don't PULL their papers.... they just can't show. They still can be used as breeding stock. If you have two registered parents... if you get a fluke oversized horse... even at a fixed measurement location as opposed to a floating one... IMO you should still have a registerable horse. So are we a 'BREED' or just a little horse registry?

There's too many breeders out there that should not be throwing stones and may want to take a measuring stick to their own back yard. How many breeders with large brood bands (100 head or more) have measured those 'taller' looking ones recently? Or even those stallions standing next to them that were once World Grand Champions. Lets check the records to see how many registrations have been voluntarily turned in because they measured out. : )

I don't believe I've ever heard in the 8 years I've been in minis someone saying ... "Oh my gosh... Baby Doll (fictious name) just turned 6yrs and is in foal to World Grand Champion He's A Winner (also fictious name) that I paid a stud fee of $2,000 for and I measured her today at 34.5".... I better have her officially measured to see if they need to take her papers away. I'll just have to wait 5 years to see if the foal measures in to hardship.." ... that is of course, IF the registry is still open.

Sorry... couldn't help myself... gotta get back to work... quit distracting me.... LOL LOL LOL

 

[Cathy_H]

People complain about the decisions that are made for us, yet we do not participate in the events that preclude those decisions. I am unable to attend out of state meetings

.... Several years ago Lee & I did go to a national meeting because it was being held in our city.... A lot of us locals showed up & voted ......................... After we locals had gone home, the out of towners decided that "something was not exactly right with one situation".

They revoted & changed to exactly what the locals did not want..l When something like this happens, yes it turns you against wasting your time to go to other meetings..............................................................................

The only real remedy to this whole fiasco is to simply CONTROL the cheating! PUT A STOP TO IT! PUNISH those that think they are above following the rules that are set for EVERYONE

.. So simple - why do those in control NOT understand this! OH! OH!

 

[Margo_C-T]

Jody, I do want to recognize, applaud, and state publically that I am appreciative of your efforts and responses. As far as I can tell, you are about the ONLY AMHA Regional Director who has risen to the occasion to offer explanations and/or advice/help when issues such as this recent (and MOST IMPORTANT) one arise and are being discussed on the (VERY VALUABLE RESOURCE!) of this Forum-and you have my admiration and thanks for doing so!

I want to state that when all this came to light, the first thing I did was to try to email AMHA for the 2008 RULEBOOK; the link on the home page that says, "email us" for a rulebook, did not then, and as of this AM, still did not, work---NOT JODY'S FAULT, of course, but I admit to feeling that this was something of an 'indicator' of deeper problems at AMHA....anyway,I did choose someone off the show division email list, and sent my email to them, but I have to wonder if it 'went where it should have' for me to get my new Rulebook. When it arrives, you can BELIEVE I will be reading it(I have ALWAYS read my Rulebooks, BTW; can probably quote more correctly from them than most), and will be going LINE BY LINE on the requirements for submitting rule/Bylaw changes.

What concerns me is the frequent admonishment that anything submitted must be 'correct'; that you must 'dot every i and cross every t'. I have NO problem with THAT; I know how to spell, punctuate, and contruct a sentence--but I would like a further explanation of what constitutes "proper wording" for any such submission. How is a layman to know what particular language fulfills AMHA's requirements, both legal and otherwise? It seems to me that over the years, I have seen MANY instances where reasonable-sounding proposals were turned down, sometimes again and again, with a claim of 'incorrect wording' and, 'sorry, the committee can't change a word of any submission; too bad'; so, are we supposed to have to consult a lawyer as to 'correct' wording/language for a submission? Or, could this just be a convenient way to put off and discourage such efforts--especially from some 'nobody' member? Sorry, but I do not think I am the only AMHA member who has ever had such a perception....I guess what I am really asking is whether there is a SPECIFIC format that any of us desiring to make such a submission should be made aware of, and if so, could you, or whoever KNOWS it, share with all of us?

I have known Tony for a good long time, and will certainly be happy to contact him for his insight. I actually agree that it is important to do, not just talk, when something is truly important to you; I also think that 'doing' should not be seen as a near-impossible task!

Respectfully,

Margo

AKA Margaret(Margo) Cox-Townsend

AMHA Member since 1985, Lifetime Member for around 15-16 of those years

Once FIRMLY committed to AMHA

 

[nightflight]

Margo,

Two rule changes that I have helped with are in review by committee right now. If you would like some help feel free to e-mail me and I can double check your work. I also have coming a number of the 2008 rule books for our club members and interested parties in NM.

