"Permanent" permanent measurement card

[Field-of-Dreams]

What would you think about a "permanent" measurement card- i.e., once you have this you would never need measured ever again. Let's call it a Gold Card Measurement card.

1. Horse would have to be 5 years or older.

2. It would cost to get it, the money would support the program so AMHA/AMHR would not be putting fundage into it. Let's say $300. Any excess funds go to support it in the future.

3. The measurement would take place once a year, at Nationals/Worlds on one day. Not associated with the show at all, held in a different place than measuring for the show. Perhaps on an earlier day.

4. You would need to sign up in advance and pay your fee. You won't be able to just get in line for it. That way they can schedule time to make sure one day is enough or need another day.

5. Once you have your Gold Card, your horse's height cannot be protested at any time.

6. Measuring would take place with one Steward measuring and three Steward witnesses. This would be a paid event for the Stewards.

7. Must bring actual papers, no copies.

8. Measuring would be videotaped. Both the Registry and the horse owner to get a copy.

9. Horse would be issued a "gold" permanent measurement card, with the Registry embossed seal on it to prevent counterfeiting. Or maybe a seal on his registration papers.

10. Horse would not need measured yearly again.

11. Horse would not need measured at Nationals/Worlds (not sure about this one)

12. Horse would be trotted for soundness to make sure he is not trimmed to closely.

Procedure would be: you take your horse to the measurement area. You trot for soundness. With your approval, the Steward marks the last hairs of the mane with washable marker. YOU set up your horse in the approved manner- not stretched, not camped under, not splay legged. Head held normally. When all four Stewards agree horse is set legally, you step back and he is measured. You are not permitted to touch horse in any way, just loose on the lead. Measurement is shown to you and all Stewards and videographer. If you agree, measurement is considered final. As with a normal measurement, if you disagree you get three total tries, the third one being the final one. If you don't get the measurement you want, you are passed out with no refund. You can try again next year, but will have to pay the fee again.

Pros-cons? Do you think this would work? Do you think it would be worth it? I probably wouldn't need it (I don't show nearly enough), but for some it may be cool to say "My stallion is Gold Carded at 33.5" tall" when advertising. Plus if you show a lot, it would save time.

 

[ruffian]

What would you think about a "permanent" measurement card- i.e., once you have this you would never need measured ever again. Let's call it a Gold Card Measurement card.

1. Horse would have to be 5 years or older.

2. It would cost to get it, the money would support the program so AMHA/AMHR would not be putting fundage into it. Let's say $300. Any excess funds go to support it in the future.

With colts selling for $500 or less, it would not be worth it. Folks are concerned now with fees associated with registering horses.

3. The measurement would take place once a year, at Nationals/Worlds on one day. Not associated with the show at all, held in a different place than measuring for the show. Perhaps on an earlier day.

Not everybody gets to Nationals or Worlds. I've been in miniatures for over 25 years, and have been to Nationals 3 times, and Worlds once. The only way to do this would be to put "measurement stations" so to speak, in each state or area. Very costly to the registries. Plus someone would miss it and complain.

4. You would need to sign up in advance and pay your fee. You won't be able to just get in line for it. That way they can schedule time to make sure one day is enough or need another day.

5. Once you have your Gold Card, your horse's height cannot be protested at any time.

What if the horse grows? Some do after 5. or Shrinks?? Horses do that, and could effectly reduce their size into a smaller class. So this would not work. Plus not being able to be protested would ensure that someone somehwere would get an oversize/wrong sized horse slipped through somewhere.

6. Measuring would take place with one Steward measuring and three Steward witnesses. This would be a paid event for the Stewards.

This already happens - steward and witness - not to mention typicallly folks standing around watching.

7. Must bring actual papers, no copies.

Not sure what this would change or how it would be different from using copies? Plus I would not want to take my originals in case of damage or loss.

8. Measuring would be videotaped. Both the Registry and the horse owner to get a copy.

Another pretty good expense to the registry. Plus someone would get the wrong tape, or a tape would be lost.

9. Horse would be issued a "gold" permanent measurement card, with the Registry embossed seal on it to prevent counterfeiting. Or maybe a seal on his registration papers.

