Some Ideas for AMHR

[andi]

Finally settled back in after Nationals and have been thinking about it alot. It seemed that there where lots of conversations about how it could be improved for next year. I plan on starting to go to the conventions and before I open my mouth and everyone says shutup you crazy, I was hoping to see what everyone else thought. :bgrin

1.

The Awards.

It seems that with the amount of money coming in from entries/stalls that awards could be improved on. If money really is to tight, I for one would be more than willing to pay $52 per stall instead. I would love to see plaques awarded for the top ten horses.

2.

Order of Go.

Many of the classes are getting ridiculously huge. It is getting very difficult for the Stewarts to find all the entries before the class begins when they are looking for 70 horses. On top of that I have noticed a trend by a few people high in the registry to take a smoke break at the ingate, so that other horses go in first. Some of the time they aren't even lit as they frantically search for anyone else in the class who hasn't gone in yet. I have even witnessed them telling the Stewarts to call the rest of the horses and threaten to close the gate as they have horses in the class and want the others to go in first.

An order of go is easy enough and would take all the "politics" out of going into the ring. Plus with a posted order of go everything would just run smoother at the ingate. Win win for all involved.

3.

Point system.

I was looking at lots of the results, having been told last year that there system of calculating the winner was created to benefit the horses that where the most consistent. Which would make sense. But some of the results I saw had a horse receiving 1.1.11 beating a horse that was placed 1.2.3 That whole idea blew my mind. Also a few of our National Grands where gated under 1 judge and horses that placed behind them where much more consistently placed very high.

Also if you have question about the way the end result is gotten to, you are given a large packet that involves lining the cards up and placing circles and slashes through placings to come up with the end placing that only a very mathematically inclined person could logically explain. If simple averages were used the more consistently placed horse would win, every time, and the average person could see exactly to the point why they placed where they did. For example, 10 points awarded for first, 9 for second, etc... So for a horse receiving 1,1,11 would get 20 points. The horse who got 1,2,3 would receive 27 points, would be the winner.

Hoping to here everyone else's opinions,

James

 

[Mulligans Run]

Touche' James for taking the time to post this. I fully agree with all the suggestions you have made. I would love to see better awards for the top placings, and plaques for top 10. Order of go is almost mandatory since there are those that will literally hide and wait to swoop in with their horse last - not sure why, but I've seen it. And I saw the exact same thing with the points...a horse that got 1, 2, 11 beat out a horse that was 1, 3, 2...go figure.

 

[Sandee]

We went to just watch this year but have hopes for furture year.

On the point system - I don't really understand their point system and haven't tried so can't comment on that.

The order of go - and this is just my opinion - trainers and long time show people are always going to try to manipulate the order that they show so no matter what system you use they'll look for the loopholes, even to the point of asking for specific numbers, if that's the way you're choosing the "go".

The plaques - I don't see paying any higher prices for stalling than absolutely necessary. The price of showing is already very high especially with the transportation figured into it. I love trophies as well as anybody but I think the big ribbons are enough.

 

[Frankie]

With the point system, I studied it a ton last year, so I do understand it. It started back in the Bible days and I can not see them ever changing it. Don't particular like it, but understanding it does help.

Had several top tens and the ribbons are fine with me. Makes no difference if it's a ribbon, trophy, or whatever. Just happy to participate and receive what is handed out.

Not sure why an Order to Go is important. I did not see anyone, ammy or trainer gain any type of advantage by doing so. It must be a superstition thing with them, but IMO it made no difference with the placings. Lisa D. likes to go first, she had some National Champions and also some gates. Brenda P. goes where ever, as did Mike M., both had National Champions, both had gates and both are trainers.

For me, didn't see much that needed changed, it ran great!

 

[Jill]

I have not yet attended the Nationals but have had horses there three different years.

One thing that I would like to see changed is that I'd like to see HOF points awarded through 10th place at the Nationals...

You can have a horse place 7th (8th, 9th or 10th) and beat more horses at Nationals than he did the entire year leading up to Nationals, and he won't get a single HOF point for what is actually a BIG win.

 

[spazkat]

2.Order of Go.

