Rhino Shots for pregnant miniatures?

[Nancy G]

I`ve heard, a lot of breeders Do and just as many do NOT, give the rhino shots at 5, 7 and 9 months.

Some time ago, I was on a site that stated the reasons, not to give the shots to miniature horses. Does anyone know this site? I wish I had book marked it but -- I didn`t.

: How many breeders here, do or do not give the shot`s ~ why?

We have been very fortunate & not had a problem with late term losses. (15 years) For that reason, we have not given the shots (If it isn`t broken, don`t fix it) Should we start & if so, why?

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[Nathan Luszcz]

We suggest that all of our clients give Pneumabort-K shots at months 5, 7, and 9. I've never seen an abortion because of the injection. That's in big horses, but I've never heard of anything mini-specific.

 

[wildoak]

I've given the 5-7-9 shots for years, although I don't always do the 9 month shot. Have never to my knowledge had any issues with them, and my vets have always strongly recommended doing it.

Jan

 

[Becky]

I quit giving any vaccinations during pregnancy unless the mare had not been previously vaccinated. After having several late term abortions, with most occuring shortly after vaccinating, I decided for me not to vaccinate during pregnancy. The abortions may not have anything to do with the vaccine specifically, but anything that will cause a mare to run a fever can kill a fetus. It's not worth it to me. I now vaccinate all of my mares after foaling and before being bred back. I haven't had any late term abortions now in several years.

 

[ChrystalPaths]

I've always been of the same mind as you Nancy, if it ain't broke...

 

[mistyrose]

I did have a newly purchased mare abort due to the virus. I always give the vaccines myself so I know exactly what is in them. You must use the killed virus vaccine. It is called Pneumabort-K. Make sure your regular vaccine does not include Rhino when you give it to your pregnant mares! The rhino in the combination vaccine is a live virus and will cause a foal to miscarry.

 

[Reble]

I also agree, if you have not had any problems than why add extra cost.

Look at the dogs vaccinations, females always had their shots, even when pregnant, a few years ago my Vet told me, they could not give them their shots if bred, things change, just ask your vet what is best and ask if other clients have had any problems with the vaccinations than you decide.

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[disneyhorse]

I don't have a ton of experience with this other than two foals... but I didn't give the shots. The only injection I gave was at the recommendation of my vet... all the annual vaccinations 30 days before due date so the foal would be properly immunized after birth. I think there's risk either way, to give or not to give. I think we over-vaccinate our animals anyway.

I think it's weird that animals get vaccinated every six months on some things, annually on others... yet us human beings are given childhood vaccines only, and then tetanus every ten years!?!

Just my opinion. My horses are vaccinated for everything annually, the show horses are done every six months. And broodmares get the vaccines 30 days before foaling. West Nile Virus is given once a year, but not to mares currently in foal. They get that right before they are bred.

That's my plan. I've seen vaccinated horses come down with the things they are vaccinated for, and horses that have never had a vaccination not get anything. So I just go with what my vet feels is also comfortable with him too.

Andrea

 

[Charlotte]

Here is what has led us to the vaccination protocols we now use.

During the years we were having so many late term abortions we charted our mare's vaccinations & dewormings. Over 30% of the abortions occurred within 12 hours to 3 days of a vaccination of some type.

My research took me to some equine reproduction sites where the very high dollar embryo transplants and other high risk reproduction takes place. Reading the veterinarian articles on these sites I found that they don't put anything toxic into a mare once bred. No deworming or vaccinating of any kind.

Frank monitors our show horses very closely. If one seems the slightest bit off he temps the horse. Every year, of the 6-8 show horses, we have a fever reaction after vaccination in 1,2 or 3 of the horses. Fevers from very mild, 102, for a day or two to fevers of 105 for 5 - 7 days. (medication is given to reduce the fever & discomfort of course) Our vet tells me that high fevers or fevers for a few days can kill a fetus.

All vaccines have preservatives and an adjuvent in them......the adjuvent is an irritant whose purpose is to cause a local inflamation at the injection site to increase the blood flow to that area and cause the horse's immune system to react to the vaccine. We are giving the same amount of 'irritant' to a 150 pound horse that is given to a 1,400 pound horse. Common sense tell me that the 150 pound horse might have a more severe reaction than their larger bretheren.

Bottom line for me is that I follow the same vaccination program that Becky does. If I find it necessary to vaccinate during pregnancy I do it in the second trimester after the foal is formed, but still small enough to be more easily delivered if aborted.

It is a real delima here because of the show horses coming and going from the farm, but the show horses are kept vaccinated every 60-90 days for rhino so that lowers the chance of exposing the broodmares.

I think each farm and each set of circumstances is different. There is no 'right' way.

Charlotte

 

[Magic]

Excellent points Charlotte!! I now understand why a vaccination could cause a mare to abort.

