Selling horses without papers?

[Little Bits]

I am curious as to why people sell horses without papers. I am trying to understand the reasoning.

 

[susanminiponygirl]

Some times if the seller is selling as strictly pet quality, at a pet quality price, and does not want the animal bred, they will sell without papers. The horse may have conformation problems, foaling dystocias, etc.

 

[Mona]

I agree with the above post!

 

[Sue_C.]

Some times if the seller is selling as strictly pet quality, at a pet quality price, and does not want the animal bred, they will sell without papers. The horse may have conformation problems, foaling dystocias, etc.

IMHO, selling without papers does NOT DETER those who are greedy or ignorant enough to breed poor quality/poorly conformed, or otherwise non-breeding animals. Those people will breed reguardless of papers, unless they can be informed and educated by the seller, as to WHY that animal shouldn't be bred. If we as breeders/sellers would pay more attention to who we sell to, and do our best in informing the buyers...perhaps the breeding of these animals can be lessened.

As far as selling what one has decided is "pet quality", or otherwise un-breedable without papers...this can be doing the animal a huge dis-service. Many horses that would never make a halter contender, can go on to become the most extraordinary DRIVING horses...not every horse is a halter winner...but they STILL deserve a chance to be used and possibly shown in other diciplines. Once those papers are with-held...the animal has no chance of "becoming the best it can be"...what a shame that could be.

Just my take on the subject... I strive to develop a well-made and put together horse that can do it all, but driving is my passion. I would pay more for a working horse, than one that simply looks good standing still...any day...breedable...or not.

 

[JWC sr.]

We have on occasion sold a horse without papers for exactly those reasons. On the colts we geld them before we sell them without papers as pets only and on the fillies we try and put them into homes where they will be pets only and explain to the new owners why they are being sold that way. I wish there was some economical way to spay for lack of a better word the pet fillies also.

 

[Little Bits]

I can understand not wanting a mare bred because of conformation or foaling dystocias. However mares can still be useful for youth projects or no conformation required classes.

However I don't understand where a gelding would not have his papers passed along. I have seen some nice horses that had no apparent problems be sold without papers, and then can't be used for fun classes or youth classes, because they have no papers. Maybe there conformation isn't perfect but they can live productive lives as youth, driving, showmanship, and jumpers, or even 4h fun shows.

I realize there is no way of knowing if the animal was registered, because of the lack of an identification program to find out who was the previous owners. I do realize that AMHA is taking steps in that direction. Racehorses are dna typed prior to registering and are also tattooed. Which makes it easier to track down papers.

I have taken a nice black and white pinto rescued from an amish auction he was only 28" tall was a stallion(I gelded him), nice conformation, his bite was off and should not have been bred to mares. We couldn't track down the papers. I sold him to a family who plans on fun showing him. Im sure he had some foals out there who knows if they were registred or not. My guess is not. I guess my point is did selling him as a stallion without papers(because with or without papers he sired foals) really stop him from being bred to mares? Won't it be more responsable as a owner to geld him or sell him with a geld contract, and send him on his way with papers. He still adds to the problem of breeding horses with flaws and horses being sold without papers.

 

[LaVern]

I send from 10-15 colts out to kids and families every year without papers. I tell them to let me know when they have been gelded and I will send them the papers. A few do- most don't. These people usually take very good care of the horses and I get pictures and love going to open shows and parades to see them and the horses don't give a hoot if they are registered or not.-- But there goes a bit of money for the registries. Now- maybe when times are a little tighter in the offices they will finally consider putting a spot for the breeder to check --no breeding on both fillies and colts papers. It would be so easy.

I would gladly register these little foals if I knew that these colts and fillies that I don't feel are good enough to be breeding stallions and brood mares are not going to be producing registered offspring. And I am not going to keep them for years, feed them, give them shots, halter break them,and geld them and do their feet for 250 dollars.

It does not look good for me, when you go to the stud book and you find that an old brood mare of mine has only had 5 foal because the others have not been registered. Renee

 

[Magic]

I sell my horses with papers, pet quality or not. The only exception for me would be if a horse has gone oversize for their registry. Many times a first-time mini buyer has purchased an inexpensive pet-quality horse from me, and then later ventured into the show ring, perhaps with the horse shown by a youth, or in performance like driving, jumping, or obstacle. They couldn't have done that without registration papers.

 

[~Lisa~]

I can see both sides of this. I personally have sold all my horses with papers but I also wish there was something we could do with minis like AKC does with dogs and allows for a breeding or non breeding animal.

Guess that will never happen at all until someone writes up a proposal though?

 

[susanminiponygirl]

For example, I have a filly here that I am selling to an approved home only, without papers. She has a twisted knee and is cow hocked. Would make a wonderful pet or companion or therapy animal. However I do stress to the potential buyer that she should not be bred and may develop arthritis in the knee and she should not be ridden or driven, or any occupation that puts undue stress on her legs. I know this will not stop them from breeding her, but there are homes out there that do not want to breed and just want a sweet as sugar pet. If they want papers on her, I will give them the applications and they can send in the fees.

My pet peeve is the people who want registered horses, but never bother to do the transfer work. They just want the certificate.

Just my two cents...

 

[Anne]

I use to feel that every horse should go with their papers, but as the market dropped and minis started selling for little or nothing I have reconsidered my position.

