Stallion question....

[Mulligans Run]

I have a friend that purchased a stallion for breeding. He is 3 years old, just arrived and is trying his best to accomplish his task (first time, but getting it right).

However, upon physical inspection...he has no testicles. Vet came out - he can feel part of one, and has recommended that she send the stallion back to it's previous owner for a refund. She went one step further and got a sperm count - nothing...zero, zilch, nada.

The previous owner will take him back for a trade

I think this is a bad idea because....

#1 - retained testicles is hereditary...wouldn't others have the same issue?

#2 - what if they don't find the same quality stallion or don't like what they see...are they stuck with 2nd best for the same price?

Opinions needed QUICKLY!!!

If I had sold him to someone I would give a refund, but that's me. He can't even be gelded without major surgery at this point. The owner swears they will drop by the end of summer.

But in the meantime the owners pay for his care, have to house him and get attached to him??? Just not a good situation.

 

[SHANA]

They are entititled to a full refund since number one he was bought as a breeding stallion, and two by age of 3 he should have dropped already. They legally do not have to trade and can get their money back. I asked my friend who is a lawyer.

 

[anyssapark]

At three years old they should be decended by now, and if the vet couldnt feel them, then i too would be concerned that they werent going to come down. But saying that, i have heard of some colts that dont drop fully until 4-5years. So although this is not ideal, i guess its possible.

I personally would send him back if there was another horse your friend would be happy to have and feels is worth her $$.

I too would take a refund if i were the seller, but if there is nothing in a contract that says that they will refund the money, then unfortunately she doesnt really have a leg to stand on. :no: I hope your friend works something out and comes out of the whole deal happy.

 

[Jill]

Oh gosh!

Their best bet may be to trade for an unrelated mare if that's possible, even if to sell her to then purchase a stallion they like from someone else.

I don't know fit he seller is dishonest, or uneducated. I would have real trust issues if someone sold me a stallion with undescended testicles... That is one thing I do always ask about in male horses (either as a stallion, or as a stallion to be gelded). I know to ask / verify from reading of other people's experiences here.

That is too bad about your friend. I feel sorry for him / her, and sorry for the horse, too. That's one thing that a good seller should WANT to fairly represent his/her horse to insure it is as likely as possible to be in a long term, good home.

:no:

 

[Nathan Luszcz]

Stallions that don't drop by 6 months of age risk perminent infertility. If he is azoospermic (no sperm) than he's useless as a breeding stallion, there is no way to get them back.

 

[lvponies]

She bought a breeding stallion who doesn't have the required "tools" to breed. I would insist on returning the stallion and getting a full refund. If the seller absolutely refuses the refund and only offers a trade instead, your friend can either go to court and maybe/maybe not get their money back or they can do the trade. I feel for your friend!!! The seller should have absolutely disclosed to the buyer that the stallion hadn't dropped yet prior to the sale.

 

[Songcatcher]

Was there a CONTRACT?????

 

[Mulligans Run]

I'm not sure if there was a contract or not....I want to say no, because this person believes that a person's word is their contract - you know...like it used to be. I will check though.

Wouldn't you think it would be the honorable thing to do though? For crying out loud the stallion doesn't have anything there.....only a hint of one and no sperm. It would be different if there was one and sperm so that he could successfully breed...but this poor little guy has nothing but the desire.

Regardless of a contract, the horse has a health condition that will likely require major surgery to correct. Seems to me that's grounds alone for a refund....but again - that's me.

:

 

[Becky]

The current owner should have the horse ultrasounded to find out exactly where the testicles are. If they are above the inguinal ring, then the horse should definitely go back. If they are below, then they will likely come down.

Case in point. I posted this on another thread but I will repost here.

