Would like to make a point here...

[user 488]

Everyone's horses on here are great examples of what I am talking about...though I am now VERY confused in regards to the difference between a "bulge" and a "dish" aren't the two, the same?

Dish to me is any slight bump, anything other than a flat across forehead between or slightly above the eyes.

?? Here I thought I just put my foot in my mouth but now i'm confused LOL!

Again.....what is going on with a forehead thing? Bulge or not has NOTHING to do with a dish. A dish is located further down.

OK.....Steffanie, trying to help you out here. Where is the bulge here???? Notice the FLAT forehead. Not saying that some Arabians do not have a jibbah.......that bulge you are talking about........but the DISH IS NOT THE FOREHEAD......it's lower. Arabs can have their dish in different places, some higher and some lower.......but a dish is never in the forehead.

Or this? Even though the forelock is covering the forehead......this horses forehead is flat.

Of course these are Arabs..........and I know you would like Miniature horse examples but this picture shows clearly a "dished face" without a jibbah.

And a dish also has nothing to do with the jowl.

 

[kaykay]

Jill that is pretty much my point! When this came up last time and I got heat for what I said sp I asked some breeders that I respect a lot and they agreed that a dish is not a bulge in the forehead. So Im good with it but I think miniature breeders need to stop calling bulging foreheads araby or dished. Especially when this trait is so linked to dwarfism.

Carols quote again which i fully agree with

First of all what is a DISHY FOREHEAD??? A forehead is not where a dish should be to begin with.........

Like Kay quoted me above......a BULGE in the forehead has nothing to do with a dish and from what I understand that bulge is a dwarf trait. But far be it from me to argue and I have to say whatever anyone says here it won't change anyone's mind about what they want to breed. But, I will just say this again. A bulge in the forehead is NOT a dished head. A dish has nothing to do with that bulge.

Carol maybe you can use paint and point out the dish? this is what I have always been told for years was the dish? And when I asked around again I was told that is the dish. GRanted I grew up with quarter horses though not arabians

No matter what no one will ever convince me that a bulging forehead is a dish

 

[Jill]

Oh, no, you can't expect everyone to get with it and use the right terms :bgrin Not when they're too busy breading their phillys to their studs and all. But I do not think even with arab breeders, the dish is at all where you drew the arrow. I think it starts between the eyes like, and goes down. (see Carol's post).

 

[ClickMini]

Here is Esprit, he has a very nice head. I look at Esprit and don't necessarily think, "Arab," and that is also not what I want to breed for. I want a pretty head with some substance to the horse. I think "Morgan type."

This is what he looked like at a few days old:

Here is another from my farm, her name is Colors and she is related to Esprit:

I will say that I would not want a horse with any more refinement in the face than either of the above two.

Here is Colors' mom, I think she has what I consider a pretty "mini" face; wide-set eyes, shorter face:

 

[Devon]

Everyone's horses on here are great examples of what I am talking about...though I am now VERY confused in regards to the difference between a "bulge" and a "dish" aren't the two, the same?

Dish to me is any slight bump, anything other than a flat across forehead between or slightly above the eyes.

?? Here I thought I just put my foot in my mouth but now i'm confused LOL!

Again.....what is going on with a forehead thing? Bulge or not has NOTHING to do with a dish. A dish is located further down.

OK.....Steffanie, trying to help youout here. Where is the bulge here???? Notice the FLAT forehead. Not saying that some Arabians do not have a jibbah.......that bulge you are talking about........but the DISH IS NOT THE FOREHEAD......it's lower. Arabs can have their dish in different places, some higher and some lower.......but a dish is never in the forehead.

Or this? Even though the forelock is covering the forehead......this horses forehead is flat.

Of course these are Arabs..........and I know you would like Miniature horse examples but this picture shows clearly a "dished face" without a jibbah.

And a dish also has nothing to do with the jowl.

Exactly!!

Look at those heads there is no DOME at all its just a dish..

:

 

[lvponies]

Kay...you confused me. Why was your arrow pointing to the jowls of the horse? I understand about the bulge on a forehead not being a dish, but the dish of an arab is down below it's eyes.

Bess.....I love your horse!!! Very pretty!!

 

[Miniequine]

I too, think of 'dishy' as the dip in the face.

I have a mature mare with a tiny, dishy head. Carl did

work on her teeth in Texas, and I was pleased that she has no issues.

