When things don't go as planned - Max update

[targetsmom]

If all had gone according to plan, Max (see avatar) would be in a trailer on his way to the AMHA World Show right now. But sometimes things don't work out quite the way we intended, despite our best efforts. Max started the show season with a bang, qualifying for the World Show at his first show. And he ended it with a bang too - shortly after the Maine Miniature Show where Max won 4 Supremes (both "under" Supremes at the R show and an Open and Ammy Supreme at the A show), Max colicked and had surgery for an impaction. So that is why there have been no recent updates, why we didn't go to the regional show in Ohio, etc. Despite all this, last time I checked he was still listed on the Honor roll in Open and Ammy Level 1 Junior Stallions, 30" and under. But this experience sure puts show winnings into perspective.

Of course, I have had more that my share of experience with recovery from colic surgery, but Max is a challenge. He only just arrived back here (he had been with Co-owner Kristina Slobody) and is still settling in. The Slobody's (who have been fabulous through this whole experience) had finally worked out a diet and he is doing better than he was at first. But everything here is different, especially the amount of space and our set up. Right now Max is in the backyard eating grass. My philosophy about horses is to keep them as close to nature as possible, which is why my other colic surgery case (Target) is on pasture 24/7 and maybe why he is still alive at age 24, with only half his small intestines. When Max isn't in the back yard, he is in a stall with a small runout attached, and as long as Max behaves, he can visit the herd through the fence.

The main issues/questions:

1. Max eats shavings so rather than muzzle him, I just removed all his bedding. I did leave in extra hay, and then added a bit of VERY well hydrated pelleted bedding, which he seems to know what to do with (pee and poop on) and does not seem to be eating. Is there something better to try for bedding? Or if has left this small amount alone, should I just keep adding more?

2. Anything you can think of to try for his appetite? He is getting Stomach Soother on his grain (Omoline 200 + oil + supplements) and he eats that quite well. He had been getting Sweet Crimped Oats (which I can't seem to find) and Poulin Forage Extender (which he hates). I am swapping that out for some Nutrena Senior (a complete feed), which he is eating. I have a selection of hay and I try them all, but what he likes one moment is not necessarily what he wants the next. I think the concept of "free choice hay" for a show mini is hard to grasp!

3. Should we geld Max? I am thinking yes, and I don't see any reason not to, but would like opinions. I know my usual reaction to anyone who has to ask the question is "YES, Geld him". He would make an awesome all around gelding.

Recent video so you can see how thin he is: Unclipped, dirty, and totally unplanned - I was outside the fence with the camera in my hand when he decided to show off: Remember he is only 30" tall.

http://s84.photobucket.com/albums/k29/targetsmom/?action=view&current=P1020430.mp4

Thanks for any opinions and suggestions.

 

[wcr]

I realize you are going through a rough time right now and have more than your share of disappointments as far as breeding goes, but now is not the time to make rash decisions. Max is a beautiful horse and has the show record to prove it. You have spent a lot of time and effort to put your program together and I think you would regret your decision if you gelded him now. Sit back and enjoy the winter and reevaluate in the spring.

 

[~Lisa~]

How scary this whole thing must be. I would not worry about gelding now give him some time and worry about a decision in the spring time unless gelding him now means he can live with others on pasture.

I use no bedding in my indoor outdoor stalls the horses all go outside in the dirt rather then on the mats which is better for all of us. They are not clipped for winter so have no issue laying down on the mats as far as cold goes. I have some that eat shavings as well so for me it is just easier and a lot less worry this way.

Maybe if he was doing well on crimped oats (I know they had molasses) try whole oats if you can not find any with molasses they usually do like them just plain and really a great grain for the majority of horses.

 

[HGFarm]

I would not make any rash decisions at this time and just concentrate on getting him back on his feet and over this problem. He will come back into great shape in no time. What lovely movement on a SMALL horse!!!!!!! I would not geld yet.... and no reason why he wont heal up and go right back to the show ring better than ever!

