Neck sweating...Isnt this cheating????

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You know what, if I really believed you and I thought neck sweating was a form of liposuction, even temporary, well tell me where to get a full body sweat for ME!

Well slap me silly Jill! And here all this time I was saving up for liposuction when all I really have to do is strap a neck sweat around my posterior and POOF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Off it goes! Well I guess I better get out to the barn and get "sweatin"!
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And again, Slaney........nobody is flaming you at all! Just a difference of opinion.......but if I remember correctly you are the one that "asked" for the opinions?????? Sounded like you really wanted to learn something? Just because people add in a bit of humor you should not feel like a piece of charcoal.......... :lol:
 
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Actually in the title of your post you proposed that neck sweating was cheating.

Which it is not.

Even though the complete ins and outs of neck sweating have been laid out before you, that isn't going to make you approve it.

In which case I stand by my comment.

Why raise your blood pressure over a harmless neck sweat (and they ARE harmless in the right hands).

When you make statements such as Isnt this cheating???? you open yourself for lots of opinions.

It seems to me that you were not actually seeking information, but instead, seeking to stir a pot on a subject which your opinion is not changing.
 
You know what, if I really believed you and I thought neck sweating was a form of liposuction, even temporary, well tell me where to get a full body sweat for ME!
LOL Jill I have always thought the same thing
 
Getting back to the question of this post....."isn't this cheating?" Well, I think it comes down to where do you....personally... draw the line. Do you want to not see horses with the inside of the ears clipped clean? Personally, I really don't like that...I'd prefer a neat ear, but not skinned out, but my horses sure would look scruffy compared to the others in the show ring. and there are so many other fitting and grooming practices that are in fashion it comes down to what are you willing to do.

Wearing a neck sweat is ok by me if it is done correctly. Remember, there is really no way to 'exercise' the neck so it is hard to take off a bit of excess flab there. a neck wrap and throatlatch sweat can help to trim this area up a bit, but does nothing to really change the shape of the neck.

Where I have a problem is the medical procedures such as electric accupuncture which is so popular now. Even some amateurs are doing this procedure! Now, this CAN drastically change the shape of a neck and yes, I call that CHEATING. What is going to happen when someone pays big bucks for that National/World Champion and he/she starts producing foals and they all have thick heavy necks? Talk about ruining the market for our breed! If new comers get the feeling that all the famous horses are 'man made' will they want to buy their first mini? I just wonder how much this kind of cheating for the sake of winning at shows is going to hurt us all in the long run.....but then again, maybe it will help the market for those of us whose horses are...'real'.

Charlotte
 
Wearing a neck sweat is ok by me if it is done correctly. Remember, there is really no way to 'exercise' the neck so it is hard to take off a bit of excess flab there. a neck wrap and throatlatch sweat can help to trim this area up a bit, but does nothing to really change the shape of the neck.
Dido! My opinion 100%!!

:aktion033: :aktion033: :aktion033:
 
What will happen to all those foals that come from the lipo stallion will probably end up also having lipo done on them!
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Some must think it is easier to lipo than to breed for that pretty neck. Yes it is nice to have the "real" thing rather than just give the appearance of it. Mary

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. What is going to happen when someone pays big bucks for that National/World Champion and he/she starts producing foals and they all have thick heavy necks? Talk about ruining the market for our breed! If new comers get the feeling that all the famous horses are 'man made' will they want to buy their first mini? I just wonder how much this kind of cheating for the sake of winning at shows is going to hurt us all in the long run.....but then again, maybe it will help the market for those of us whose horses are...'real'.

Charlotte
 
Where I have a problem is the medical procedures such as electric accupuncture which is so popular now.

Charlotte
Sorry, this is off topic.......topic being neck sweating and cheating.............BUT

Charlotte, or anyone else who KNOWS the answer to this question...........is accupuncture illegal according to your rule book? (AMHA? AMHR?)

If this is not an illegal procedure then where do you draw the line on that one as it is used to treat a variety of issues.

Is liposuction illegal according to your rulebook? I think it would be classified as surgical alterations? If people are surgically altering horses than something should be done. That is total misrepresentation of an animal.

Accupunture is very legal in most breeds that I know of.

Liposuction (Arabians) on the other hand is not and grounds for suspension.
 
Where I have a problem is the medical procedures such as electric accupuncture which is so popular now. Even some amateurs are doing this procedure! Now, this CAN drastically change the shape of a neck and

I have seen horses that have had the neck surgery procedure. Can someone tell me how & if you can tell the ones that have had liposuction/accupuncture? If & when I buy another horse I want to know I am getting "a natural " horse......... I have seen some pictures lately that I wonder about. I mean, how did we go from what I would pretty much call a "thick neck breed" to these thin necked horses without human intervention....... I know some of you have thinner necked horses naturally but I have a hard time believing so many horses acquired this look in such a short time.................... Don't want to sabotage this thread so feel free to start another one...................... So tell me, how can I and other buyers tell "what you see is what you get" ? Vet check?................................... Wanted to add - I don't know or care if it is or is not currently illegal........ What I care about is if the horse I am looking at to spend Lee's hard earned $$'s on is being misrepresented. My future foals depend a lot upon what the horse standing in front of me looks like.
 