He just popped a bunch of caps.

I won't post her picture.. I'm sure you all are sick of seeing her...

But I have a friend that owns a 5 yr old mare with, what I think is a 'dishy' head.

I think, one of the prettiest I've seen.

This is Darlin', posted with owners permission....She has had no health issues

 

[runamuk]

Carol any chance you could post either pictures or links to some of the Arabians you work with?

Arabians do not normally have a bulge. Their forehead is actually usually quite flat, it is the chisel of the nose bridge, the wide set expressive eyes, and the tapering muzzle with LARGE nostrils, and fineness that make the head so different. Actually not all arabs have alot of dish at all but still have very characteristic arabian heads.

I think in Miniatures the term araby causes much confusion and isn't a really appropriate term to use.

OK I see Carol already posted while I was typing.............

 

[kaykay]

Im not trying to confuse anyone! This is what I have always been told made a horse dished. Now again I grew up with quarter horses not arabians! Again when I was taught it was said you could lay a dinner plate on it. When you look at so many minis they are a total straight line on the bottom which I have always been told is not a good trait.

Im hoping Carol can show where she is saying the dish is because I think a lot of us are confused LOL.

I also think this term must have different meanings breed to breed.

Honestly I dont care where the dish is as long as its not in the forehead

:

 

[MiniHoofBeats]

Bess Kelley - YES you have it on the dot! I hope to god you don't mind me posting your pic as an example but THIS Is what I am trying to refer to as the dish - the circled part:

And I think this mini has an absolutely gorgeous head =) I know not everyone likes this type however, I do know that SOME OF US (not all) like this type and breed for it. It offends me to hear my vet automatically assume mini's with dishy foreheads are dwarfs so, I was trying to say something here...I think first thing first we all need to know a common "dish" understanding lol!

Here's my girl who I think has a beautiful exotic head:

and I need a newer pic of Riley but he has a beautiful roundness too:

My mare Sunny I consider to have a flat forehead

Anyone understand what i am talking about now?

 

[lvponies]

As I understand it and have always believed, the dish is below where you circled. Not the forehead, the convex part below the eyes.....where it dips in.

 

[kaykay]

I think this gets more confusing as we go lol. Because that circle above to ME is the forehead

: I better go feed horses is so much less complicated LOL

 

[user 488]

Bess Kelley - YES you have it on the dot! I hope to god you don't mind me posting your pic as an example but THIS Is what I am trying to refer to as the dish - the circled part:

NO NO NO! That is a forehead......period................NOTHING TO DO WITH A DISH>

Let me go try and show this somehow..........

I'LL BE BACK!

Edited to show you my magnificent artwork.........

Here is where the dish is located.......could be a touch higher or lower depending on the horse but it is NOT the forehead! Who comes up with these things???????

Sorry! This is not complicated. Most of you guys understand perfectly what a dish is. Some of you are just totally misinformed.

I think this gets more confusing as we go lol. Because that circle above to ME is the forehead I better go feed horses is so much less complicated LOL

Come back Kay......it's not you!

 

[Jill]

I think the reason some mini people are confused is that in order to have a "dip down" (what command of terms I have), the forehad does need to be a wider / deeper part of the head, but the dish starts between the eyes and goes down. To me, it almost looks like you take a scoop out to "dish" it like if you were sculpting the head. But it all deals with the top part of the face, not the underside / jowls.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

As said the dish has nothing to do with foreheads- it is in/on the nose.

It has nothing to do with the jowl- never heard that, Kay, maybe it is a regional thing??

If not, not sure where it came from!!

The Jibbah I do know about.

The problems with Minis is that, as can clearly be seen- most Minis have PONY heads (not an insult, a fact) NOT Arab heads.

Some of the most extreme heads I have seen are on Welsh Sec A's- not renowned for being Horses, in fact we are very proud of them being ponies- whereas Arabs, irrespective of size, are Horses.

Unfortunately in a Mini, a bulging forehead and a dished nose often are a sign of a dwarf, and often go with other features such as nostrils on the top of the nose, a short neck- Oh, why am I telling you lot, you know what a Dwarf looks like, right??

I am afraid some people need to look carefully at pictures of Arabs if they think their horses are Miniature Arabs.

I think some people need to look carefully at their Horses............

 

[Nancy]

Everyone's horses on here are great examples of what I am talking about...though I am now VERY confused in regards to the difference between a "bulge" and a "dish" aren't the two, the same?

