New Pair Pictures

[keely2682]

. A draft collar is more of a work collar like you would use to plow the field. A draft show collar, like a scotch collar, is too much for this vehicle. You want a Buggy collar.

would i use a harness with my freedom collar with this carraige?

do you have pictures of a buggy collar?

does it have full hames?

would one work for draft harness class at AMHR Nationals?

so not a draft parade harness with the spots ect?

what type of harness would i use a collar with?

 

[RhineStone]

would i use a harness with my freedom collar with this carraige? You can.

 

do you have pictures of a buggy collar? You need to look at this website and see the difference between a draft harness and a pair harness. There are too many photos to have to post to explain it. http://www.smuckersharness.com/

does it have full hames? Yes, it would have full hames. Look at both the Collars and the Hames pages on the Smucker's site.

 

would one work for draft harness class at AMHR Nationals? I don't know the requirements for that class, but I sure wouldn't use the "wrong" harness with that vehicle...but I am a traditionalist that would rather stretch the rules and be correct than look "silly" for the sake of rules wrote by people who really don't understand.

so not a draft parade harness with the spots ect? Oh heavens, no!

what type of harness would i use a collar with?

Not sure what you are asking. You would use a collared harness....vs. a breastcollar harness. Maybe the Smucker's site will make it more clear.

 

Myrna

 

[keely2682]

i saw the pictures on smuckers

so i can just buy collar and hames to use with the rest of my existing harness?

 

[hobbyhorse23]

the carriage is between 200 and 300lbs- 2 people can easily lift it into a truck

Keely, is that with the top? I thought when you bought it you told me it was about 150lbs.

do you have pictures of a buggy collar?does it have full hames?

would one work for draft harness class at AMHR Nationals?

Work-style draft collars would be something like this:

Where a(n ugly, mini-sized) buggy collar is like this:

I'm going to disagree with Myrna about full hames as I believe at least in mini parlance that refers to hames that extend up over the collar and end in those round balls and no, a buggy collar should not have those.

I would personally not use a buggy collar for the draft harness class as they aren't really what is being looked for. They're meant for buggies, not draft work. You want a work-style collar or a Scotch collar with full hames for that class and yes, a spotted harness.

so not a draft parade harness with the spots ect?

Lord no. Totally inappropriate for this carriage. Those should be used with buckboards or commercial wagons.

what type of harness would i use a collar with?

so i can just buy collar and hames to use with the rest of my existing harness?

Yes, in the case of a buggy collar with light or carriage harness. That sort of collar is actually legal in Country Pleasure classes if you read the rules- they just don't allow full hames or draft collars.

Leia

 

[RhineStone]

I'm going to disagree with Myrna about full hames as I believe at least in mini parlance that refers to hames that extend up over the collar and end in those round balls and no, a buggy collar should not have those.

Oh, no. Leia's right. Don't use hames with balls.

Use buggy hames.

I would personally not use a buggy collar for the draft harness class as they aren't really what is being looked for. They're meant for buggies, not draft work. You want a work-style collar or a Scotch collar with full hames for that class and yes, a spotted harness.

So what type of vehicles are used for the mini draft class?

Those should be used with buckboards or commercial wagons.

On another educational moment, "buckboards" are another highly misused carriage word. Most people think of them like a hitch wagon, with a seat in the front and a box in the back. Actually, a buckboard refers to a four-wheeled carriage with a seat and no springs, just boards laid front to back from axle to axle. The flex of the boards created the "suspension" (no matter how bad that really was). When going over a bump, the boards actually "bucked". There is a drawing of a buckboard buggy in the CAA thing I posted.

Yes, you can buy collars and hames to use with existing harness, but remember you will also have your long tugs on the hames, the hame straps, false martingales, etc.

Myrna

 

[hobbyhorse23]

So what type of vehicles are used for the mini draft class?

From what I've seen, mostly hitch wagons like you'd see with draft horses and occasionally the more western style I was calling a "buckboard."

On another educational moment, "buckboards" are another highly misused carriage word. Most people think of them like a hitch wagon, with a seat in the front and a box in the back. Actually, a buckboard refers to a four-wheeled carriage with a seat and no springs, just boards laid front to back from axle to axle. The flex of the boards created the "suspension" (no matter how bad that really was). When going over a bump, the boards actually "bucked". There is a drawing of a buckboard buggy in the CAA thing I posted.

Thanks! As I said, 4-wheeled carriages aren't my strong point yet.

Leia

 

[hobbyhorse23]

I think probably the greatest danger when using a neck yoke with Minis is that the reins can fairly easily get caught around the ends of the yoke because their necks are short. You would have to have the yoke so far out in front of them to prevent that, that it would pull too much on the horses necks. You do need to keep a yoke up high and close to their chests to make it work best.