Regards,

 

[sfmini]

That is a tough one, but basically make sure that in your mind you see your proposal as something that can be supported in court, defendable to the best of your ability and enforceable. Also, a note on the form with contact information so that the committee can contact you if they have a question or want to discuss your proposal. I promise you that if you submit a proposal to Rules and Regs and we have a question, or can't pass it through, you will be informed of that and the reason why, and if we can work something out over the phone I will attempt to call you.

One thing to be very careful of, and how the measuring items got killed before is if you propose something to Rules and Regs that is in conflict with a by law, it will be killed. You need to submit the bylaw change with a note identifying which rule(s) would need changed. That becomes housekeeping, but cannot go the same way from rule to bylaw.

I do feel that the committees are failing the membership by not contacting submitters to tell them the problem or attempt to contact them to correct things to pass them through.

Also, please let me know exactly what link isn't working, from what page, click on what and I will make sure it gets fixed.

 

[Boinky]

I would think this day in age they could get a hold of the submitter via phone conference, teleconference ect. You'd think they would make that an option for those submitting propsals/changes ect so they have an active role in how this "bill" was submitted and if it's not worded clearly enough it can be done on the spot without having it shot down and then having to wait a whole year to fix any small problems ect.

 

[Magic]

I'd like to chime in here and add my appreciation for all the effort Jody goes through to help all of us on the forum to understand the way things work inside of AMHA. Thank you!!

 

[gvpalominominis]

.... Several years ago Lee & I did go to a national meeting because it was being held in our city.... A lot of us locals showed up & voted ......................... After we locals had gone home, the out of towners decided that "something was not exactly right with one situation".

They revoted & changed to exactly what the locals did not want..l When something like this happens, yes it turns you against wasting your time to go to other meetings..............................................................................

Cathy_H... I was making a general statement... not directed at those who DO participate... : ) I included myself in the non contributors due to my schedule... so I feel I don't really have the right to complain and that was part of my point, but I did want to express my opinion to the subject...

I also appreciate those who take the time out of their, I'm sure busy schedules, to speak a voice. When you are not involved or present during discussions at meetings, you do not always get to hear all the reasoning and messages behind the decisions that are made. Any decision that is made about such a sensitive subject, is not going to please everybody. But I also feel that when an organization is so geographically widespread with its members as the AMHA, that a mail in voting process by the membership, should determine the outcome of such an important decision. I also believe that there could be more important issues at hand that could use the energy that this subject has received. I'd like to just deal with it and move on.... give it a try, see if it makes a difference and address issues if they arise.

Okay... now back to stall cleaning... just came in for a drink of water...LOL

 

[Songcatcher]

Also, please let me know exactly what link isn't working, from what page, click on what and I will make sure it gets fixed.

It was the email link on the home page for ordering a Rulebook. I tried yesterday and it wouldn't connect, but tried it just now and it went through. Apparently they fixed it.

 

[Leeana]

Just one last thought and i promise i will go to bed lol ....

I've seen allot of people say, if this is aloud to go on then i better be able to get amha papers back (yes- you should and rightfully so) on some of my horses that went over. Does that really make you any better the the cheaters in the first place? Now yes i know if it goes on, its a rule and a rule is a rule but really, your just going to be making yourself out to be a second generation cheater and using this to your advantage. I cant think of the right word but "cheater" sounds a little rougher then i want to use. Do i make any sense? I guess if you feel so strongly agianst something, then why would use it to your advantage?

Leeana

 

[Boinky]

What i want to know is truly how many people are going to pay the big price to hardship the horses?

 

[tagalong]

Jody - I do admire you. People get mad, rage and rant, often ignore what you say and complain that they do not have answers when you have already given them those answers - it goes on and on. And you persevere. You correct misinformation - and many do not notice - or do not care. And yet you persevere. You offer solutions and help - and all too often it is simply tossed aside or sneered at. And yet you persevere. You deserve a medal, methinks.

What bugs me about a lot of this new AMHA ire - is that we are simply ignoring the measuring issue as a whole.

AMHR has had its share of measuring uproars as well. When a horse can be a National Champion Over one year and then a National Champion Under the next year... (not referring to any specific horse or faulting any horse - just using the example...) then it is a bit of a HUH? moment. When AMHR horses can go up and down in classes as easily as AMHA horses... it is only a horror if it happens in AMHA? You can bet that AMHR is not about to declare the top of the withers as the measuring point - and yet AMHA is faulted and villified by many for not doing so....

Both registries are at fault for the measuring nonsense that has gone on - and will continue to go on...

 

[Minimor]

tagalong--I guess you missed Belinda's post on an earlier thread, where she stated that AMHR IS considering that very thing....a rule change to the top of the wither. Only time will tell if this comes to a vote (I'm quite sure it will) and if it will pass. But at least in the meantime AMHR hasn't done anything as silly as changing the measurement point to a lower spot to make bigger horses smaller. Hopefully AMHR won't follow suit on this one, and I really don't think they will.

