A Personal Plea to Those Who Breed Tiny Ones

[StarRidgeAcres]

Maybe I'm just having a bad day. I don't know. But I've really had it with visiting websites where people are OBVIOUSLY breeding tiny horses JUST BECAUSE THEY ARE TINY with NO regard for conformation!

Folks, did you ever wonder why the tiny horses get a bad rap??? I personally am trying to IMPROVE the impression of the tiny miniture but there sure are a TON of folks working against me!

Am I perfect? Heck no! Are my horses perfect? Heck no! But open your eyes people!

Here are a few questions to ask yourself:

Is the neck of your 27" mare thicker than her hip is deep? If the answer is yes, she shouldn't be used for making more thick necked, weak hipped minis!

Is the back of your 29" stallion 10" longer than the length of his legs? If the answer is yes, stop using him for breeding!

Is the neck of your horse shorter than 5"? If the answer is yes, stop using that horse for making more 5" necked horses! (Hint: When the horse's neck is thicker than it is long, there is a problem!)

Does your horse have an undershot jaw and knobby knees? If the answer is yes, don't breed more of them!

I get so tired of hearing about how poorly conformed the tiny horses are. But then I go looking at sites where people tout their horses tiny HEIGHT and I see why people think the way they do. It's not just about height folks, everything else needs to be tiny as well or your just breeding...yes, I'm going to say it...dwarves and dwarfy characteristics.

I can NOT express enough how important it is to open your eyes and look around at other breeders and what they are producing. And go read the Dwarfism Forum; there is a TON of info there including pictures. If your breeding stock resembles the examples on that forum, STOP breeding them!

OK. Putting my flame suit on.

And I realize that many of the people I'm complaining about aren't even reading this forum.

And lastly, I'm also sick of the excuses like "it's a free country and they are my horses I can breed what I want." True. Doesn't make it right.

OK, one more lastly.

I know there are poorly conformed minis of all heights, but goodness, there sure is an abundance of them in the under 30" category. Geesh

 

[miniaddiction]

Gosh I sure do have to agree with you here Parm.

 

[Calekio]

...Where i am right now there seems to be a real problem with unreg'd, poor quility entires........ liturally on my doorstep....

I have 3 poor quility ponies... 2 i brought/rescued... but one when i got him the buyer told me he'd make a lovely little stallion... he is about 30", refined... nicely marked... and dwarfy.. needless to say he is now a gelding!

I'll admit to breeding something with poor confirmation this year (in the sense foal came out like that... i didn't breed from a poor quility animal..)... i will openly admit and put this guy on display if someone asked me to.. as in my eyes i'm not ashamed of him and have learned (i hope) from my mistakes.. mum and dad were both lovely and previous foals have been too... but first time put mare & stallion together and out pops locket who is all wrong... needless to say i won't be repeating that cross no more... stallion has actually been gelded now for this reason and a few more.. and mare is due for retirement all the same as she looks about 10 years older than she actually is this winter! So i think (hope) i've done the right thing there... (as have been told i should have shot the foal and kept quiet about him as him coming out wrong with ruin my good reputation.....)

 

[StarRidgeAcres]

So i think (hope) i've done the right thing there... (as have been told i should have shot the foal and kept quiet about him as him coming out wrong with ruin my good reputation.....)

Believe me, people like you who CARE about your horses are NOT the problem. Anyone, yes, ANYONE, can have something they didn't expect from crossing two quality animals. But those people, and my goodness there seems to be an over-abundance of them, that are BASING their breeding programs on poorly conformed horses at best and down-right, full-blown, no question about dwarfs should be ashamed. These people do NOT care about their animals or the betterment of the breed. They care about the money they will get from unssuspecting, uninformed buyers.

One doen't have to look very hard to find websites where the entire breeding stock that is advertised big as day with pictures, pedigrees, past foals, etc. is FULL of these types of minis. I'm just asking them to rethink what they're doing and

stop it.