Dish to me is any slight bump, anything other than a flat across forehead between or slightly above the eyes.

?? Here I thought I just put my foot in my mouth but now i'm confused LOL!

Again.....what is going on with a forehead thing? Bulge or not has NOTHING to do with a dish. A dish is located further down.

OK.....Steffanie, trying to help you out here. Where is the bulge here???? Notice the FLAT forehead. Not saying that some Arabians do not have a jibbah.......that bulge you are talking about........but the DISH IS NOT THE FOREHEAD......it's lower. Arabs can have their dish in different places, some higher and some lower.......but a dish is never in the forehead.

Or this? Even though the forelock is covering the forehead......this horses forehead is flat.

Of course these are Arabs..........and I know you would like Miniature horse examples but this picture shows clearly a "dished face" without a jibbah.

And a dish also has nothing to do with the jowl.

I know this is a little off topic but, just had to say Carol your arabians are gorgeous. I had a arabians years ago but, none that would compare to your two they are stunning.

 

[user 488]

I know this is a little off topic but, just had to say Carol your arabians are gorgeous. I had a arabians years ago but, none that would compare to your two they are stunning.

Thank you Nancy, but these two horses belong to the Emir of Qatar (Al Shaqab Stud in Doha, Qatar) who is a client of the farm and who we show horses for in the Middle East and the States. I am just happy to be a part of these horses lives.

 

[MiniHoofBeats]

I too, think of 'dishy' as the dip in the face.

I have a mature mare with a tiny, dishy head. Carl did

work on her teeth in Texas, and I was pleased that she has no issues.

He just popped a bunch of caps.

I won't post her picture.. I'm sure you all are sick of seeing her...

But I have a friend that owns a 5 yr old mare with, what I think is a 'dishy' head.

I think, one of the prettiest I've seen.

This is Darlin', posted with owners permission....She has had no health issues

This mare has a gorgeous head as well, this is another great example of what I was looking for =)

I understand dwarfs and their characteristics but my point I am trying to make is simple but it keeps getting tossed around The mare above has no issues and is a perfect example of a healthy miniature horse with a "characteristic" that most would think only seen on a dwarf but its NOT TRUE! It's a beautiful characteristic that I for one, want to embrase - not accentuate any more, but, embrace. Although, I also want to breed for tinier ears, set closer together (I know my girls have long ears lol...) and I want to breed for a nostril flare...not nostrils on top of the nose, but beautiful flare (and not permenantly seen, only when the horse flares it's nostrils)

I also have goals for the rest of the body however I am very picky about heads. I chose the ones I have because of certain features, and it offends me when people come in and don't understand that horses can be bred with such characteristics, without being dwarfy. I often get asked if because mine are so small (under 30") if they are "midget" or "dwarf" mini's and of course they aren't...people assume. I was hoping to get a lesson together here to show to my locals but well.......there it went lol.....

SORRY though, I did think a "dish" meant a raised area between the eyes and ears, I didn't know it meant a dip just below the eyes. I will admit to that :bgrin

 

[buckonranch]

Yes... who are we.... What are we?????

I beleive the miniature horse breeders concept of the "Dished" head is a bulged forhead. How else would a mini get a dish????.. Well we know they are not Arabs.. so is it expressing the recessive traits.??? Is it better off calling them Arabian over Recessive heads? It makes it so hard when there is NO TYPE in the miniature.. everyone is out looking for a prototype.. I think they grabbed on to the Arabian.. No body is using the quarter horse as their role model??? I think the goal of the Arab..has been adopted because the Arabian is the finest, most delicate looking of the big horse breeds.. so we have set our sights on looking like an Arab.. because after all we are only a height registry/association.. what does our standard of perfection say we should resemble.??? I guess it doesnt matter..??? Makes one think how a judge percieves our little equine in the show ring...

Very good discussion and imput....

Angie/buckonranch

 

[Nancy]

I know this is a little off topic but, just had to say Carol your arabians are gorgeous. I had a arabians years ago but, none that would compare to your two they are stunning.

Thank you Nancy, but these two horses belong to the Emir of Qatar (Al Shaqab Stud in Doha, Qatar) who is a client of the farm and who we show horses for in the Middle East and the States. I am just happy to be a part of these horses lives.

I would be too . Have always loved arabians they are breathtaking to just watch them trot.