What driving class?

[txminipinto]

Hey folks,

I need some opinions on where to put this guy in driving and I finally got a good profile shot of him at an extended trot. This is Diamond Horseshoes Ima Toy Two, owned by Nancy and Carroll Blankenship of Waskom, TX. Toy was shown in both CP and WCP last year and actually won the Area V stakes WP class. He's 31.5" tall. Last year, he drove with a much lower headset, but after a winter of really working on collection and flexion, his headset is much higher. And in my opinion, too high for WP. BUT, even though he's picked up quite a bit of speed, he is still routinely passed on the rail.

This photo was taken at the AMHR Corsicana show 2 weekends go in CP. He was 2nd/3rd in Ladies and 3rd/4th in Stakes.

 

[Alex]

If you get his head lowered, possibl y WCP, but i think "CP" when I look at him.

jmo

 

[Sandee]

Just from the picture I'd say CP. This is the same thing that I (wonder/fear) may happen to my guy in his second year of driving. But for this time of year you're way ahead of where I am. Guess that's the advantage of living in the south, huh! (Wisconsin brrrr )

 

[shalamara minis]

From the picture looks like Country Pleasure

 

[Black Magic]

Okay.. I have to admit being dumb on the CP and WCP thing. However, I can tell you that we have two driving minis and no one ever passes them anywhere. When it did happen, I had to check to see why it was happening. I had my son driving and could see where we were having a problem. The coachmen's loops were up to high and when he'd bend to start into a turn the poles would hit him in the neck. I now work over time to make sure the poles don't hit higher then the shoulder. When the poles and loops are down, he can side step into a turn to do a nice pivot. We figured out that when my son tacks up the horses we just didn't fasten down the loops tight enough and they would bounce up into neck zone.. if you KWIM?

As I am a novice at driving minis...but we go out on the Florida Greenway with a few other minis and have a trail of four or five driving minis doing the trail, over the trail bridge that crosses over I-75. The bridge is wide and it's funny how the horses will all start jockeying for position to pass when we hit that bridge. Lol.. Having a mini out for four or five hours driving the trail is just the best experience and very useful for learning what works best when driving.

God Bless,

Lynn W

P.S. Our "R" mini has been out driving for eight hours without a complaint. He's such a good boy...

 

[Karen S]

Hey Carin,

Here are the rules again for everyone to see and look at your picture. I still say leave him in the Western Country Pleasure driving division. You have done a wonderful job and no he doesn't travel fast. Being in the center ring during your driving class (I'm the Ring Steaward for the Corsicana shows) I can see what the judges see. He to me is what a Western Country Pleasure Driving horse is. His headset is right on if you look at the description below:

Western Country Pleasure Driving:

1. A Western Country Pleasure driving horse should carry himself in a natural balanced position with a relaxed head and neck. His poll should be level with, or slightly above the level of the withers (?? Approximately 4 to 5 inches or 45 degrees??)

2. Maximum credit should be given to a horse with a relaxed head and neck, that carries his poll level with, or slightly above the withers, moves straight, with low strides and little flection of the knees and hocks, with free movement, manners and a bright expression.

3. The horse shall be severly penalized if he carries his head more than (?5 inches?) above the level of the withers, is behind the vertical, is overflexed, excessive nosed out, the poll is below the withers, exhibits excessive speed or shows lack of control by the exhibitor.

4. This class will be judged 60 percent on the horse's performance, manners and way of going, and suitability for assuring a pleasurable drive, 30 percent on condition, fit and appropriateness of harness and vehicle, and 10 percent on neatness, appropriateness of attire and overall impression. Overchecks and side checks should be slightly loose, not snug. Excessive knee action and speed will be penalized.

5. The Western County Pleasure horse may not cross enter into the Country Pleasure, Pleasure Driving or Park.

A. General Regulations

1. Western Country Pleasure driving is to be shown to a two wheel cart only. Bike tires or wooden wheels are permissible.