 

[nbark]

I don't think YOU are having the bad day. Minis seem to becoming a disposable entity among people who do not have a clue. They think small is cute, no matter how awful the jaw is, how crooked the legs are or how many other conformation flaws the horse has. And it is true that anyone can end up with a dwarf. A friend of mine bought a pretty little stallion, nice conformation and bred to one of her brood mares who had always produced nice foals and out came a dwarf. Needless to say the stallion was gelded immediately, knowing that her mare had had 10 normal foals previously. This is where the difference lies. Breeding dwarf minis and minis with conformation flaws puts you in the same catagory as a PUPPY MILL, only now you have a MINI MILL. Unfortunately there is no way of preventing this other than education of people who are willing to listen and learn. Most of the Mini Mill people are in to it for just the money, but they could sell QUALITY stock for much more than they get for their mill stock, but no lightbulb goes on there because they don't want to spend the money to get the quality to produce quality. So around and around we go. If we want to help put a stop to the Mini Mills, we need to expose them and urge people not to buy from them.

Keep on the good work of spreading the news, I am right behind you on this one.

 

[Connie P]

Parmela,

I would LOVE to breed my little 28" mare Whirlwind to your Merlin. I sure can envision one gorgeous tiny foal coming from that cross. Too bad you live so darn far away from me!

 

[krissy3]

would have to agree...stop with the breeding...we have enough already , lets take care of the ones we have first.

 

[funnybunny]

Parmela, I think the problem is that some people are just breeding mini horses. You are breeding to produce quality minis to show.

Some people do not have a clue about conformation and cannot "see" that legs are too short or necks are thick. They just don't comprehend that. They may never catch on.

People wanting to show and produce miniature "horses" strive to produce them to look like big horses scaled down to a smaller size. Many photos of nice minis standing alone in a pasture, you would SWEAR it was a big horse and not a small one. That's what we'd like.

When you see photos of the other type, they look like short legged, thick ponies or dwarfs. But some people just go for "small" and not "quality."

 

[Teresa]

In my opinion, the breeding of miniature horses with bad conformation is not limited to the small horse.....and it is not the 30" and under miniature that produces all the dwarves. A dwarf is small but a small horse is not a dwarf.

My focus is for the conformation first but the goal is for an under 30" horse. I did not breed any this year, and only had two foals this year. One will probably be under 30" and his conformation is great. I do plan on gelding him because my grandson is in love with him and would like to show him. The other one is a filly and will go way over 30"

I have a stallion that is 29 3/4" and was National top 10 stallion and in color in AMHR.

Please don't attack all those that love the 30" and under horse. It is unfair to group all farms based on some that you have seen on the web. Let's look at the problem as a whole..........there are too many breedings of horses of all sizes that aren't breeding quality.

As president of the SmallestHorse Group, I would like you to visit the websites of our members. Our goal is to promote the smallest horse for the very reasons that you have stated here.........lots of misconception.

This is not posted to start an argument and not intended to flame.

 

[Little Indian Acres]

Parmela,
I would LOVE to breed my little 28" mare Whirlwind to your Merlin. I sure can envision one gorgeous tiny foal coming from that cross. Too bad you live so darn far away from me!

Connie, I love your mare!

 

[Leeana]

Parmela,

I have always thought that you had some of the nicest tiny's

I spend allot of time on the breeders connect just visiting websites and i think some people are breeding with the breed in mind, some people are breeding with THEMSELVES in mind. I do enjoy the under 30" horses, really i do, but i really like the 32"-38"....actually you can take that all the way up to 46"

.

If only we had more Parmela's in the world

 

[Minimor]

Please don't attack all those that love the 30" and under horse. It is unfair to group all farms based on some that you have seen on the web. Let's look at the problem as a whole..........there are too many breedings of horses of all sizes that aren't breeding quality.

She did not attack all those that love the 30" and under horses....the comments were IMO directed at those who are breeding for nothing but small size...those that are looking at small size without are consideration at all for correct conformation.

 

[Connie P]

Thank you Little Indian Acres! I love her too! I want her to marry Parmela's Little Kings Merlin and have a gorgeous foal. I am going to work on that!

 

[wildoak]

Well, I had a long and thoughtful post that my computer just ate........

