Technical question - harnessing

[ClickMini]

OK, this is a spinoff of the tight bellyband question.

The way I learned it for show ring driving really is that the girth is not too tight, in fact a bit on the loose side. The wrap straps come up behind that girth, and yes, they are wrapped down tight and hard. To keep the shafts from running forward in a downward transition. It was always emphasised that the girth was looser in order for the horse to be able to breathe well. The point IS to have the horse pulling more from the saddle. You may or may not see slack in the traces. Also in the way that I learned, the saddle is usually sitting well back off the shoulder, held in place by the crupper, then angled forward toward the elbow. This is to allow the full rotation of the shoulder with no interference.

I don't have a HUGE problem with this as long as the saddle is built with relief in the spine channel. I HATE my Mini Express harness for that reason, there is NO spine channel at all. I LOVE my Estate Horse Supply harness because they are beautifully built with spine channels. I use that Mini Express harness on Flirt, and therefore she also has a big thick pad under the saddle. I still don't like it.

On the other hand, the one thing that has ALWAYS bothered me about this is that you are still pressing down on both sides of the spine. I think you can see it in horses that have driven for a long time in the show ring; they tend to have a rather flat area on either side of their spines that indicates to me that they are not properly using their back muscles.

I harness completely differently for CDE work. Last year I used open tugs for the first time. I like it, but it comes with its own set of problems.

While discussing this, we have to remember also that true collection originates from the contraction and engagement of the muscles of the underline/stomach. Walk it yourself. In order to engage, your muscles will be contracted in the stomach/core, and you have to be able to release and relax your back and let it swing. It's hard! Yes I was a dressage person in a former life, and still am for that matter.

Anyway, back to my question. How much do "tug stops" help in that downward transition if you are not using breeching? My current Jerald does not have tug stops on it, but I am thinking to have them put on.

Here is my mare Ally in her show ring turnout:

Yes, she is pulling from her saddle. Here we are coming out of a class at the same show:

I just do NOT see a horse in distress or disturbed, and she looks like she is able to move just fine. This is one of the good Estate Horse Supply harnesses I am using, that have a spine channel. I would not consider using this setup across rough terrain or for a long period of time.

And at a CDE, using a Camptown Harness with open tugs:

Same horse, different setup. Let's discuss.

 

[Mnmini]

I harness very similarly for show, also sans breaching. Maybe I'm not REAL tight on the wrap straps, but obviously tight enough that I haven't felt the need to add thimbles for example. I take the first wrap on the wrap straps behind the tug, then one in front of them before buckling.

Much prefer harnessing for CDE's, though both my leather show, and beta marathon harness have a tree, and spine channel. Love your CDE turnout, you're able to see so much more of your mare's pretty head without the "clutter" of the overcheck and associated straps. I WISH the mini associations would kill their "necessity," or better yet exclude them by rule.

 

[Sterling]

Interesting thread.

Thanks for the pictures too. I have a question as well.....what do you mean by "Open tuggs?"

 

[ClickMini]

Open tugs don't have wrap straps, they are just open loops that connect to the saddle and the girth with single straps at the top and bottom. The shaft just rests in the loop, all action to the cart is managed by either the breastcollar or the breeching.

 

[MiniHGal]

I understand why the wrap straps are tight on show harnesses, and hey, you gotta do what you gotta do, but I would say that the girth and wrap straps should be equally tight, or at least the wrap straps should be looser than the girth. Reason being that creates a pinching area, between the girth and wrap strap as the girth is tilted back by the tightness of the wrap straps and pinches skin between the caudal side of the girth and the wrap straps. It can definitely happen.

Also, I would say it is incorrect, regardless of discipline, to pull from the saddle and not the traces. Why would you pull from a narrow band that is held in place by nothing more than the rest of the barrel and tightness of straps? The shoulder is clearly a much more appropriate place to pull from. It would be somewhat akin to having a normal sized back pack that did not have shoulder straps, but was only held on the person by a 2 inch strap around the waist. Not sensible for a backpack.

And I would argue that 'freeing up the shoulder' by pulling from the wrap straps does not work. If the horse is painful in the shoulders or the breastcollar is incorrectly fitted, possibly, but not a normal horse with a correctly placed breastcollar. The horse is still pulling a load, and by transferring it to the front end of the barrel, it does not free up the that end.

As for tug stops, they certainly do help because your shaft loops butts up against the front of the tug stop, so with somewhat looser wrap straps, the cart will still be stopped by the saddle. Now, you can't use open tugs (or too loose of wraps) with them (and no breeching) because I have had the smaller varieties of tug stops get bumped right through the tugs.

 

[hobbyhorse23]

First of all Amy, I want to compliment you on an excellent post. Thank you! I always enjoy discussion topics like this and find them very informative.