Many of the classes are getting ridiculously huge. It is getting very difficult for the Stewarts to find all the entries before the class begins when they are looking for 70 horses. On top of that I have noticed a trend by a few people high in the registry to take a smoke break at the ingate, so that other horses go in first. Some of the time they aren't even lit as they frantically search for anyone else in the class who hasn't gone in yet. I have even witnessed them telling the Stewarts to call the rest of the horses and threaten to close the gate as they have horses in the class and want the others to go in first.

An order of go is easy enough and would take all the "politics" out of going into the ring. Plus with a posted order of go everything would just run smoother at the ingate. Win win for all involved.

With a "huge" class, having to enter the ring in a certain order would unnecessarily complicate things. There are all sorts of reasons that someone may be delayed a moment or 2 on their way to the ring (showing horses in a prior class, equipment changes /repairs, clothing changes.. etc) and I just dont see holding up half a class from even entering the ring because someone is running late or wants an extra minute to finish a cigarette. In some instances it might "look" like a person is just standing around, when in fact they are waiting for a groom to get something from the stall area or someone to grab them a quick soda before their 4th class in a row. In a USAE (AHSA) show there is a time limit ( I believe its 2 minutes from the time your class is called) when they just close the gate unless you have a gate hold due to a class conflict or something. This may be something to consider if people are dragging out the class with late entires.

 

[bridlebit]

I would also like to see plaques as awards. I would also suggest that the placings be called out 10th through 1st so that the excitement builds. I would also like to see the top ten horses places in their order and stay in the ring when everyone else is excused so that recognition could be given. These days if you make top ten you have done really well and recognition is deserved.

 

[Belinda]

1.

The Awards.

It seems that with the amount of money coming in from entries/stalls that awards could be improved on. If money really is to tight, I for one would be more than willing to pay $52 per stall instead. I would love to see plaques awarded for the top ten horses.

James

Awards , I have been trying for years to get rid of the UGLY BROWN ribbon

:

2.Order of Go.

Many of the classes are getting ridiculously huge. It is getting very difficult for the Stewarts to find all the entries before the class begins when they are looking for 70 horses. On top of that I have noticed a trend by a few people high in the registry to take a smoke break at the ingate, so that other horses go in first. Some of the time they aren't even lit as they frantically search for anyone else in the class who hasn't gone in yet. I have even witnessed them telling the Stewarts to call the rest of the horses and threaten to close the gate as they have horses in the class and want the others to go in first.

An order of go is easy enough and would take all the "politics" out of going into the ring. Plus with a posted order of go everything would just run smoother at the ingate. Win win for all involved.

Not sure how a class can be Ridiculously huge ?? I thought Nationals was all about competition !

Next the it is not the Stewards job to line up the classes at the gate. They have a hired Gate person for that..

Some of the people that have just come out of a class before might have just been in the ring for up to as long as an hour !!

: So yes if you are a smoker ( as I am a EX-Smoker ) You sure might want to take a pause for one or two puffs.!! No big deal, as the way they take them in , one at a time if there are 70 -100 horses in class you have plenty of time to take a minute to recap your thoughts !!

I show at AMHA and they do have a order of go.!! One reason as I was there when they actually had physical fights over who went in first or last !! :new_shocked: :new_shocked: So yes they had to go to order of go, to prevent the Madness !!! :no:

I do not believe we are at that point ! At least I did not see any thing like that going on ..

Point system.

This point system has worked for many many other breeds, Saddlebreds, etc.. I say it is better than having to pay $60 or more in entry fees to cover the cost of Two Judges we just throw their opinion away !!!!

:

 

[Frankie]

BUT, when you win that ugly brown ribbon, it's really not so ugly!!!!!!!

:

Seriously, it's not.............it's much prettier than the imaginary ribbon that never made my hand.

Won an ugly brown ribbon the past two years,,,,,,,,,,,,it's kind of now my goal. :lol:

 

[Aubrey715]

I agree with you about the awards. The ribbon i got for Reserve is nothing different than the ribbons i get at regular shows. And instead of it saying Reserve on it, it says 2nd. I agree that since they are pulling in so much money they should give better awards since it is Nationals.

I also agree they need to do something about the order of go. I saw people get into arguments about who would go first or last. And i saw people taking smoke breaks so they could go in last. I even saw horses let in the ring after the gate had been shut just to make sure they were last. Now that is something they need to fix. After the gate shuts no more horses are supposed to be allowed in the ring.