Starting over -

While I agree with you that there is still room for improvement and there are still people breeding and promoting badly conformed little horses, if you look back 10-15 years at what was winning National Championships (not that there weren't some great ones too!) and what was bringing good money in the sales (anything small and breedable with four legs and a tail in some cases), it's apparent how far the breed has come in a relatively short amount of time. I am blown away by some of the little horses I see now who are so proportional and so correct - we have 28" and under horses with beautiful little heads, slender necks, short backs and respectable rear ends, something that would have been a rarity not so long ago.

There are "breeders" who don't care and won't ever care about this as long as what they produce is "cute". Such is the nature of horse breeding, and all we can do is continue to educate and be ruthless in evaluating our own horses LOL. I agree with Teresa, there are all sizes who are poorly conformed, but it is most noticeable in the smallest horses when they are out of proportion. One other thing to remember with the very small horses is that how they are photographed /presented can make a bigger visual difference. I've seen horses advertised, someone spent good money paying for a magazine ad with a picture taken from above a little horse. Doesn't matter how nice he was, he looked like his legs were 6" long! You have to get on their level, just as judges need to be evaluating them on their level!

Sorry I digressed

, just a pet peeve....

Jan

 

[Riverdance]

We have had this kind of discussion before on this forum. It is not just the tiny horse that is being bred poorly,(though there seem to be many very poor quality very little ones) it is all of the Miniature horses. (big horses too)

I have said over and over again, do not breed your horses if you do not know what good conformation looks like. Too often I see people post pictures of poor quality horses they just bought. That is fine and good if they are just going to be pets, but many of them are purchased for breeding.

Even worse, others say what a beautiful horse it is. How is anyone supposed to learn?

People get upset when I say you need to show some horses before breeding. Why? Because if you are not out in the show ring, you are not learning what a good horse should look like. It takes some people years to really see conformation. I am not saying that all breeding horses should be show horses or winning show horses, but I am saying that they should all be good enough that they could be shown.

A couple of years ago I had a mini yearling colt out at our horse Expo. I had numerous big horse people comment about him, saying he was the first little horse they had seen that actually looked like a smaller version of a true horse and not a frumpy, poor quality, tiny horse.(or tiny pony) He was a nice horse, but not one of my best ones. He was more of a performance horse than halter horse. But still nicely put together. How sad is that, that we have so many large horse breeders feel that way.

I am sure that I will be flamed for this, but please guys, we all profess to love this breed. If you do so, then you should want to make it the best we all can! Just making babies is NOT what this breed needs.

 

[sharpllook]

I like most of you get sick of people telling what should be bred and what not to be bred.

Case/point. Growing up we had purchased a ugly paint mare. She was not a show horse nor would she win a halter class with a group of draft horses.

In the forum she would be what you are trying to eliminate.

She was the sweetest mare that any kid could have asked to teach them to ride. And Teach she did, the ol Paint mare when through more kids and chased more cows than most have seen.

I have mini NATIONAL Champions that are the biggest wenches but boy are they "pretty" in the ring......

What I am saying is.......... Every Horse has an "opportunity" to be great in their own realm.

As for the 'OL Paint mare, She was never sold, died right here on the place.

Makes one want to direct their comments to their own barn. JUST THINK.

 

[Riverdance]

I like most of you get sick of people telling what should be bred and what not to be bred.
Case/point. Growing up we had purchased a ugly paint mare. She was not a show horse nor would she win a halter class with a group of draft horses.

In the forum she would be what you are trying to eliminate.

She was the sweetest mare that any kid could have asked to teach them to ride. And Teach she did, the ol Paint mare when through more kids and chased more cows than most have seen.

I have mini NATIONAL Champions that are the biggest wenches but boy are they "pretty" in the ring......

What I am saying is.......... Every Horse has an "opportunity" to be great in their own realm.

As for the 'OL Paint mare, She was never sold, died right here on the place.

Makes one want to direct their comments to their own barn. JUST THINK.

There are many not so great horses out there that make great pets. But, they should not be bred. That is all I am saying. Your mare was one of the lucky ones, but many are not. Just go to an auction sometime and see all of the unwanted horses. Some in the worst of condition.

There is not one horse out there that does not have faults and when breeding, one should be aware of the faults of the sire and dam and not continue to breed the same faults. If your sire has the same faults as the dam, they should not be bred together.