 

[Lmequine]

We have been very successful with feeding Equine Sr. (either the Dumor brand from Tractor Supply or the Purina Brand) to the horses/ponies after colic surgery. It is easy to digest and most tend to eat it well and it is much less likely to cause a compaction colic. Free choice hay can be tricky because if he is not drinking enough water or is not chewing it well could lead to another compaction. My vet does about one colic surgery a week minimum and has for the last 16 years that I have lived here. Post-op colic horses get sr feed and high quality alfalfa hay. He just did a 30" mini mare a few weeks ago and she was compacted with shavings. Did another mini earlier in the summer (a baby) and he was full of sand. If he were my horse I would also do a couple weeks of gastrogard paste (or any other omeprazole medication), it will help prevent or treat any ulcers and it really helps enhance a horses appetite. Do you know what caused the compaction in the first place with Max?

As far as stalling, Lisa's suggestion of stall mats is a good one and just regular dirt.

Good luck with him!

 

[targetsmom]

Thanks for the GREAT suggestions so far - keep them coming.

Target (my big horse who had colic surgery) has been getting Nutrena Senior Feed and I swear that is what has kept him alive. That is why I am thinking of slowly switching Max to that. The Gastroguard is a great idea - he did get a course of that right before the surgery because that was the first thought. He is drinking well, but then, I added a salt block to his stall. I am trying to get him to eat soaked alfalfa cubes but those are not real popular either. I have not given up on them though.

All our horses are on stall mats, but where Max is now, I have to shut him in the stall at night. The other minis are out at night and I would not trust them with just a fence between them! Unless he was gelded. If I swapped him with our other stallion (his sire, Buckshot) I could potentially leave him out at night as I do Buckshot. Buckshot has spoiled us - he is SO easy to deal with!!

No, we have no idea what caused the colic, which they first thought was ulcers and then thought was an enlarged bladder. Only on the third day did they figure it out, I think when they sliced him open. I never knew what caused Target's colics either.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

There is no point to gelding him now as it will not solve your problem.

Your problem is that you cannot leave him out at night, and that would not change if you gelded him, he would still be who he is, only the "what" would have changed and it would take his "who" about six months to completely catch up with his "what"!!!

 

[albahurst]

Ditto-

I would wait to decide to geld until you have all had time to heal up from all of this. He is lovely, BTW

We use Paper Shavings Animal Bedding.

Good luck to you and keep us posted.

Edited to add- My vet has suggested to keep the drug, Buscopan, on hand, especially in show kits. It can stop a colic episode in its tracks. You might ask your vet about it.

 

[hobbyhorse23]

Target (my big horse who had colic surgery) has been getting Nutrena Senior Feed and I swear that is what has kept him alive. That is why I am thinking of slowly switching Max to that. The Gastroguard is a great idea - he did get a course of that right before the surgery because that was the first thought. He is drinking well, but then, I added a salt block to his stall. I am trying to get him to eat soaked alfalfa cubes but those are not real popular either. I have not given up on them though.

Senior feed has the additional benefits of being easy to digest and chew as it is designed for (duh) older horses whose systems may not work so well. Spyder ate it very well and maintained weight until his death at the age of 33 even when it had to be served completely soaked with tons of beet pulp and grass hay pellets because he had no teeth!

Kody has always had a crazy digestive system and gone on and off his feed for no apparent reason over the years but I've finally found what works for him. He gets good quality grass hay as the bulk of his diet, a handful of alfalfa with each meal to get a little calcium in his stomach to help with ulcer prevention and appetite, and then a maintenance dose of probiotics every evening with his grain. That last seems to have made the single biggest difference with him! He's been on it since this spring and knock on wood, hasn't gone off his feed once since then.

For Kody that's a miracle. I put him on it because I found by accident that they were very helpful with my own stomach issues and they seem to do us both a lot of good. When I take him to shows or anywhere else stressful he gets Ulcergard as a preventative (he's quite prone to them) and sloppy wet senior feed and beet pulp meals to keep his water intake levels up. I've always been a fan of K.I.S.S. as a feeding principle but it just doesn't seem to be an option for my complicated little horse.

None of my three boys liked the alfalfa cubes I tried and I can't really blame them- it looks and smells nothing like good alfalfa hay.

I'm meeting an increasing number of people who don't use bedding or only use a little towards the back of matted stalls and it seems to work just fine for most of them. We always bedded our full-sized horses stalls deeply but then again those were much heavier horses who originally were on dirt floors and needed plenty for absorption. After we got mats we still bedded deeply because the old man had arthritis and needed all the cushion we could give him, and because he HATED it when his urine splashed. He'd been stall-kept all his life and didn't understand the idea of going potty outside.