You know I'm open to learning new things and I'm always curious WHY people do things the way they do. If the reason is good enough, I may change how I do it too!

The way I learned it for show ring driving really is that the girth is not too tight, in fact a bit on the loose side. The wrap straps come up behind that girth, and yes, they are wrapped down tight and hard. To keep the shafts from running forward in a downward transition. It was always emphasised that the girth was looser in order for the horse to be able to breathe well. The point IS to have the horse pulling more from the saddle. You may or may not see slack in the traces. Also in the way that I learned, the saddle is usually sitting well back off the shoulder, held in place by the crupper, then angled forward toward the elbow. This is to allow the full rotation of the shoulder with no interference. ...

Okay, thoughts on this. First of all a looser cinch is important so the horse can breathe. That's one reason why a tight wrap strap is frowned upon by the larger driving community- how does having one band around the barrel loose negate another tight one? Especially since it's a thinner strap that if not overlying the main girth will simply cut into the horse uncomfortably? The rule is typically that the more pressure a strap is under, the wider it should be for comfort. Partially for that reason I was taught that the overgirth should lie on top of the wider and more-padded cinch, not in front of or behind it. This also prevents the pinching of skin between the overgirth and regular girth. In carriage or CDE driving where this is done, if you tighten the wrap straps too much you will simply cause the girth to be too loose, so ideally you want the girth snug but not tight and the wrap straps the same or with a little more play in them. As far as the angling of the saddle, that often seems to happen naturally due to the shape of the horse but in CDE-style driving it is frowned upon because it is felt that the weight will then rest excessively on the back edge of the saddle and be uncomfortable for the horse. I think this is less a concern in the show ring where the saddles are typically very thin and insufficiently padded anyway. The horse is already working in spagetti straps and it's for such a short time that unless hitched particularly poorly, I suspect they are fine. Heck, we girls manage in high heels to look good and survive! LOL. No it isn't comfortable but you learn to walk in them anyway and look gorgeous. As long as you get to take them off at the end of the night....

I have definitely started putting my saddle further back at shows as it really seems to help the visual clutter at the front of the horse with all the checks, neckstrap hooks, reins, etc.

...On the other hand, the one thing that has ALWAYS bothered me about this is that you are still pressing down on both sides of the spine. I think you can see it in horses that have driven for a long time in the show ring; they tend to have a rather flat area on either side of their spines that indicates to me that they are not properly using their back muscles.

Some of that's the training, some of it is the equipment. As Disneyhorse pointed out in the other thread a hollow back is desired in some disciplines and that's fine as long as it's not from pain. But it happens in carriage driving too if the horse is not comfortable with the saddle they've got and in that case you've got a problem. There was a great discussion recently about saddle fit on one of the other forums I frequent and it was brought up that even if there's a good high gullet on your saddle the horse may still be uncomfortable if the gullet isn't wide enough or the saddle tree does not fit the rest of the back. Discomfort on the spine can cause any horse to hollow out and clamp their spine in an effort to get away from the pain, no checks required.

I'd rather have a treeless saddle with a good gullet for ring work for that reason- less pain if it tips backwards towards the crupper (no tree edge to dig in back there), no pinching on either side of the spine, and easier for the horse to round up into if it is comfortably padded and the girth/overgirth are nicely adjusted. This does not, of course, count the really high end fine harnesses available for larger horses like Freedman's and LaSalle. I think those are a whole 'nother ball game!

I harness completely differently for CDE work. Last year I used open tugs for the first time. I like it, but it comes with its own set of problems.

It certainly does take a bit of work to get an open tug setup functioning correctly. The cart must be perfectly balanced, the overgirth tight enough to keep the shafts close on turns without being too tight, and the traces and breeching perfectly adjusted to keep the shafts from slipping forward or back through the tugs. It helps to have a longer shaft in front of the tug like the Bellcrown so you don't have it falling out while you get your traces adjusted just right on the first few drives!

I know that happened to you and several others with your Pacifics.

While discussing this, we have to remember also that true collection originates from the contraction and engagement of the muscles of the underline/stomach. Walk it yourself. In order to engage, your muscles will be contracted in the stomach/core, and you have to be able to release and relax your back and let it swing. It's hard! Yes I was a dressage person in a former life, and still am for that matter.

That is absolutely correct.

I just do NOT see a horse in distress or disturbed, and she looks like she is able to move just fine. This is one of the good Estate Horse Supply harnesses I am using, that have a spine channel. I would not consider using this setup across rough terrain or for a long period of time.

I agree that Ally does not look distressed or unhappy. I think she is going just fine for the show ring and you know I do love her and admire how far she's come! But since this was brought up as a photo for discussion I'm going to go ahead and nit-pick here if I may.