If one does not attend shows to learn, then one has no idea how to improve their breeding program. This does not mean that you have to show, but at least go to the shows to learn. Ask questions, put your hands on a good horse, look for the hip, shoulder layback etc. Looking at conformation photos is not going to teach you anything. Dwarfs are a part of this business, it kills me too to see someone show off a new foal as their next herd sire and it is so obviously a dwarf. Minimnal dwarfs do not have the classic problems a regular dwarf has. How many people on this forum can tell the difference?

Also, even the best sire and dam can produce poor quality foals, so why purposely breed them? There are too many poor quality horses out there with no homes as it is, why continue to make more?

If you have the urg to breed and not the intereste to learn about better conformation, just look on line for all of the rescued horses that have been starved or have died of starvation. Do we really need to produce more?

One should also be aware of personalities in their horses. If they have a sire or dam who has a rotten personality, then do not breed it. Just because your show horse was nasty, does not mean they all are, and he should not be bred. No matter how beautiful he may be. There is more to a good horse than just conformation. In the same token, a really ugly horse can be nasty too.

I am not telling anyone not to breed, just to breed responsibly. I will be the first to point out the faults my horses have, and what I am doing to improve them. I can not do this sitting at home. I go to the AMHA World show each year and ask questions and talk to top breeders. One is never too old to learn.

 

[funnybunny]

Most of you have been saying the same thing in different words ---conformation is key, no matter what size.

(And yes, I've owned really ugly ones before also and have loved them and they worked cattle and did reining or barrel racing and were wonderful horses, so don't go off on me bashing ugly horses.

I can love nearly any horse for one reason or the other.)

I am going to copy below the Standard of Perfection which comes from my AMHA Rule Book. My guess is that some people who breed have never bothered to read this at all. Some breeders probably never even opened the rule book. My other hunch is that some people who have read this standard, maybe several times, do not really understand in their mind's eye what it means. (not that even the judges have the same opinions of how this reads, but that is a story for another day)

It takes many years sometimes to get an idea of what conformation really is, what angles you are looking for, what size and shapes underlying bone structure should be.

I was lucky that, when I was about 10,(about a century ago), I was in a horse club (big horses) which encouraged youngsters to learn conformation. We had to take tests on names of the bones and conformation according to the standard of perfection of that horse breed club. We had practice shows where we had to answer questions about conformation and even proper tack and grooming. We had practice shows where we had to "judge" and then our placements were rated.

[SIZE=12pt]I really applaud the area clubs who have good youth programs and help THE FUTURE BREEDERS learn about correct conformation and horsemanship. [/SIZE]

Education is important.

[SIZE=18pt]Standard of Perfection[/SIZE]



General Impression: A small, sound, well-balanced horse, possessing the correct conformation characteristics required of most breeds, Refinement and femininity in the mare. Boldness and masculinity in the stallion - the general impression should be one of symmetry, strength, agility and alertness. Since the breed objective is the smallest possible perfect horse, preference in judging shall be given the smaller horse, other characteristics being approximately equal.



Size: Must measure not more than 34 inches at the withers, at the last hairs of the mane.



Head: In proportion to length of neck and body. Broad forehead with large prominent eyes set wide apart. Comparatively short distance between eyes and muzzle. Profile straight or slightly concave below the eyes. Large nostrils. Clean, refined. Even bite.



Ears: Medium in size. Pointed. Carried alertly with tips curving slightly inward.



Throat-Latch: Clean and well defined allowing ample flexion at the poll.



Neck: Flexible, lengthy, in proportion to body and type and blending smoothly into the withers.



Shoulder: Long, sloping and well angulated, allowing a free-swinging stride and alert head/neck carriage. Well-muscled forearm.



Body: Well muscled with ample bone and substance. Balanced and well proportioned. Short back and loins in relation to length of underline. Smooth and generally level top-line. Deep girth and flank. Trim barrel.



Hindquarters: Long, well-muscled hip, thigh and gaskin. Highest point of croup to be same height as withers, Tail set neither excessively high or low, but smoothly rounding off rump.



Legs: Set straight and parallel when viewed from front or back. Straight, true and squarely set, when viewed from the side with hooves pointing directly ahead. Pasterns sloping about 45 degrees and blending smoothly, with no change of angle from the hooves to the ground. Hooves to be round and compact. Trimmed as short as practicable for an unshod horse. Smooth, fluid gait in motion.