The little boys spend most of their time voluntarily laying down on the hard ground outside and pee outside so I finally realized I wasn't doing them any favors loading their stalls up with shavings that just broke down into lots of dust underfoot. Now they each get one nice section of sawdust in their stalls which Kody uses to lay down on and Turbo uses to pee on.

It works better for all of us. At shows where there may be concrete under the mats and the horses never get out on soft ground I bed like crazy though so they're comfortable getting off their feet and will rest well.

I think if I were you I'd up the bedding until he has enough to meet his toiletry needs and then stop there unless he tells you otherwise. I'd also go with senior feed and possibly soaked beet pulp if my vet said it was okay and serve it sloppy both to prevent choke and to make sure he's getting PLENTY of water. Our other Arab, Bo, colicked in his early twenties and our vet pulled his intestines out inch by inch in the backyard through a slit in his side

but he survived to reach his 30's thanks to lots and lots of grazing during his recovery time and plenty of senior feed in his later years. I'm a great believer in the healthy benefits of grazing a sick horse!

The last thing, the question of gelding, my only concern is that it would be awfully hard on a horse who's already skinny and sick. I don't think I'd put him through the additional stress right now although it would eventually allow him to be turned out with the others which I'm sure would make him happier and encourage eating. It's also too easy for a vet to miscalculate anesthetic for a horse who has suddenly lost a lot of weight. I'd wait! Can you put another horse who won't excite him in a stall where he can see them? Got a gelding, or a gelding you can borrow?

Big hugs from here in the NW, Mary! Hang in there.

Leia

 

[Marty]

Hi Mary, I wouldn't be gelding him either. You can't grow them back.

I had a shavings eater too but only on occasion and I don't like muzzles one bit and wouldn't go that route. I use pelleted bedding for her, added a couple of toys and that solved the problem. But then I didn't like her laying down on the pelleted bedding after a while, just wasn't soft and clean and fluffy enough for my taste, so I decided to add like just half a bale of shavings on top of it to satisfy my "gotta have a clean horse OCD."I'll be a son of a gun, she never ate shavings again after that.

where Max is now, I have to shut him in the stall at night. The other minis are out at night and I would not trust them with just a fence between them!

I'm getting the idea that Max is a little fireball. Maybe add hotwire on both sides of the fence? Then maybe try to get Max to settle down by the fenceline with the others little by little when you can watch him and ease him into his routine? I can't lock just one horse up in the barn alone. They all come in or they all are out. Just one horse alone in the barn would cause screaming and chaos and I'd probably have a break out.

I hate sweet feed with a passion and use Purina Strategy. My horses are always stalled every night and during the days in bad weather, so I offer beet pulp for lunch. They get ample hay in the barn always. Good luck with Max, I'll bet he is going to settle in fine in time.

 

[targetsmom]

Just to clarify - Max is not shut in the barn alone. I would never do that! Our barn is not a normal barn, as you can see from this very old picture:

Max's stall is the one on the right with the window, and his turnout is where the black and white gelding is standing. Actually any of three stalls can use this turnout area. The other stalls are all occupied at night, it is only the "overflow" minis that are housed in a run-in type situation. The doors you see in this photo are all back doors to the stalls, and Max's other door actually opens into the overhang area that all the other minis have access to, day or night. So he has plenty of company. You can see that overhang area, split up by round pen panels, in the right of the photo. The big horse has the area to the far right, well separated by round pen panels.

I don't think Max is any more of a fireball than any other yearling stallion in a new situation. We were thinking hot wire and may go that route, but would like to avoid it if possible.

Our horses get fed 4 times a day, with grain twice a day and just hay and/or soaked alfalfa cubes at the other meals. Max is getting grain 3 times a day though. I agree with you on the sweet feed, but it is what he will eat. I do like the idea of the complete senior feed.

 

[sedeh]

Hi Mary. I haven't been on the forum for a few days and then saw this! I'm so sorry to hear about Max but glad he made it through surgery okay. You've already gotten some good advise! I wouldn't geld him at this point either. Love your barn BTW! {{{{{HUGS}}}}}