10. Horse would not need measured yearly again.

11. Horse would not need measured at Nationals/Worlds (not sure about this one)

12. Horse would be trotted for soundness to make sure he is not trimmed to closely.

Procedure would be: you take your horse to the measurement area. You trot for soundness. With your approval, the Steward marks the last hairs of the mane with washable marker. YOU set up your horse in the approved manner- not stretched, not camped under, not splay legged. Head held normally. When all four Stewards agree horse is set legally, you step back and he is measured. You are not permitted to touch horse in any way, just loose on the lead. Measurement is shown to you and all Stewards and videographer. If you agree, measurement is considered final. As with a normal measurement, if you disagree you get three total tries, the third one being the final one. If you don't get the measurement you want, you are passed out with no refund. You can try again next year, but will have to pay the fee again.

Pros-cons? Do you think this would work? Do you think it would be worth it? I probably wouldn't need it (I don't show nearly enough), but for some it may be cool to say "My stallion is Gold Carded at 33.5" tall" when advertising. Plus if you show a lot, it would save time.

I don't ever see this happening. There are just too many variables that IMO would not work, and it would be way to expensive for most people to do.

Just MOO!!! But it's great to think outside the box on stuff like this!

 

[Field-of-Dreams]

First off, let me state this is STRICTLY VOLUNTARY. You do NOT have to get this card if you don't want to.

Now, to answer your comments:

What would you think about a "permanent" measurement card- i.e., once you have this you would never need measured ever again. Let's call it a Gold Card Measurement card.

1. Horse would have to be 5 years or older.

2. It would cost to get it, the money would support the program so AMHA/AMHR would not be putting fundage into it. Let's say $300. Any excess funds go to support it in the future.

With colts selling for $500 or less, it would not be worth it. Folks are concerned now with fees associated with registering horses.

If you are selling colts for $500 they probably won't be shown that often and do not need this card. Like I said- voluntary!

3. The measurement would take place once a year, at Nationals/Worlds on one day. Not associated with the show at all, held in a different place than measuring for the show. Perhaps on an earlier day.

Not everybody gets to Nationals or Worlds. I've been in miniatures for over 25 years, and have been to Nationals 3 times, and Worlds once. The only way to do this would be to put "measurement stations" so to speak, in each state or area. Very costly to the registries. Plus someone would miss it and complain.

Again- if you don't go to Nationals/Worlds you really don't need this card. This is the ONLY place you can get measured for the Gold Card. If you really want one you will be there.

4. You would need to sign up in advance and pay your fee. You won't be able to just get in line for it. That way they can schedule time to make sure one day is enough or need another day.

5. Once you have your Gold Card, your horse's height cannot be protested at any time.

What if the horse grows? Some do after 5. or Shrinks?? Horses do that, and could effectly reduce their size into a smaller class. So this would not work. Plus not being able to be protested would ensure that someone somehwere would get an oversize/wrong sized horse slipped through somewhere.

Most don't. If this is a concern, don't apply for the card. Simple. And to slip the wrong horse in is why there are FOUR Stewards.

6. Measuring would take place with one Steward measuring and three Steward witnesses. This would be a paid event for the Stewards.

This already happens - steward and witness - not to mention typicallly folks standing around watching.

Yup, but this is actually FOUR Stewards to prevent "mistakes". And they will have nothing to do with the show.

7. Must bring actual papers, no copies.

Not sure what this would change or how it would be different from using copies? Plus I would not want to take my originals in case of damage or loss.

We can look into this. They would definitely have to be color copies.

8. Measuring would be videotaped. Both the Registry and the horse owner to get a copy.

Another pretty good expense to the registry. Plus someone would get the wrong tape, or a tape would be lost.

It would be a CD, and you would get it right there. ( I don't think they even make video recorders any more...

) It doesn't take long to download a DVD camera to a computer and burn a disc. No expense to the Registry, why do you think the cost for your Gold Card is $300?

Thanks, these are ideas I want to see and hash out.

