New Filly Dwarf????

I am In no way putting any blame anywhere just want to know more about this baby and the care and whether I should even keep the mare that is all I am not the type of person to cut any farm, mare or stud down but I do like to know about things so I am not breeding problems hope that makes sense. I breed and show dogs so know how important it is to breed the best one can and do not want to breed a dog let alone horse with problems so just am trying to learn as much as I can that's all and mean no harm to anyone

I completely understand. I think the thread has been very educational and will likely help a lot of other people in the future. I was just pointing out since you mentioned a name that that could be damaging to that horse's reputation. We all know the dwarf genes are pretty prevalent in the minis, and I myself am always curious about which lines are commonly associated with it, but with no test currently available for the gene I think naming names can sometimes turn into a witch hunt especially if there is no documentation that backs the claim.

I agree Tiffany. Just the sire known as 'Wardance', could affect many with horses by the same name. It is imperative, that the breeder of this foal, discovers just which Wardance was the sire. Hopefully, both the sire and dam are registered.

Dwarfism is (unfortunately) a given in this breed. Until there is a test for the various kinds of dwarfism, we will not be able to take the carriers, from the gene pool. I also think the OP's foal is a dwarf. What type and measure of difficulty, only time will tell. Obviously, neither the sire or dam should be bred again.

Maybe I'm alone here, but I do think, if any of us produce a dwarf, then it is up to us to be responsible for them, for life. If we absolutely cannot keep them, then the new owners must be thoroughly educated in dwarfism and all that it might entail in the future. I see so many dwarf Minis, ending up in public auctions, where those uneducated, purchase them to breed on. I think if a dwarf is to be placed, then the breeder must keep in contact with the new owners, for the life of that foal and be willing to take it back at any time, should the new owner not be able to finance the often heavy vet bills, incurred.

The OP should contact the previous owner of the mare and encourage them not to breed from that stallion again. This is if they own him. If not, then she should contact the stud owner and inform them also, of the fact that he has indeed, produced a dwarf. This might not be met with friendliness, but she will know she has done her bit, to try to stem the tide of dwarfism. I belive the OP is also a dog breeder, so she will know what I mean. Twice in my life of dogs, I have had to tell a breeder of one of my dogs, she had something very nasty and genetic, in their breeding stock. Both times, it was met with, "You don't know what you are talking about." or "You are just wanting to ruin the reputation of my dogs." Ridiculous of course, but some will never be willing to admit that they have genetic problems, within their breeding stock.

There is no shame in producing a dwarf. The only shame, is keeping it hidden or selling dwarfs on, as being 'rare' etc. or dumping in auctions. Kudos, to those who readily admit their stock has produced dwarfs.

Lizzie

Being a dog breeder I do know how important it is to know of problems and not to breed them. I am not fimilar with Dwarf minis other then seeing them but am trying to learn about them. I know the mare I bought bred is reg and have her pedigree. I do know now of many lines or pedigrees only have heard of one farm name and like the type of horses they produce but know nothing of problems in lines, I don't know breeders etc so a name is just a name to me right now but how is one able to learn if one doesn't ask questions?? I am by no means pointing fingers and know that being in dogs which I am sure its the same with horses some don't like to say they have problems because it could hurt lines. All I was doing is simply asking about a horse and what someone knows about him/ her. Heck I don't know much about the mare I have other then she is reg looks to be of good quality and was told she is a very nice mare by the person I bought her from but heck again being in dogs I know people can say what they want to make a sale to esp to someone who is just starting out. How does one find out about foals a mare has had? I have heard some say that just not to bred her to the same stallion again at this point I really dont know who the stallion is other then the person who I bought her from said she was bred to xxxx stallion and was expecting in March which March came and has gone. I am assuming when she was with the other person she wasn't with any other stallions but then again that is something I need to find out as well but I have emailed several times and just get replys that they will get back to me.... sure when? Seems some don't like to deal with the "small" people I dont know am learning and I guess learning the hard way.

I do think this is a dwarf. Give her a month and have her checked by a vet.

TPs flat rock acres said:

How does one find out about foals a mare has had?