2. Harness in the Western Country Pleasure division must be of the light type. Breastcollars or light collars are permissible, but no full hames are allowed. Britching is optional. Side or Over-checks are required. When shown, the horse must have blinders (round or square) and the check must be hooked. No other appliances may be used on a driving horse other than the harness. (Example: No fly nets on the ears, face, or body).

3. Bits in the Western Country Pleasure driving division shall be of the snaffle type. No liverpool bits, curb chains or curb straps are allowed.

4. Martingales and check bits are optional.

B. Class Conditions

1. Horses shall enter the ring clockwise (to the right) at a Country Pleasure Trot. All horses are to be shown both ways of the arena at a Walk, Country Pleasure Trot and Extended Trot. All gaits to be performed in a smooth relaxed, balanced manner. Consistently showing too far off the rail and excessive noisemaking by exhibitors during the class shall be penalized according to severity. Each horse shall be required to back readily and straight and stand quietly.

a. Walk: A free, regular and forward moving four beat gait. The horse should walk freely and calmly, with an even determined gait.

b. Country Pleasure Trot: A balanced, easy moving, relaxed two beat gait demonstrating forward movement with a flat knee and little hock flexion.

c. Extended Trot: A clear increase in gait and length of stride. The horse should move freely on a taut, but light rein, while maintaining a balanced gait and forward movement with low strides and little flexion of the knees and hocks. Excessive knee action and speed to be severely penalized.

2. Maximum credit should be given to a horse with a relaxed head and neck, that carries his poll level with, or slightly above the withers, moves straight, with low strides and little flexion of knees and hocks, with free movement, manners, and a bright expression.

I would keep him in the Westen Country Pleasure class.

Karen

 

[txminipinto]

Thanks Karen for posting the rules of WP. While I definately feel his gait is that of a WP horse his head set is what was bothering me. Many of the WP horses have their polls level with their withers and last year, following Area V, I was placed at the bottom of the class in several WP classes under horses with lower headsets. Granted, we had other issues going on too, but the judges have seemed to want those headsets like a QH western pleasure class.

Hmmm, maybe I'll bump him back up into WP at Glen Rose and see what happens.

 

[Field-of-Dreams]

Personally, I'd say CP. His head is rather high for WCP. My guy was one that carried his head pretty much level and we were Reserve Grand at Nationals.



(Sorry, that's as big as I can get this pic!)

Now, if you loosen his check will his head go down?

Lucy

 

[Fred]

Western country pleasure he's too flat for country and his head set is not that high. Judges themselves are still trying to figure out the class and it will be a while before the judging on it becomes consistant.

 

[txminipinto]

His check is attached but so loose it does nothing. I can drive this horse (when he's not spooking in the arena - he hates Corsicana) one handed. And no, his head will no longer go down - it used to until I built those neck muscles up this winter. He naturally carries his head high anyway.

 

[hobbyhorse23]

His headset is right on if you look at the description below:
Western Country Pleasure Driving:

1. A Western Country Pleasure driving horse should carry himself in a natural balanced position with a relaxed head and neck. His poll should be level with, or slightly above the level of the withers (?? Approximately 4 to 5 inches or 45 degrees??)

Given that description and the one picture we're working from (we all know it's difficult for a single picture to accurately show how the horse carries himself) I'd say his headset is too high for WP at this moment. I agree with Karin that this horse overall appears to be a better fit for WP than CP but you do need to get his head down again. He's a bit like Kody in that he's stuck somewhere in the middle of the two divisions with too much hock action and headset for the one, but not enough for the other at this point.

His check is attached but so loose it does nothing. I can drive this horse (when he's not spooking in the arena - he hates Corsicana) one handed. And no, his head will no longer go down - it used to until I built those neck muscles up this winter. He naturally carries his head high anyway.

It sounds like you've built in strength but sacrificed some flexibility in the process. It's important for all athletes to stretch any muscle they are strengthening so take off the check for a few sessions and ask him to reach down to the ground and stretch out. Do lots of bending exercises and encourage him to travel in a long frame until you feel his back loosen up and see his hips start to swing nicely. Then you can gently bring him back to your hand and should be able to control how high his head is by how much you take up contact.