Color: Any color or marking pattern, and any eye color, is equally acceptable. The hair should be lustrous and silky.

 

[Riverdance]

Most of you have been saying the same thing in different words ---conformation is key, no matter what size.

(And yes, I've owned really ugly ones before also and have loved them and they worked cattle and did reining or barrel racing and were wonderful horses, so don't go off on me bashing ugly horses.

I can love nearly any horse for one reason or the other.)

I am going to copy below the Standard of Perfection which comes from my AMHA Rule Book. My guess is that some people who breed have never bothered to read this at all. Some breeders probably never even opened the rule book. My other hunch is that some people who have read this standard, maybe several times, do not really understand in their mind's eye what it means. (not that even the judges have the same opinions of how this reads, but that is a story for another day)

It takes many years sometimes to get an idea of what conformation really is, what angles you are looking for, what size and shapes underlying bone structure should be.

I was lucky that, when I was about 10,(about a century ago), I was in a horse club (big horses) which encouraged youngsters to learn conformation. We had to take tests on names of the bones and conformation according to the standard of perfection of that horse breed club. We had practice shows where we had to answer questions about conformation and even proper tack and grooming. We had practice shows where we had to "judge" and then our placements were rated.

[SIZE=12pt]I really applaud the area clubs who have good youth programs and help THE FUTURE BREEDERS learn about correct conformation and horsemanship. [/SIZE]

Education is important.

[SIZE=18pt]Standard of Perfection[/SIZE]



General Impression: A small, sound, well-balanced horse, possessing the correct conformation characteristics required of most breeds, Refinement and femininity in the mare. Boldness and masculinity in the stallion - the general impression should be one of symmetry, strength, agility and alertness. Since the breed objective is the smallest possible perfect horse, preference in judging shall be given the smaller horse, other characteristics being approximately equal.



Size: Must measure not more than 34 inches at the withers, at the last hairs of the mane.



Head: In proportion to length of neck and body. Broad forehead with large prominent eyes set wide apart. Comparatively short distance between eyes and muzzle. Profile straight or slightly concave below the eyes. Large nostrils. Clean, refined. Even bite.



Ears: Medium in size. Pointed. Carried alertly with tips curving slightly inward.



Throat-Latch: Clean and well defined allowing ample flexion at the poll.



Neck: Flexible, lengthy, in proportion to body and type and blending smoothly into the withers.



Shoulder: Long, sloping and well angulated, allowing a free-swinging stride and alert head/neck carriage. Well-muscled forearm.



Body: Well muscled with ample bone and substance. Balanced and well proportioned. Short back and loins in relation to length of underline. Smooth and generally level top-line. Deep girth and flank. Trim barrel.



Hindquarters: Long, well-muscled hip, thigh and gaskin. Highest point of croup to be same height as withers, Tail set neither excessively high or low, but smoothly rounding off rump.



Legs: Set straight and parallel when viewed from front or back. Straight, true and squarely set, when viewed from the side with hooves pointing directly ahead. Pasterns sloping about 45 degrees and blending smoothly, with no change of angle from the hooves to the ground. Hooves to be round and compact. Trimmed as short as practicable for an unshod horse. Smooth, fluid gait in motion.



Color: Any color or marking pattern, and any eye color, is equally acceptable. The hair should be lustrous and silky.

Thank you funnybunny,

I too have owned and loved ugly horses. But I never bred them.

 

[ruffian]

many of the people I'm complaining about aren't even reading this forum.

You hit the nail on the head. I stopped at a farm up north a few miles, just happened across an ad when I stopped for gas coming home from a vacation. These people just raved about their horses. Especially the beautiful long MANES & TAILS. Yep, that's what I breed for. I gave them one of my cards which has a photo of one of my girls on it - the sorrel mare in my avatar. Their response - Oh you raise BIG horses? Nope, minis. They could not believe it. Couldnt' be a mini. Well not compared to theirs that's for sure!

And they had 3-4 mares in with a stallion in 3 pens.

. They had never seen any minis on the internet. Yes, they had access, but never looked. I gave them the LB site. Interesting to know if they ever looked it up.