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If the mare has had registered foals, they will be listed under her name in either the AMHA or AMHR studbook, depending on how she is registered. I can do a lookup for you on the AMHA studbook if you want to PM me her registered name, and I'm sure someone else would be willing to check AMHR for you. Of course if she had a dwarf before it is unlikely that it was registered though some have slipped past the registries. If the woman you bought the mare from is not the owner of the previously mentioned stallion, then I think it's improbable that she was actually bred to him, though she may have been bred to one of his get or grandget, in which case then there are a whole host of other bloodlines that could have passed the dwarf gene to the sire (though once again I'm not saying it is impossible for a popular line to pass on a dwarf gene). Even in the case of your mare, who you now know carries at least one dwarf gene (the popular belief right now is that there are four separate types of dwarfism and that horses can carry genes for more than one), there is a good chance that many of her ancestors are not dwarf gene carriers, though at least one of her parents had to be in order for her to inherit the gene. A few years ago John Eberth came on and hosted a special dwarfism forum here on LB, and you can still see all the questions and answers if you go to "Dwarfism In Miniatures" off the main forum page. The dwarfism topic comes up on here often, and as of now because there is no test for the genes the decision of whether or not to rebreed your mare really comes down to how you feel about it. Some feel it is unethical to breed carriers as they have the potential to continue to pass the gene on to their foals while others feel that dwarfism is likely so prevalent in the breed that removing all carriers would be detrimental to the quality and diversity of the gene pool. I know it's a lot to take in, and I'm sorry that you had this experience so early on, but at least your mare and foal are healthy and you are being proactive about breeding responsibly.

RKG miniatures said:

I do think this is a dwarf. Give her a month and have her checked by a vet.

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Many vets are not knowledgeable enough in the Miniature Horse breed to even recognize a dwarf.

I realize you are new to minis and you certainly are just trying to learn and not bad mouth anyone. I'm sure others realize this also. As for your reference to "wardance" there is a stallion with that name, or a derivation of (not spelled exactly like that) that has produced multiple dwarves and many, many folks know it. He is NOT, however, closely related to the "famous" Wardance, that as Tiff pointed out, has not, to my knowledge, EVER been associated with producing a dwarf foal. Maybe your little one is sired by the one that is known to produce them. As others have said, the miniature horse world is, sadly, pretty full of the gene. That doesn't make it acceptable to reproduce, just means we all have to be comitted to doing our share to stop the spread.

I agree with Mona's advice, let your little sweety try to strengthen those legs naturally and see if that doesn't do the trick. You may be pleasantly surprised!

I wanted to just quickly jump in here and offer you my support, your filly is SO cute! and I am sorry that she probably is dwarf but good on you for asking the tough questions and seeking the right answers.

Thank you to everyone who has posted on here, I have sure learnt alot from reading this thread.

I hope your little filly grows up to have a lovely long life with you or a special new owner.

Again well done to you and I hope and pray that all goes well with your sweet little filly

have you though of a name for her?

thank you Cassie what I am learning is the word dwarfism is I guess taboo which I didn't know but being a dog breeder and shower I am one that if I get into something I like to know things if I don't know something so when I saw my filly I had a gut that she was as having an eye in conformation of dogs and seeing so many beautiful minis and what I like that seeing things with her I knew it must not be right that is why I started seeking information and thought that is what forums are for. I know in dogs there are a lot of breeders that don't admit of problems as some dog breeders don't have or produce any problems and i am getting that impression it's like that in horses as well. again I really am just getting into horses mainly for my own self not to sell as its always been a dream of mine to have a herd of my own to just enjoy but certinly wasn't looking for problems or to cause any but have learn some with the birth of my little girl. hope they will come out with a test for it

As with any bloodline, there can be many dwarfs that you never hear about, don't mean they didn't happen, just means it was kept quite. Maybe if more breeders had been up front from the start, the industry as a whole would be better equiped to deal with dwarfs instead of making then something to hide.

i agree minimomnc it's the same with my breed of dogs is a longcoated pup is produces some have put them down or if they have a problem with hips or auto immune they sweep it under the carpet sad but true

Mona said:

Many vets are not knowledgeable enough in the Miniature Horse breed to even recognize a dwarf.

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I think this is probably very true judging by remarks about vets I have read on LB.

minimomNC said:

As with any bloodline, there can be many dwarfs that you never hear about, don't mean they didn't happen, just means it was kept quite. Maybe if more breeders had been up front from the start, the industry as a whole would be better equiped to deal with dwarfs instead of making then something to hide.