As to the issue of retained testicles or not, vets can be WAY wrong!! I took a young stallion (3 yrs) back this spring that I sold as a weanling. As a weanling, both testicles were down. In January this year, I was contacted by his owner who told me that the horse only had one testicle. She couldn't find but one testicle and her vet confirmed it. I recommended she take him to another vet for an ultrasound to see if the testicle was above or below the inguinal ring. She took him to a different vet who only palpated again, and along with a visiting vet at the clinic, confirmed the first diagnosis that the colt only had one testicle, was a cryptorchid and needed to be gelded. I had her ship the horse back to me. The day he arrived here in early April, I palpated him myself and felt the 'missing' testicle sitting right above the other one! Good grief! [SIZE=18pt]3 vets[/SIZE] said this horse was a cryptorchid (monorchid technically) which he was not!!!

I had my vet out to confirm my findings which he did. With stimulation, the colt now has two large testicles normally descended in the scrotum!

I would want to know as the buyer and the seller where the testicles are located before any further decisions were made.

 

[Mona]

I think if I was them, I would go strictly for a full cash refund! If the seller refuses, I would file suit, if it is feasable, even in Small Claims Court.

:

 

[Songcatcher]

I'm not sure if there was a contract or not....I want to say no, because this person believes that a person's word is their contract - you know...like it used to be. I will check though.

Wouldn't you think it would be the honorable thing to do though? For crying out loud the stallion doesn't have anything there.....only a hint of one and no sperm. It would be different if there was one and sperm so that he could successfully breed...but this poor little guy has nothing but the desire.

Regardless of a contract, the horse has a health condition that will likely require major surgery to correct. Seems to me that's grounds alone for a refund....but again - that's me.

:

"Wouldn't it be the honorable thing to do?" Probably so, but I think it depends on the circumstances and the price paid. And I am saying this as a buyer, not a seller. I bought a stallion last year. The man I bought him from had bought him in a package and had not used him. He was mature. Testicles descended. I bred him to two mares this spring. Both came back into heat. I suspected a problem and took the stallion to the vet for a fertility test. NO SPERM! He had all the desire but was shooting blanks. This stallion has produced many foals, but none registered in the last few years. I had him gelded and I believe he is going to make a great (and beautiful) pet. I will lose money on him, but that is one of the pitfalls of being in the business.

Do I expect a refund? No. Would it be nice if the seller offered me a refund or trade? Certainly, but no way am I going to take him to court over it or even have hard feelings about it. It is just one of those things. I do not feel the seller misrepresented the horse to me or OWES me anything.

Now, if my situation had been one where I had spent multiple thousands of dollars, buying a horse from his breeder, having fully discussed the horse being intended as my main herd sire, I would look at it somewhat differently. Certainly, circumstances are different in different cases.

 

[Ashley]

Well in this world there are very few honorable people left. Lessen learned. When buying a breeding stallion always get something in writting about everything there and working.

Also it makes me kind of worried.........the person that bought the horse didnt bother checking for them BEFORE They bred him?

I had my stallion checked this spring as I couldnt find his second one.......it was there all along just tucked up and alot smaller then the other.

HOwever when useing a stallion for breeding you should always make sure they are there first.

 

[Buckskin gal]

I think any reputable seller would want to keep clients happy. If the horse was bought for breeding the seller should have checked to see that both testicles were in place. If the horse cost you a lot of money, I would pursue getting a refund unless I was offered another stallion that I liked as well as the first. If not much money was put out on the horse it may not be worth your time but then there is always what to do with the horse. I know a person who bought a colt from a well known breeder for breeding purposes, didn't like the colt the following year and asked for money back after only paying about $250.00 for him!! Thought that was a little ridiculous. Hope the buyer looks at all angles and decides what she thinks best for the situation. Mary

 

[ionafarm]

This is a perfect example of why there should always be a written sales contract which specifies any guarantees and remedies. We provide this on all sales off the farm. If I had sold this horse, the contract would have stated whether or not the horse was guaranteed to be fertile, and what the buyer could expect if he was guaranteed fertile and turneds out not to be.

We have had this happen to us twice, and both times we were entitled to select another horse. In neither case did we like the second horse as much as the first stallion, but that is our problem, not the sellers. It would be hard to search for just the stallion you want, and then expect the seller to have a second one that you like as much. If the Buyer expects a a cash refund, then they need to insist on that being in the written contract. In one case we sold the replacement and took a loss of several thousand dollars, but that was our choice and not the fault of the seller.