Kody too has developed a much higher headset this year than he used to have but through regular stretching work I can get him to arch nicely forward and down to hold a more QH frame without falling on his forehand. There's no way he'll ever make a CP horse by today's standards so that's very handy!

We work in the higher frame for dressage and CDE work then have him stretch out and go back to a "training level frame" for breed shows.

Leia

 

[Field-of-Dreams]

His check is attached but so loose it does nothing. I can drive this horse (when he's not spooking in the arena - he hates Corsicana) one handed. And no, his head will no longer go down - it used to until I built those neck muscles up this winter. He naturally carries his head high anyway.

I don't blame him! Corsicana has all those shadowy corners....

We didn't make it to Corsicana this spring, but hope to make it this fall!!

Lucy

 

[Minimor]

That would be my idea of the ideal WP driving horse. I agree with Karen S that the class description matches that photo very well. His head isn't high enough for what I'd want in CP.

 

[Irish Hills Farm]

Western Country Pleasure Driving:

1. A Western Country Pleasure driving horse should carry himself in a natural balanced position with a relaxed head and neck. His poll should be level with, or slightly above the level of the withers (?? Approximately 4 to 5 inches or 45 degrees??)

2. Maximum credit should be given to a horse with a relaxed head and neck, that carries his poll level with, or slightly above the withers, moves straight, with low strides and little flection of the knees and hocks, with free movement, manners and a bright expression.

3. The horse shall be severly penalized if he carries his head more than (?5 inches?) above the level of the withers, is behind the vertical, is overflexed, excessive nosed out, the poll is below the withers, exhibits excessive speed or shows lack of control by the exhibitor.

4. This class will be judged 60 percent on the horse's performance, manners and way of going, and suitability for assuring a pleasurable drive, 30 percent on condition, fit and appropriateness of harness and vehicle, and 10 percent on neatness, appropriateness of attire and overall impression. Overchecks and side checks should be slightly loose, not snug. Excessive knee action and speed will be penalized.

5. The Western County Pleasure horse may not cross enter into the Country Pleasure, Pleasure Driving or Park.

A. General Regulations

1. Western Country Pleasure driving is to be shown to a two wheel cart only. Bike tires or wooden wheels are permissible.

2. Harness in the Western Country Pleasure division must be of the light type. Breastcollars or light collars are permissible, but no full hames are allowed. Britching is optional. Side or Over-checks are required. When shown, the horse must have blinders (round or square) and the check must be hooked. No other appliances may be used on a driving horse other than the harness. (Example: No fly nets on the ears, face, or body).

3. Bits in the Western Country Pleasure driving division shall be of the snaffle type. No liverpool bits, curb chains or curb straps are allowed.

4. Martingales and check bits are optional.

B. Class Conditions

1. Horses shall enter the ring clockwise (to the right) at a Country Pleasure Trot. All horses are to be shown both ways of the arena at a Walk, Country Pleasure Trot and Extended Trot. All gaits to be performed in a smooth relaxed, balanced manner. Consistently showing too far off the rail and excessive noisemaking by exhibitors during the class shall be penalized according to severity. Each horse shall be required to back readily and straight and stand quietly.

a. Walk: A free, regular and forward moving four beat gait. The horse should walk freely and calmly, with an even determined gait.

b. Country Pleasure Trot: A balanced, easy moving, relaxed two beat gait demonstrating forward movement with a flat knee and little hock flexion.

c. Extended Trot: A clear increase in gait and length of stride. The horse should move freely on a taut, but light rein, while maintaining a balanced gait and forward movement with low strides and little flexion of the knees and hocks. Excessive knee action and speed to be severely penalized.

2. Maximum credit should be given to a horse with a relaxed head and neck, that carries his poll level with, or slightly above the withers, moves straight, with low strides and little flexion of knees and hocks, with free movement, manners, and a bright expression.