 

[Anne ABC]

I can't believe I am trying this again, but I guess I just don't know when to quit trying to get this point across.

If you want to change how the vote is done, do something about it. It is very simple.

Find out from AMHA what the objections are to vote by ballot/online/etc. I know Tony Greaves is an excellent resource as he is fully aware of all of the objections.

Read your rule book so you understand what needs to be done, and what changes need to be made and where.

Write up and submit the proposed changes.

Mail the change proposals to the AMHA.

I know one objection is that after you have the opportunity to hear the perspectives of others from other parts of the country/world, you WILL change your mind about certain proposals. This has nothing to do with intelligence, it has to do with not having the same situation/perspective/needs as folks in other areas.

Whatever the proposal for change is, you do need to address this concern. In the internet age, this isn't too hard, a members only discussion forum would suffice.

Another concern is how to prevent a wealthy person 'buying' people's votes or memberships and influencing votes. This has happened in the past, the people actually bought memberships and paid for people to get to the convention to influence the vote. Yes, I know this is not too likely any more, but did happen as recently as a few years ago.... Changing to a mail or online vote will make this more cost effective to those kinds of people.

The ONLY people who are going to do the necessary work to make this change are the ones who want it. Those who do attend the meetings don't really want it, and aren't going to do any work to change it. It is up to you folks if you do really want the change, and it does NOT require that you attend a single meeting, just your time and postage.

Thank you for this good information and I for one plan to follow up on your suggestions. I feel a lack of communication is a large part of the problem here. True it is mainly our own faults because the information was available we just didn't take time to read it or if we read it (we) I said to myself "oh that would never pass" ha!! Guess who was wrong?

I really like the members only discussion forum idea. That would allow for discussion from all sides and views on the topic among the people most affected.

I wonder if it would be possible to set up a voting program where members could vote either online or by mail? I know some folks are still not using computers that much.

Don't see why not, I think anything is possible just look at this new rule change on measuring, huh?

 

[gvpalominominis]

Jody -

AMHR has had its share of measuring uproars as well. When a horse can be a National Champion Over one year and then a National Champion Under the next year... (not referring to any specific horse or faulting any horse - just using the example...) then it is a bit of a HUH? moment. When AMHR horses can go up and down in classes as easily as AMHA horses... it is only a horror if it happens in AMHA? You can bet that AMHR is not about to declare the top of the withers as the measuring point - and yet AMHA is faulted and villified by many for not doing so....

Both registries are at fault for the measuring nonsense that has gone on - and will continue to go on...

Here's how that can happen.... a yearling or two year old goes over its age height limit and wins National Grand Champion Over. As a 3 yr old now qualifies in the under division height limit and wins National Grand Champion Under.... Other things can happen regarding the referenced scenario 'LEGITIMATELY’ that I won't go into, but maybe people who don't know ALL the facts of a situation, should not make judgment. But you can probably read anything as fact in the 'National Inquirer' right next to the I Birthed An Alien Baby story... LOL LOL Rumors are an ugly hurtful thing, remember that.

I've had my own horses either by their mood at the time (dancing around, stiffen up, act up, won't stand etc.), the swift measurement of the steward and have be measured 2 times, the first time measuring over, the next where it should be.. under. Or never get a true measurement and had to show over but the next show behaved and measured under! and so the rumor begins..... It could be ADDITIONAL HAIR GROWTH... maybe the horse had it's mane accidentally shaved off and had to show in the Over Div! My point... don't draw your own conclusions without all the facts and don't label people as "cheaters" just because you heard it through the grapevine or read it somewhere.

I try to put myself in the other person's shoes, what if certain powerful people were saying I did something wrong, maybe for political or financial gain... when I really hadn't... does that make them right, just because they said so? Or because of their power, they're able to call the shots... what a helpless feeling that must be. Then I ask myself... how would I feel if everyone believed them instead of the truth. I like to make my own decisions... from facts and original sources.... I've said this before and have found this to be true in my lifetime and with dealing with the public for over 20 years... people would rather believe the bad things and rumors about others than seek the truth or make their own decisons. How many times do you hear the GOOD things people do as compared to rumors and the bad things people were said to have done? (ok... stepping down off that platform... lol)

 

[sfmini]

Yep, my under gelding is an AMHR national top ten OVER 2 year old. Now under as a mature horse.

 

[Field-of-Dreams]

My gelding is one that flucuates. He is 34.25" on his papers... but on any given day with any given measurer he can be an A or a B.... and I am not one that stretches his neck and smushes his back to make him shorter. He measured- legally- at Nationals at 34.25 and showed in the B division against all those "monster" big guys!

Lucy