I empathize with the buyer, as we'v been there, but, they should have checked the stallion befoe purchase and gotten the guarantee in writing. We had this happen once with a colt that we sold, too. The contract said the buyer got full credit for the purchase price towards any horse on our sales list, and they selected another stalloion. No problem for either of us, because it was all in writing at the time of sale.

If someone has a horse which they want to sell "as is" then they should state that in writing, too, or take it to a sale and sell it "as is". Of course they'll get less money fo it, but won't have to worry about having to honor the guarantee.

Despite the fact that we all love and enjoy our horses, the buying, selling and breeding of horses is a business and should be conducted as such.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

It's a very good example of why you really do have to check for yourself.

There is NO way I would buy a stallion without checking he had two, fully descended testicles.

That in itself is not real safeguard but at least I know they are there.

I would also want to see DNA proven progeny.

In this day and age assuming people are honest and that your word is your bond is a mugs game I am afraid, unless you know the people very well.

Even then I would have a contract as it protects both parties.

 

[Mulligans Run]

It's funny because when I sell a horse I tell the prospective buyer all the flaws...conformational, temperment, breeding, etc. It's important to me that my horses stay where they go. And while I know there are no guarantees in life, I feel that my horses have a better chance of finding a forever home if I'm upfront with the buyer. Guess I'm just odd that way...but I'd like to think that someone else would do the same.

And I realize things get overlooked. This new buyer didn't think to ask that the equipment was all there, or even in the right place...it's been a learning experience for her that may be a costly one. Heaven knows it's already been disappointing.

I recently sold a stallion and the buyer never asked for a measurement. We had sticked him in January and he was 31" which I thought was tall for a yearling, but we never gave it another thought. He got off the truck and she burst into tears because he was 34".....I never questioned it - they put him back on the truck brought him back and I paid them in full. I don't want a bad rep...I would like to think everyone else was that way too. It's sad that they aren't. But that was a learning experience for us as well.....and we do have a contract, but it didn't state a height in it. We'll be revising that aspect of it.

 

[Miniv]

This type of situation is a wonderful learning experience for everyone.........although, a hard lesson for the buyer involved!

Many of us - as breeders - are constantly adjusting and improving their sales contracts to cover things like this that may come up. The important thing is that there is a CONTRACT.

Every sale can be different. And a contract arrangement needs to reflect that, IMO. A sale could be for a weanling colt or for a mature stallion. Because of the pedigree, show records, and/or proof of fertility, the contract and guarrantees could vary greatly. The price for them will also vary greatly!

The important thing is that the CONTRACT is written fairly, so that BOTH parties are satisfied.

MA

 

[Nathan Luszcz]

If you buy a stallion for breeding purposes, you should have a BSE (breeding soundness exam) done, no question. If you don't have one done, don't expect to have a fertile stallion, expect to have a lottery

You may win, or you may not! You don't know until after you paid for him. A BSE is done like a prepurchase exam, paid for by the buyer before the sale goes through.

 

[HGFarm]

What a shame. I agree with Becky- I would want something from a vet.

Also, many farms have a farm credit rather than cash back. I have seen a LOT of those.

 

[zacharyfarms]

Never underestimate a "verbal contract" in a court of law. If the seller was told that the buyer wanted to purchase a stallion for breeding, that would still be a legal contract. Any emails or other correspondence would help. If, however, she signed and accepted a contract that said the horse was sold "as is" with no warranties then that is a different story. My sales contracts all include the paragraph:

Warranties

Seller makes no warranties expressed or implied, including warranties of fitness for any particular purpose other than the following exceptions:

After this statement then I list any exceptions to the statement such as " height guarantee, breeding soundness, clear title . The warranties of fitness for any particular purpose is the key statement. Particular purpose could be breeding, foaling, showing etc. If it does include a statement including giving warranty for breeding soundness then that is a contract for a breeding sound stallion. If it is omitted and you have signed it even though you were expecting a breeding sound stallion then you will have a harder time winning a case against the seller and just the spoken "agreement" would be better in that case.