 

[Minimor]

I would not like to see this brought into effect. Absolutely not. Why not? I strongly object to the "cannot be protested" portion of the idea. 1 steward or 4 stewards, I have no doubt that someone somewhere would get a horse measured in at a size that is smaller than what the horse truly is--sorry, can just see it happening!--AND the other thing is, this would allow someone to measure a horse in at just under the maximum height, and then grow a foot on that horse--just to enhance his movement a bit. Why should a horse that measures 38" on his gold card, with feet trimmed down to make sure that he does fit into the 38" and under limit, then be allowed to become 39" when his foot is grown out? He's no longer a 38" horse, he's a 39" horse & shouldn't be showing in AMHR.

There seems to be a number of people who really want to see permanent cards that are valid "forever" with no remeasuring needed at all, and no protest allowed--this topic keeps cropping up here & there at different times--and I sure hope that it never comes to pass.

 

[choclat dreams]

horses dont grow past a certain age. Even though minis are a height breed, they still do not continue to grow after a certain age, I do now see why there cant be a permant measurement card for them

 

[ohmt]

horses dont grow past a certain age. Even though minis are a height breed, they still do not continue to grow after a certain age, I do now see why there cant be a permant measurement card for them

10 years ago I bought a 5 year old bay leopard show stallion. He was stunning, my dream horse. He was AMHA and AMHR permanent in both. In AMHR he was listed as 32" and in AMHA he was listed at 33.25". I measured him, 33" on the nose and I usually measure big. I brought him home, bred him to some mares. Guess how tall he was by age 6? 36.75"!!!! That is not an exaggeration and I am not making it up. That is a true story-one that broke my bank. If I had brought this stallion and had him measured at age 5 and gotten a 'gold card', when I sold him 2 years later because he was too big for my strictly 34" and under breeding program, I could have advertised him as having a gold card at 33" and maybe have gotten some of my money back. Of course I would never do that, but there are definitely going to be some people who would do that. Registries would probably be the ones to get the blame.

Most horses do not grow past 5 years, but there ARE some that do, and when they do, they can grow a lot! I think it would be a nice idea, but just too many variables like ruffian said.

 

[ruffian]

"If you are selling colts for $500 they probably won't be shown that often and do not need this card. Like I said- voluntary!"

In today's market, $500 will get you a REAL nice colt. I have 2 horses in my barn. One my husband bought for $200. He did very well at local shows and went on to be a National Champion in AMHR. The other I paid $800 for, just a bit over the $500 market. He is the 2009 AMHA World Grand Champion Senior Stallion, plus AMHR Top Five senior stallion.

"horses dont grow past a certain age. Even though minis are a height breed, they still do not continue to grow after a certain age, I do now see why there cant be a permant measurement card for them"

If a horse is malnutritioned they can grow once they are being taken care of properly. And I also agree with the feet. If you trim a horse short, even laming them, you could numb the feet with a number of options and get them measured in.

Yes, it could be voluntary, but someone is going to have to set it up which will cost money to the registry, with the possibility of nobody wanting to do it. It could also cause legal issues if a horse gets his "Gold Card", and is obviously over the limit. Then what would happen? Would the AMHR rules or the "Gold Card" be right? The rules and a measurement would take precedence over a card IMO

 

[sfmini]

This would not work. A lot of folks wouldn't pay that fee so I don't see the program being self supporting. The people who do use it, well just picture this. Say I have a bay stallion, no markings, now say I have two bay stallions, one under, one a bit over. Well, I'll just take the short guy as the tall guy and get a gold card for the tall guy. Sorry, but this just facilitates cheating and those people would be untouchable.

This concept was introduced to AMHA a few years ago and was resoundingly defeated.

 

[Sandee]

Wow, don't even know how to vote as the "cost $300" hit me - thud! Too high a cost, but the idea is close. Don't need to measure everyone on the same day. Measure at a show and charge more like $25 for this card that says you don't have to mess with this again except at Nationals.

 

[Lost Spoke Ranch]

I like this idea other than some tweeking.

Since I came from POA's in the early 70s it was both a height and color registry. When the horse went permanent their height was recorded on their papers and I don't recall having to measure at the shows after that. I also dont recall having to pay to go permanent other than the usual temp to perm fee. I would leave it open for protests if someone has a legitimate concern of misconduct or wrong doing it can be cleared up. Maybe a fee to protest that is high enough to discourage frivolous accusations. It would be nice if things could be kept or made simple. Just a few of my thoughts.

Dawn