I will not let my breeding quality horses go for these prices (I'm talking $200"truthfully haven't sold one for that kind of idiocy yet anyway) with papers. Locally that's where they are at, auctions are much worse.

I have found people in most cases do not want anything but the horse and papers.

Way too many here, the pet market is swamped with poor (terrible) quality minis and people who will breed anything to anything.

But that market is finally getting saturated as I have seen more ads where folks are done and giving them away when the weather here in Wisconsin starts getting cooler and they lose interest.

They really do seem to think, broke to ride , trained to drive, a mare for breeding or stallion, (my boys sell gelded)definitely registered should be $200. I would never do that, and am aware that at least here not sending the papers will deter some folks in the area from buying and breeding but does not insure a long term good home.

Somehow the local "pet market" seemed to evolve and now no matter what the horse looks like or problems it might have , if it has papers they think they can get an extra humdred dollars for the foal and WILL breed.

Geldings do go with papers but they are rarely if ever transferred.

 

[PrestigeMiniHorses]

I see from all the aspects out there... I have to agree I think it would be nice if we had the limited papers ordeal for breeding purposes....The economy is so bad right now some people just won't care at what they are producing. So now matter what someone will breed regardless. Sad we all know but look at some people with DOGS. I think when selling horses its important to know what the plans are for the horse. As people have already said a poor conformed horse can and will sometimes perform like theres no tomorrow. I don't think its fair to restrain the horse from being the best it can be...

 

[lilfolks]

I agree with Sue C. Every horse deserves to have his papers go with him/her if they have papers to begin with.

Selling a horse and not giving the papers doesn't mean that horse won't be bred by any means. Once the horse leaves your hands, is paid for and goes to the new owner it is their horse to do with what they wish. If the horse has papers, he/she deserves to keep them until death. That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it.

Joyce

 

[JWC sr.]

I understand and appreciate where you folks are coming from, but with that said we will stick to our policy of removing papers from horses that do not meet our criteria for a registered horse. And yes we do produce a few "pet quality" only babies each year, anyone that tells you that doesn't breed many horses or has been extremely lucky, no matter the size of the farm you are talking about.

Personally I would support a non-breeding box addition to the papers of either registry as it has been sucessful with other registries that we have been part of such as AKC.

Be that as it is though, I do believe that any horse is owed the extra work it takes to place it in a loving and rewarding home where it will be taken care of and treated with the respect it deserves.

 

[Miniv]

In a perfect world, I would agree with just about everyone........ BUT it isn't a perfect world.

I do NOT agree with selling a broodmare that has all sorts of problems to someone with her papers, just because she has them.

I do NOT agree with selling a special little (almost a) dwarf - or giving away either - just because the person was able to obtain them.

Here is another aspect that hasn't come up........ What happens if a person buys a lovely, highly bred filly from a well known and longtime breeder. The filly is delivered and the breeder promises to mail the papers. Papers never arrive. And after phone calls and letters to the seller/breeder for over TWO YEARS, nothing has happened. The seller has now gotten out of the business!

And now the people who currently have the filly -- which is now a MARE -- need to sell her........NOW WHAT???? How can this beautiful horse be sold properly????

 

[Relic]

Here if you buy a pet thats exactly what you get is a pet meaning no papers and the price your paying is pet price 300/500 price is no different then buying an unpapered dog in this area. lf you want a papered mini buy a papered one it's usually a better conformed one doesn't have an off bite or has leg or breeding problems and we'll stand behind it if it's a tall weaner and it goes over 34" any time before age 5 no questions asked on your money back..we've sold pets with papers in the past and stopped that pretty darn fast when they started showing up in the ring...if l'm not comfortable showing them because there not up to par your not using my farm name to do it....

my reason for selling with no papers.

 

[eagles ring farm]

we always sell with the papers

we had 1 pet quality filly last year

with a bite that was off

and we sold her to a non breeding pet home

with an understanding that she should not be bred

But she still had her papers

 

[Nathan Luszcz]

I use to feel that every horse should go with their papers, but as the market dropped and minis started selling for little or nothing I have reconsidered my position.I will not let my breeding quality horses go for these prices (I'm talking $200"truthfully haven't sold one for that kind of idiocy yet anyway) with papers.

So lemme get this straight... "I'm going to make the horse worth less because you paid less"?

 

[Mona]

I agree with Sue C. Every horse deserves to have his papers go with him/her if they have papers to begin with.Selling a horse and not giving the papers doesn't mean that horse won't be bred by any means. Once the horse leaves your hands, is paid for and goes to the new owner it is their horse to do with what they wish. If the horse has papers, he/she deserves to keep them until death. That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it.

Joyce

What if a foal was born with bad conformation problem (s) (ie. bad bite or twisted legs or dwarfy characteristics etc.) and the breeder decides at birth they are not even going to register the horse? Is it then OK to sell them without papers because they are not yet registered?

 

[Miniv]

we always sell with the paperswe had 1 pet quality filly last year

with a bite that was off

and we sold her to a non breeding pet home

with an understanding that she should not be bred

But she still had her papers

Like I said......it's not a perfect world. What happens when THEY sell the filly to someone who wants to breed her, especially since she came with papers?

And there is also Mona's post to consider...... Not every horse has papers or should have them.

We have several full sized horses on our property......only two out of 7 actually purchased and only ONE with papers! (Five were rescues in different ways) ..... So, why are big horses so different??????????