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I generally give my mares their annual shot about 30 days before foaling, in order to give the foal some immunity as well, and then give the mares their rhino and West Nile shots before being bred back, if they are going to be. This is what makes me feel most comfortable.

 

[Nathan Luszcz]

Reading the veterinarian articles on these sites I found that they don't put anything toxic into a mare once bred. No deworming or vaccinating of any kind.

Until day 50 of pregnancy... then we revaccinate everything and return to our normal worming schedule. This is the treatment directed by some of the top reproduction vets in the US.

Like someone brought up on the parallel rhino vaccine thread, just because you haven't ever had problems doesn't mean you won't. If one horse goes to a show and gets infected with rhinopneumonitis 1 and goes back to your herd of broodmares, the ENTIRE herd can abort. 70% isn't uncommon. Just because its always served you well not to vaccinate doesn't mean you are immune, just lucky. Now if you have a 100% closed herd (NOBODY coming or going) you could probably get away without vaccinating, but that's exactly what it is, getting away with it. If you understand that risk and still choose not to vaccinate, that's absolutely fine, but the key is understanding the risk and how the disease works and is transmitted.

Also remember that rhino and rhino aren't the same thing

Pneumabort-K (and there is another brandname too, a live-virus version that isn't quite as good) is rhinopneumonitis 1a and 1b. The "normal" rhino you give traveling horses every three months (you do do every three months, right? Once a year isn't covering your horse unless you only travel during the few months after the shot

) is Rhino 1 and 4, different strains of the same disease. One does not replace the other. Pregnant mares need Pneumabort-K, NOT the normal flu/rhino or plain rhino 1/4 that you give to the other horses.

I generally give my mares their annual shot about 30 days before foaling, in order to give the foal some immunity as well, and then give the mares their rhino and West Nile shots before being bred back, if they are going to be.

Remember that rhino is only a 2-3 month vaccine, and so are most West Nile vaccines. If you choose to do this, realize that a) that rhino won't protect pregnant mares from late term abortion, b) its only good for 3 months, and c) I'd suggest you use Recombitek as your west nile vaccine, its an annual vaccine as opposed to Fort Dodge's, which is three months.

 

[Magic]

Remember that rhino is only a 2-3 month vaccine, and so are most West Nile vaccines. If you choose to do this, realize that a) that rhino won't protect pregnant mares from late term abortion, b) its only good for 3 months, and c) I'd suggest you use Recombitek as your west nile vaccine, its an annual vaccine as opposed to Fort Dodge's, which is three months.

Ah, good advice.

: My vets at the old place were very hesitant to give the Recombitek, since it was a live-virus vaccine, so I stayed with the Fort Dodge. I'll try the Recombitek this time.

I'm still leery of giving the pneumabort tho...

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[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

Reading the veterinarian articles on these sites I found that they don't put anything toxic into a mare once bred. No deworming or vaccinating of any kind.

Like someone brought up on the parallel rhino vaccine thread, just because you haven't ever had problems doesn't mean you won't.

Also remember that rhino and rhino aren't the same thing

Pneumabort-K (and there is another brandname too, a live-virus version that isn't quite as good) .

And equally one can say with just as much to back it up that ..if you have been vaccinating all these years and havent had a mare abort due to the vaccination then.. you have been "getting away" with something.

it all comes down to there is NO ONE WAY for every person that has experienced one thing on one side there is someone on the opposite side who has experienced the exact opposite.

Remember many disagreed that Quest may be bad for your minis until SO MANY horses were lost some had to take notice and believe me they had to argue there points to many (and still do) it is very easy to pooh pooh something until it has happened to you (which can apply to either side of this debate)

The best advice is to talk to your vet if your vet doesnt have a good reason for giving the vaccine other then it has simply been what he was taught and you want more of an answer.. ask another vet.

the length of time you need a WNV vaccine to fully work of course depends on where you live. Some states have mild weather (and mosquitos) year round others just a few months out of the year.

We learned more about WN then we wanted to this year. Our state was leading the nation in human cases and I have seen plenty of horse cases while helping out my vet. In one weekend he had over 15 horses come to the clinic this was in a 36 hour period. Some vaccinated some not.. either way not a pretty sight

 

[Nathan Luszcz]

Thousands upon thousands, if not millions, of mares are given the Pneumabort shots as a rule from all kinds of major breeding facilities. They have numbers on their side when the research claims that the exception is an abortion due to the shot itself. Yes, you could look at it as getting away either way. But I "get away" with driving on the right side of the road. But someday, someone might be driving on the left, then I'll get hurt. But that's the huge, huge exception, not the rule. Same with the vaccine. In light horses there are far, far more animals saved from abortion from the shot than are caused to abort.

ick, why can't I spell?

 

[Nancy G]

:saludando: Thanks everyone. Interesting to read all the many views!