Who passes on an off bite in foals ?

[minimom1]

I am asking this for a friend who is fairly new breeding mini's but doesn't have a computer. Here is the situation.

Last year was the first year she bred her stallion, she bred to 5 mares. 2 of the mares were sold during pregnancy so she does not know how the foals turned out yet, but out of the 3 she knows so far 2 have off bites and one is correct.

stallion and all mares bred have a good bite (not off)

1 foal has good bite at birth

1 was off at birth and seems to be correcting itself

1 was good at birth but by 2 months old is going off

So where does the problem lie ? She is hesitant to breed or sell her stallion if he is somehow responsible for these bad bites even though his is correct. All horses in his pedigree were shown so we are assuming they had good bites as well.

Is an off bite a genetic problem or just one of those things that can happen ?

Would you keep breeding this stallion with a track record like that ?

When a bite is born correct and THEN goes off - Will it or can it recover and be good in the long run ?

I really really appreciate any advice or information you can give her and I will make sure she gets your responses. She is very concerned about this issue and never expected to have so many foals with off bites when she was very careful in picking horses with correct bites to breed.

Thank you

 

[sundaymom]

I will share with you my experience as that is all I am positive about..lol!

As foals I would not be overly upset or make any rash decisions before you had an equine and/or vet dentist look at their mouths. Babies mouths often go back and forth as they grow. An equine dentist takes care of my horses teeth and I feel due to consistant care, from the time they are young, that any major off bite, that might have occured due to neglect, is offset.

Sometimes a babies upper teeth will catch behind the bottom teeth due to growth of one faster than the other. If nothing is done, yes they develope an off bite, but I have seen a few seconds swipe of a drill, line the teeth up perfect, with no further problem the rest of their life.

I once had a well known equine dentist say he wished he had the money to buy all the young horses, who the owner drops the price to give away, due to an off bite.

I also have a friend who had an older horse with a terrible off bite. Had never seen an equine dentist. After two or three treatments, over a years time, the horse was only about a 1/2 tooth off.

So my suggestion before your friend does anything is have a knowlegable person such as an equine dentist look at them.

 

[Margo_C-T]

I will give you my personal opinion.

I had a very nice small mare who was NOT born w/ an off-bite, but who developed it as she aged. I bought her knowing her history; the breeder/previous owner had not had her teeth worked on(this was a number of years ago; most people simply never thought there would be a need or a reason to float the teeth of a youngster w/ 'baby' teeth!

I bought her because she was in every(other)way a very nice little mare, and had not reproduced the issue. She NEVER reproduced it for me; in fact, her babies were always some of my best, and she was bred to various stallions while here, all with visibly correct bites. I quit breeding, and she has been loaned out for several years; has had only one foal in that time(she has silent heats, was always hard to settle; always an 'every other year' mare.)

I now believe that if we had realized, back then, that having such a youngster's teeth aggressively floated *might* make a difference('we' meaning the breeder AND myself; neither of us even thought about such early floating...and by the time I got her, it likely would not have changed much if anything, IMO.), that PERHAPS the situation could have been corrected. Of course, I'll never REALLY know. I saw the mouths of both her parents; straight as could be.

I now believe that *SOME* horses can have issues with hooks, etc. on the rear molars that *MAY*(I don't know if anyone really KNOWS/CAN PRODUCE PROOF of this, one way or the other, but maybe someone who believes they can will speak up) restrict the movement and/or growth of the jaw of a young horse, and that early floating *MIGHT* be of help.That said, I also believe that there *could be* ethical issues as to whether or not it is 'right' to do such work to 'correct' an offbite, and then to breed that animal...my personal inclination now would be to DO the corrective work, and HOPE it 'did the job'(to save the animal from a lifetime of 'possible' discomfort), but NOT to breed the animal that had it, at least unless I knew the animal's ENTIRE history...IMO, it still IS something of a judgement call, for anyone.

Personally, I would still consider breeding this PARTICULAR mare,because I KNOW her production history. However, I could understand why others might be leery of breeding her.I sold ONE of her sons 'entire'(he was an outstandingly NICE little horse); but the guy apparently 'got out' of minis and had him gelded not long after...he never even transferred his papers -- GRRRR!

--I was told by his SIL that he had gelded the horse, sometime later. I probably would not sell an entire son of this mare nowadays; I did always disclose the mare's bite issue to purchasers of her offspring, and never had any negative feedback; that said, I always knew I would NEVER AGAIN breed the mare if ANY of her offspring demonstrated an 'off'bite.

I once paid a large sum for a stallion prospect out of well-known bloodlines. He came with a guarantee that he would have two descended testicles. Lo and behold, his bite began to go off soon after I got him as a weanling. Again, this was well before 'early' tooth work becsme common in miniatures. I had him thoroughly 'worked on' before he was two, but it changed nothing; he got worse and worse. He also began showing stifle lock...seriously...in BOTH hind legs, and it continued, despite plenty of excercise, not being confined, etc. I took a real financial 'hit' on this horse...had him gelded, gave him away(to a great 'ranch' home where he had LOTS of room to roam; last I heard he STILL had intermittent stifly lock,but was otherwise happy and healthy. I sent in his papers, marked that he had died, so they could never 'end up' with another horse. Lessons I learned? You need MORE than a 'descended testes' guarantee; you can never really KNOW what is 'going on' with lots of miniature lines; and just because you dealt with friends does not mean it will be 'made right' when things go wrong, for starters!

(I know there is surgery/ligament splitting for stifle issues, but I would NEVER have either 'done to' a breeding animal and then use it for breeding. That would be highly unethical, IMO.

Don't guess I've given you much of an 'answer'; only more questions. I applaud your friend for her ethics in being concerned about this issue relative to her stallion; stallions have more 'effect' on the future population, IMO, simply because they can sire in NUMBERS every year, while a mare produces only ONE individual each year.

Margo

 

[Becky]

You will probably get a number of different opinions on bites. There may be some genetic issues in play on off bites yet I know that environment and nutrition play important roles in a developing fetus as well as a foal after birth.

As has been pointed out, it's not uncommon for bites to go 'off' as a foal matures and develop. It is, however, critically important to have a knowledgable vet or equine dentist examine a foal as early as a few weeks if it is developing an abnormal bite. Early intervention is key to not having problems as a mature horse as there may be hooks holding up one jaw or the other causing it to hang up and not move. Floating can solve the problem in many cases.

 

[JMS Miniatures]

All bites in foals IMO go off every so often. Its just a part of growing up. However it they are too terribly off then I would be concerned. The one that was born with a bad bite I would defintelly pay extra close attention too. I think the biggest concern would be is if that baby developed a underbite. That is much worse IMO.

It is defintelly a tough call when it comes to the stallion. You can't rule out the mares either. However if she feels hesitant I wouldn't breed him. I would just geld him but I may hold off if he is worth keeping him a stud and see how their bites go along as they get older. But no I would not sell him because he throws bad bites, does no body any good. If she wants to sell him I would geld him first or sell him under a gelding contract.

 

[minimom1]

Thank you all for your replies, I will make sure she gets them.

I don't know that she would geld him but she of course would disclose to anyone who purchased him why she was selling him.

I think personally I would geld him but it is not my choice.

The one with the bite off since birth is actually my colt as I purchased a mare in foal from her a year ago.

My colt is 7 weeks old now and his bite is barely off but he is not ever going to be shown or bred, he is just my pet. It has improved since birth as I check often.

He certianly has no problem eating and I have seen much worse bites on mini's so I am not too concerned at the moment and I will have the vet check him next month when he is out.