The point system is very confusing and i don't understand how a horse that wins can get a 1-2-11 and the horse that won reserve gets a 1-3-2 because the horse that was reserve was a lot more consistent. I know the top to placings win the class but that just doesn't make since about that.

 

[andi]

Well if most are happy with the ribbons, no need to modify. I would probably be just as annoyed paying extra for something I didn't want, so can understand that. I do like Belinda's idea of doing away with the brown one though. There are hundreds of colors, we really should be able to find Ten nice ones. LOL

As far as the Order of go, I have watched it and been involved in it too many times to not realize how true it is. I do understand though if you don't see it with your own eyes you would never believe it. Like I said before the cigarette wasn't even lit one of the times, and it was not after having just come out of the ring. Additionally, this is at the ingate, as people walk by people are smoking around the horses. I'm sorry for not realizing the difference between Stewart and official gate keeper, which ever one, I watched them be told by one particular exhibitor to announce that the gate would be closed. The Gate Keeper never told this person to enter, just announced the other persons number over the loud speaker. I also watched as this trainers amateur pulled the same thing. He succeeded in entering the ring last, gate was closed. Then a person in a wheel chair came up who hadn't made it there in time. Well once they where in this trainers amateur moved out of line and got in behind the person. Now I am sure there is some logical reason for all of this, but odds tell me that if the same person is last in the ring every time, and they are always the one with a broken halter or needing an unlit cigarette then there is something more going on. I played this game last year, because I honestly was about to miss my first class and heard the announcement that the gate was about to be closed, so I stopped getting my half prepared horse ready and ran down into the ring, only to find that the two people who I had just past standing waiting with the Gate person where in my class. I should have been the bigger person but for the rest of the show I made the mistake of playing the childish game. This year I didn't bother, and saw the same thing happen to a number of other people. If we do not put in rules to stop it I am afraid we will end up with the same thing happening in this registry.

As far as the points. I am only proposing a tabulating system that makes the horse that the judges agree the most on to win, not the ones that they don't. Though I would love 5 judges, dropping the high and low, my proposal has nothing to do with that. Stay with three if you don't like 5, but at least look at tabulating it differently.

 

[Ms THE]

I had the gate shut on my under model gelding (the first class of the day) they didn't call my horse or look for him, my trainer ran and got to the gate before that last horse had even gotten to line and they wouldn't let her in :no: I was P----D!!!!!!! Later that day the gate was long closed and the judges had already started judging the get of sire class and they let someone in (who ended up winning the class). I approached the girl at the ingate and asked why he had special preference and she told me the gate wasn't closed yet! THAT WAS A BUNCH OF BULL BECAUSE EVERYONE AT THE GATE COULD NOT BELEIVE IT! I think it is Nationals and you pay alot of money, they could let you in the gate, but if you close it in my horses face, than it should get closed in EVERYONES FACE! None of our 9 other horses were late for a class and being the first class of the day they could have made a barn call, my horse was up at the ring at 830am on the dot and they closed the gate. It was the lightest day of the show (geldings) but they had to rush the gate closed. It REALLY put a bad taste in my mouth! I heard of a person who made the cut in a driving class and when she went to go back in the ring they would not let her and told her she didn't make the cut. Afterwards she watched the tape and she had made the cut, to bad the class was already run.

 

[carolcrit]

hey i have a comment also My granddaugther won the over costume class was in the leadline class 1 pmc class inbeteen . had said when we checked in for costume we had a big change and would go fast but being she won we had to wait for the last to go out . we changed her very fast and the horse also . the reserve costume went in and told the gate keep Maddie was right behind they would NOt let her in this was her last year in leadline and she cried. then we had to very qiuckly change her to driving under to a dress with one class inbetween. there when eight kids in the costume that also went into the leadline then one class and a thrid 7 and under class come on lets check the timeing and placement of these classes A grandma

 

[midnight star stables]

I have not yet attended the Nationals but have had horses there three different years.

One thing that I would like to see changed is that I'd like to see HOF points awarded through 10th place at the Nationals...

You can have a horse place 7th (8th, 9th or 10th) and beat more horses at Nationals than he did the entire year leading up to Nationals, and he won't get a single HOF point for what is actually a BIG win.