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Tthe problem is that "from the start", breeders did not know the ins and outs of dwarves and at one time, used them to reduce size as they simply didn't know better. Without any ill intent, the situation was put into play.

minimomNC said:

As with any bloodline, there can be many dwarfs that you never hear about, don't mean they didn't happen, just means it was kept quite. Maybe if more breeders had been up front from the start, the industry as a whole would be better equiped to deal with dwarfs instead of making then something to hide.

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VERY, VERY well stated and "bang on"!!

Jill said:

Tthe problem is that "from the start", breeders did not know the ins and outs of dwarves and at one time, used them to reduce size as they simply didn't know better. Without any ill intent, the situation was put into play.

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That is true Jill, however, when the problem was being recognized in the beginning, they KNEW something was terribly wrong and would hide the "misfits" out "behind the barn" or do away with them at birth and not tell people about it.

What really bothers me, is that even today, people are still often made to feel ashamed of dwarfism in their bloodlines. So where, at what point does it become acceptable to mention the bloodlines of one's dwarf?? After the parents are dead? After the famous grandparents and great grandparents are dead?

I would think that if I bought a stallion that sired a dwarf, that no matter how famous his bloodlines were, or are in the show ring today, being the owner of that foal, I should have everty right to "tell it like it is" without being "shhhhhh'd" back into my corner. OR, if as in this case, I had bought a mare in foal, and a dwarf foal resulted, because I own that foal, I should be able to disclose the parents too, because it is the foal's pedigree which comes with buying a reg'd foal. (in this particular case, it sounds like no stallion service certificate was issued, but I am meaning in most cases where people are buying/selling reg'd horses) Sure, you can say the foal would not be reg'd, but again, not necessarily so...I have seen definite dwarfs that ARE reg'd, so yes, if you can get the angles just right on some of the more minimally affected ones, then I am betting they do get through quite often. And with DNA available, there would be no disputing who the parents are.

I personally feel that even today, some of the most famous, well known farms in the industry are NOT revealing the truth about dwarf foals born on their farms. Some do, and kudos to them. I think it's time for eveyone to come out of hiding!! I can't wait until that test becomes available!! That in itself will be the singlemost BEST thing that could ever happen to this breed!

Obviously, I do not condone the use of known dwarf producers but want to point out that in the beginning, breeders did not have the knowledge and insight that we do now. Nothing more, nothing less was meant by my post. event

I don't really like the veiled references either. I'd like to know the the names of the well know breeders that are hiding these outcomes, and fully understand that cannot be done on a public forum. But the vagueness isn't a good feeling, either.

We have a term in the medical field, "FLK", funny looking kid. It means you look at a kid and something just doesn't look right and that is what you did with your little girl. She just didn't look right to you and your gut instinct was right on. That said, dwarves have the most wonderful personalities and you just got to love them.

When I first got into minis I leased a herd of mares and one came bred and I foaled her out here. She had a dwarf who just endeared himself to everyone. He was minimal dwarf and got a respiratory infection at about 1-2 months old and we did a chest xray on him. It showed he had strictures in his windpipe and his heart was shoved way up almost between his front legs and pretty constricted. He got over his infection and has gone on to have a healthy, happy life and well cared for. Knowing about the strictures, we took him into the vet hospital to be gelded and had intubation equipment standing by in case he needed it but he sailed through without problems.

On the other hand I did have a dwarf born here from my stock with no history of dwarfism on either side as we know multiple generations and no other dwarf came from those lines. He was a severe dwarf and it hurt your heart to look at him. Mom rejected him and he was so sweet and tried so hard but we put him down the next morning. That was a traumatic experience putting down an innocent foal that had done nothing wrong but have an accident of birth.

First of all, Welcome back, I've missed you! Sorry this has happened to you, but as others have said she will be very special indeed, as I have one that is 7 yrs. young and very loving.

My question to anyone that can answer is this: As a reputable breeder what is the protocal to follow when you are faced with this situation? Do you notify the registries?

Yes I know you don't rebred the carriers, or as in my case, I didn't register mine, but was wondering what else to do.

There is nothing you CAN do...no sense in contacting the registries, as nothing they can do either. AMHA won;t register a foal if they feel it is a dwarf, but some still sneak through. AMHR...I am not sure on where they stand now, but because they were more in the "dark ages" and did not require the photos, and never had anything (as far as I know) pertaining to registering/rejecting of dwarfs, many more got through into that registry. I don;t know where they stand on that now that photos are required. BUT, even if you do contact them, they do not deny any reg'd horse any rights because of their producing of dwarf foals.