One of the things I dislike about photos of her and Flirt both is that hollow ahead of their withers. The neck goes up, the neck goes down, the withers come up, the back stays down or flat, and the hips are doing their best back there. Ally doesn't tend to trail out behind herself because she's one of those well-built horses and you drive her from rear to front as you should. But mostly because of that check they can't elevate the root of their necks and without that the chain of muscles through the back cannot fully function. Ally tucks up her abdomen and uses her hindquarters fairly well but she appears to be locked down through the saddle area. Even when you take the check off as in the CDE photo she still tends to travel that way and be a bit resistant. I do see her getting better in that lesson I observed but it's through animation, not relaxation. Again, good for the show ring.

And I happen to know that photo of her coming out of the ring doesn't fairly show how tight her traces are since that ramp slopes downhill! *LOL* Even Kody's CDE harness would have slack there.

Anyway, back to my question. How much do "tug stops" help in that downward transition if you are not using breeching? My current Jerald does not have tug stops on it, but I am thinking to have them put on.

In my opinion tug stops don't help the horse to brake any better by themselves but they do allow you to keep the wrap straps a little bit looser since they don't have to have a deathgrip on the shafts anymore. There is something for the wrap straps to actually wrap around and pull against to stop the cart instead of your safety depending on how well leather grips patent. Of course I've found it grips fairly well, but still! *LOL* I think they're a good idea.

Leia

 

[ClickMini]

Thanks for the great comments you guys. I am still in the process of thinking through these things. I know what bothers me a little and you CDE folks have the same concerns. I decided last year to really delve into the world of a top performance driving trainer, and I did learn A LOT. There still are things that I don't love, and this particular topic is one of those things. I have been thinking about those tug stops particularly so that tightening the wraps doesn't have to be so dramatic. I also really learned what movement is desireable in the show ring in the different classes, and am trying to figure out how to replicate that without some of the things I don't care for as much.

I understand completely what you are saying about the dip in front of the wither, Leia, and I also believe Ally and Flirt traveled with shortened necks, another key indicator of incorrect engagement, when they are in the overcheck. I feel that when I put Flirt in sidechecks it was better. She does not evade the bit by coming behind the contact, but Ally does. That is something that I really have to work hard on. I feel that in the picture shown, Ally is coming up into the bit contact quite comfortably and without resistance in her mouth. The overcheck is keeping her from curling up and going on the forehand. It is a shortcut I know, but I feel the overall picture of her body shape is one that is "almost correct," in a dressage sense. She has clearly engaged her core muscles.

Here are a couple of photos of Flirt in an overcheck and a sidecheck, which I also feel is educational and something to think about. In the overcheck setup, she is clearly more "up" in front and fancier in her movement. In the sidechecks, which to be fair we haven't worked in as much as the overcheck, she is more level moving. My FAVORITE example of Flirt driving, hands down, is the very first section of our Nationals driving video. In my mind she has a beautiful set to her neck, and the overall picture is very nice. We are not extending quite enough, but this is what I'd like to work toward more with Flirt.

In a single pleasure class:

Country Pleasure:

Video I referenced:



She is in sidechecks in this video. She isn't quite as steady as she will eventually be; we had only had her in sidechecks for about 2 weeks at this point.

 

[nightflight]

Clickmini love the color on your show cart! Winona and I knew exactly what we wanted and had an open wheel cart picked out, then saw a closed wheel with your finish...

So, now we have two closed wheel carts

.

Wanted to add that even with the traces snug at the start, by the time I've gone up a hill over of the bump into the ring and done four down transitions and a back my traces get a little droppy.

In order to back in show attire the horse does have to do it from the saddle. Sometimes when they step back up everything doesn't shake out quite right (if you've got things snug for no bouncy shafts) between walking out of the line up and getting out the gate. I don't see it as a real problem though as one lap for pictures is the MOST distance you would have to cover.

 

[hobbyhorse23]

The overcheck is keeping her from curling up and going on the forehand. It is a shortcut I know, but I feel the overall picture of her body shape is one that is "almost correct," in a dressage sense. She has clearly engaged her core muscles.

You've touched on the key difference Amy- it isn't whether the horse is wearing a check or not that makes them engaged, it's what they do when the check is taken off! There are horses who were trained with checks and regularly wear them who are quite correctly engaged and elevating themselves, and if you took the check off they could still do it. Others fall apart if you take the check off because they've never learned to carry themselves. They've learned how to carry and work within the check. THAT is a shortcut to true collection. If however you aren't using it with any intention of creating true collection but rather a winning show frame, it really doesn't bother me as much.

Aren't I odd? I just don't like to see people saying checks CREATE collection, or having the saddle far back CREATES more shoulder motion. It doesn't. It creates a frame, an outline, but does not teach the horse to use their body from the inside out. Not a crime in any way, but not what some people claim it is either.

Leia