I really agree Jill, it should count! :new_shocked:

 

[Laura]

I would also like to see plaques as awards. I would also suggest that the placings be called out 10th through 1st so that the excitement builds. I would also like to see the top ten horses places in their order and stay in the ring when everyone else is excused so that recognition could be given. These days if you make top ten you have done really well and recognition is deserved.

[SIZE=12pt]I'd love to see this too, but it's done 1st-10th to allow time for the win photos. Going backwards would delay the next class or cause gates to be held for the top two handlers, if they are in the next class. I'd love to see it, but it's just not practical.[/SIZE]

hey i have a comment also My granddaugther won the over costume class was in the leadline class 1 pmc class inbeteen . had said when we checked in for costume we had a big change and would go fast but being she won we had to wait for the last to go out . we changed her very fast and the horse also . the reserve costume went in and told the gate keep Maddie was right behind they would NOt let her in this was her last year in leadline and she cried. then we had to very qiuckly change her to driving under to a dress with one class inbetween. there when eight kids in the costume that also went into the leadline then one class and a thrid 7 and under class come on lets check the timeing and placement of these classes A grandma

[SIZE=12pt]That should not have happened. TIMELY tack changes should absolutely be permitted. By timely I mean, FAST, right there in the paddock, not out of site of the gate person. We have our older girls strip & change between driving classes right there, behind blankets held up by volunteers of course.

: [/SIZE]

 

[Versatility Farm & Training]

I agree!

The awards are ok, but not much different than what i would get at any local show. The order of go is a good idea for the halter classes. The smoking really agrivated me. I heard announcments for no smoking in the barns, I thought the arena padock counted as a barn, but apparently not. If you are a smoker and need a ciggarette between classes walk to the door or an opening to smoke. I was very affended at the people including big trainers that sat in the middle of the padock arena smoking where it was hard for non-smokers to get away from the smoke. There was one driving class that a driver was parked right in front of me smoking and holding his cigarette out in front of my horse letting the smoke go in her face! How rude, that I had to move because somone was smoking in the barns.

As far as the point system, it makes no sence and needs replaced. Stay with 3 judges but take the average score. 10 point for 1st place and 1 point for 10th place and then take the average of the three, how hard is that. The most consistant horse wins that way.

 

[Coventry Lane Farm]

One thing that we would like to see is that the Roadster driving classes be divided in height classes instead of the "Under" and "Over" designation. I know that this wasn't part of the original thread, but when they were asking for the "reverse on the jog trot" in Roadster it looked like there was going to be collisons occur with everyone going at that rate of speed with that many in the class. JMO ....since their is some changes to possibly need attention.

I did notice about the point system of judging and plaques would be nice instead of a ribbon but I was just excited about placing there no matter what the award was considering the high quality of horses that was there. We came home with 6 Top Tens and a very close Championship as well by missing it only by one point..

 

[sfmini]

I have to disagree James on the awards. I would like tho to see the Reserve Nat'l champ trophy upgraded, it is a bit cheapish. AMHA is discussing eliminating either the ribbons or the plaques for the top ten horses.

Order of go would create chaos, especially in driving! I do go in last, not for drama, but to have a fresher horse that hasn't been standing a long time in a big halter class or taken a few trips around the ring before judging begins. Just my personal preference.

I would like the point system changed, start with 1 point for 10th and up to 10 points, average the score and use the call judge to break ties.

 

[jdhand]

James, I like the idea of the point system you have mentioned. It makes sense. Order of go might be confusing, but I cannot believe people would put so much effort into being last in line. I am glad you are going to convention. I wish I could. I went last year and had a great time. Just remember to get things changed you have to request it in writing and follow exact procedure. I will help you anyway I can. I was a legal secretary for many years. I really like the point system idea you have suggested and think it is worth trying.

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

the point system actually does make sense kinda.

I mean the call judge changes often enough and that seems fair to me. If it is all averaged out then people would say Judge A is friends with exhibitor B and that is why they win all the time this way even if that were to be the case ( I dont believe it is but then again perhaps I choose to be naieve) the call judge changing wouldnt give Judge A the power to consistently place the exhibitor and have it count fully this way Judge B can come in and change things up a bit when they are call judge. I could be wrong but I understood it that the judges arent even aware what classes they are the call judge on????