I'd use the yoke but run the draught reins through correctly placed neck terrets to keep them up and have a coupling ring to keep the coupling reins from drooping. You've still got some risk but that's true with a single horse in shafts as well. I haven't had a problem since I started using the neck terrets.

It is the evener on Keely's carriage that is out of kilter. I would tighten it down and let the singletrees become the eveners was what I was trying to say.

I felt like I wasn't using the right terms so I did some quick research last night to refresh my memory. Looks like there's the "splinter bar," which is a fixed bar the singletrees are mounted on, or you can have an evener or "doubletree" which is the same thing but attached so that it pivots just like the singletrees do. The warnings I had read were aimed at carriages that had doubletrees/eveners. It looks like Keely's cart has a splinterbar which has simply worked loose and is beginning to act like an evener. Time to find a way to reinforce it!

In the course of that research I also got a hint on the "how to design the front end of our chariots" debate.

Tom Ryder in his book "On the Box Seat" says "The crab pole-head is not satisfactory on an unsupported pole because the height of the pole will vary as the horses move closer or further apart." I hadn't thought about that but he's quite right- if your horses squeeze together on a turn the pole is going to dip down and dump you forward unless it is so well-balanced that your own weight behind the axle is enough to hold it up! So it sounds like we'd better go with a yoke or other fixed attachment. (I also figured out that I had the wrong idea about what a "crab" was- I thought it was the hook that allows attachment of leader bars. Oops!)

neck yokes- if i got one do i want bolt through or slide on ring designed one?

No idea.

"On the Box Seat" says that if you have a carriage with a fixed pole, singletrees and a neck yoke then your yoke must be attached by a swiveling device as otherwise it could be wrenched off the end of the pole by the sometimes violent bouncing of the pole over rough ground. So it sounds like "drop pole = yoke ONLY, fixed pole = pole straps or swiveling, secured neck yoke, sprung pole = anything you want." I'm not sure I'm interpreting that right but that's what I'm getting so far.

In terms of what harness to use, you can use a full collared harness with this vehicle, and actually I am guessing it is heavy enough to warrant full collars, especially if the draft is low.

I do notice that the draft is fairly high in this vehicle so I'd be reluctant to use neck collars.

Leia

 

[susanne]

This is a most educational and enjoyable thread! I don't know if I'll ever drive a pair, but I love learning whether I ever use the knowledge gleaned or not!

 

[keely2682]

I do notice that the draft is fairly high in this vehicle so I'd be reluctant to use neck collars

if not neck collars what do i use?

i was about to order some

 

[hobbyhorse23]

From what I can see through the fuzzies, what you have now is perfectly appropriate!

Leia

 

[MiLo Minis]

I would not say the fringed top makes it more formal. The formality of the vehicle is more or less dictated by its original intended use. A Runabout is still a family, get-to-town vehicle, even if it has a top.

Without the top, Keely's vehicle is a Runabout. With the top, I guess I don't know what to call it, because it is not a folding top. Probably End-Spring Buggy is probably the closest term.]

Actually the term "runabout" means "a buggy without a top". They tended to be gentlemens vehicles for running errands in town or back and forth to work as they have a single seat. From what I can see in my "American Sleighs, Carriages, Sulkies and Carts", edited by Don H Berkebile, her vehicle closely resembles a Jenny Lind or possibly a single seat spring wagon with surrey top but I can't see the suspension well enough in her photos to say. Spring wagons most often had 2 or more seats and were family wagons. With a single seat they were business wagons for gentlemen. It is of course just a replica of some sort and modified to suit smaller equines so we would never be able to say exactly what vehicle it is

You could perhaps ask the builder what he intended it to represent.

In any case, as Myrna points out, none of these are "formal" vehicles.

 

[MiLo Minis]

if not neck collars what do i use?

i was about to order some

The decision whether to use neck or breast collar is made by the type of draft on the vehicle. Breast collars are really only suitable for a straight line of draft where the traces go straight across parallel to the ground. A neck collar should be used for any draft that is angled where the traces drop from shoulder height lower towards the back. Straight draft only works well for lighter vehicles. It is easier for a horse to pull a heavier vehicle when it is "lifting" upwards in draft. It is possible to change the draft on a vehicle by moving the height of the singletree/s although this sometimes requires a bit of re-engineering on the front end of the vehicle. You should read Barb Lee's "Understanding Draft" - it explains everything really well with pictures and everything!

 

[Crossbuck Farms]

Cute I do something similiar. But I plan to start both my teams as 4 in hand.