I would keep him in the Westen Country Pleasure class.

Karen

Hope you don't mind me reposting the picture.

In this picture this horse does not qualify for WCP because of how this class is defined (see where I bolded above). If you feel this horse isn't gaited enough to compete in CP and is better suited for WCP, then you need to lower his head back down for WCP.

I feel that if a horse cannot compete in a desired class, we'll use CP for an example, and you are going to show in a different class (WCP for example), you must comply with the rules/description of the class you are going to compete in. Or we are going to end up coming up with another driving class for those "tweeners". It has been said that not all horses are halter horses, and let it be said that not all horses are driving horses either. This statement does NOT necessarily pertain to the horse in the above picture so don't go there.

 

[Minimor]

Ah, but you see, as I look at that picture I do see the poll as being just slightly above the level of the withers. I can't measure for sure on a picture, but I don't believe that the poll is more than 5" above the withers in this case.

In flipping through the Dec. Journal & looking at the pix of the horses that won the WP classes at Nationals last year, the over division horse actually has his head higher than the horse pictured above. The Under horse is pictured standing so I can't say how he carried his head when in action.

 

[Irish Hills Farm]

But the rule says max credit should be given to those carry poll LEVEL to the wither. Is the 5" included in the rule, I couldn't tell by it being in the parenthesis.

And I don't think by looking at the picture you can say one way how much higher his poll is to the wither. It's my opinion that it's to high for the WCP class.

Ok, I went to AMHR's site and pulled up the rule.

Part 15 – Western Country Pleasure Driving

(Required at Nationals Only and will be

considered Non-Rated at all other ASPC/AMHR

Sanctioned Shows until the 2008 show season.)

1. A Western Country Pleasure Driving horse

should carry himself in a natural balanced

position with a relaxed head and neck. His poll

should be level with, or slightly above the level

of the withers.

2. Maximum credit should be given to a horse

with a relaxed head and neck, that carries his

poll level with, or slightly above the withers,

moves straight, with low strides and with little

flexion of knees and hocks, with free

movement, manners and a bright expression.

3. The horse shall be severely penalized if his poll

is more than 5 inches above the level of the

withers, is behind the vertical, is overflexed,

excessively nosed out, the poll is below the

withers, exhibits excessive speed or shows lack

of control by the exhibitor.

So the only time the 5" is mentioned is in paragraph 3. So, to me, the pole better be as close to the wither as possible.

 

[ruffian]

OK - here's my 2 cents! I'd say WP according to his gait IN THIS PHOTO. Very little hock or knee action. With the black mane I can't tell where his withers are, and he has a nice little arch to his neck, so his poll is lower than the crest of his neck as I see it. I can't tell if it's 5" or less above the withers, but I would judge him to be less than the 45 deg mentioned in the rules. That said - I don't know if judges would consider more that a horse's head is level at withers or the 45 degrees.

OK - I'm such a troublemaker - how come they aren't using "at the last hair of the mane"??? OK my bad. OH!

 

[Fred]

The horse is flat moving and his head and neck are relaxed in in the natural position for him. Thats what it comes down to. His head is not too high. He is not over flexed and he is BALANCED and it doesn't matter what division you are in the horse has to be balanced.

 

[txminipinto]

Thank you for all the responses. It's definately something that is left up to the interuptation of the rules. He is a flat moving horse and he's finally balanced in the harness and working well. Based on this picture, I took a sheet of paper and held it at the withers so I could see where his poll was in relation. His eye is at the level of the withers and I know he doesn't have 5 inches between his eye and poll. So based on that, his poll wouldn't be too high for WCP. I also checked the angle and he's at or under 45 degrees.

Yes, he's not a peanut roller but he moves nicely and in a more western fashion than country. I guess we'll try both divisions again this year and see where the judges want to place him. Personally, I'd be fine with NOT showing in Western that way I don't have to wear my hat!

But, I can suffer if that means putting him in the right class for him.