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I'm sorry, I agree that some of those replies felt pretty aggressive.

No, neck sweating is NOTHING like liposuction. Yes, in the right hands it is pretty harmless and doesn't seem to bug the horses. But this was still a great opportunity to discuss where one should draw the line in the ring and why. In that spirit I have deleted my further negative comments and will address some positive points that I found interesting.

Okay, first of all it seems like we're facing two different interpretations of what a halter class is. There's those like me who follow the traditional view that a halter class for any breed is where you determine who is the closest to the ideal and the best breeding stock. Hence, you want to present your horse to its best advantage but the best horse should win regardless of turnout. Then there's interpretation two, which has halter classes being a beauty pageant where no holds are barred unless they actually physically harm the horse or are clearly illegal. You can see how we got from view one to view two- it is only human nature to be attracted to flash and shine so horses that were REALLY well turned out won. So of course everyone starts focusing on the right halter and the perfect outfit, etc. And if your horse was a little faulty here but you could hide it with a skillful clipping job or draping the tail just so, well of course you would. That's only natural too. And BOOM! Before you know it, it's a beauty pageant.

Getting back to the question of this post....."isn't this cheating?" Well, I think it comes down to where do you....personally... draw the line. Do you want to not see horses with the inside of the ears clipped clean?
...Remember, there is really no way to 'exercise' the neck so it is hard to take off a bit of excess flab there.
It's not cheating any more than exercising the horse to get in shape or cutting back on hay to get the belly down...
I think it does come down to where you draw the line. To me it is not true that there is no way to exercise the neck. Are you kidding me? Dressage and proper riding/driving are ALL about developing the neck! Okay so that doesn't help you with showing your weanlings and your youngsters, but it sure should help that older stallion. And as for it not being any more cheating than exercise and diet I find myself disagreeing. No, I'm not saying sweating IS cheating. But sweating is what you do to get rid of what exercise and diet couldn't. It's that part of the body that apparently isn't just out of shape or fat. Hence, you are altering appearance beyond simply getting the horse in its own best condition.

For me personally, I draw the line with revealing vs. changing. Clipping out ears, using number 30 blades on the body, shaving the nose, none of those appeal to me for my own horses but they don't bug me because all you are doing is showing what is underneath the fur. Diet and exercise work to show the bone and muscle structure under the flab. But sweating is artificially making the neck look thinner and tighter than it would ever be on its own. Now if the horse was holding EXCESS water in his neck, like truly had swelling of some sort, then removing it would be returning him to his natural state. But normal water content is the way the horse is built and if I'm using the halter classes to judge who the best of the best is (view one of halter, remember) then I want the one who wins to do so because they naturally had a thinner neck and not because at that moment his had been sweated to be thinner than the natural horse next to him. I want to breed to the best horse, not the best turnout job.

I mean, how did we go from what I would pretty much call a "thick neck breed" to these thin necked horses without human intervention....... I know some of you have thinner necked horses naturally but I have a hard time believing so many horses acquired this look in such a short time......So tell me, how can I and other buyers tell "what you see is what you get" ?
Easy. Ban neck sweating so that you KNOW that what you see is what you get! That's my point and my only problem with sweating. How are we supposed to know which horses have natural nice necks so we can breed this trait into the next generation if we never see them with a natural neck?

Please remember this is just my opinion. I can see how an owner would want to sweat the neck of her stallion if it's the only thing keeping him from winning! I get it, I really do. But taking that long-run view of the breed it's not a good thing in the end. It does no harm to the individual but no help to the breeding industry in encouraging people to choose the best natural horse.

Respectfully,

Leia
 
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Liea, Our breed would only improve more if more breeders thought as you do :aktion033: :aktion033:

Very well said! Mary

I'm sorry, I agree that some of those replies felt pretty aggressive.

No, neck sweating is NOTHING like liposuction. Yes, in the right hands it is pretty harmless and doesn't seem to bug the horses. But this was still a great opportunity to discuss where one should draw the line in the ring and why. In that spirit I have deleted my further negative comments and will address some positive points that I found interesting.

Okay, first of all it seems like we're facing two different interpretations of what a halter class is. There's those like me who follow the traditional view that a halter class for any breed is where you determine who is the closest to the ideal and the best breeding stock. Hence, you want to present your horse to its best advantage but the best horse should win regardless of turnout. Then there's interpretation two, which has halter classes being a beauty pageant where no holds are barred unless they actually physically harm the horse or are clearly illegal. You can see how we got from view one to view two- it is only human nature to be attracted to flash and shine so horses that were REALLY well turned out won. So of course everyone starts focusing on the right halter and the perfect outfit, etc. And if your horse was a little faulty here but you could hide it with a skillful clipping job or draping the tail just so, well of course you would. That's only natural too. And BOOM! Before you know it, it's a beauty pageant.

Getting back to the question of this post....."isn't this cheating?" Well, I think it comes down to where do you....personally... draw the line. Do you want to not see horses with the inside of the ears clipped clean?
...Remember, there is really no way to 'exercise' the neck so it is hard to take off a bit of excess flab there.
It's not cheating any more than exercising the horse to get in shape or cutting back on hay to get the belly down...
I think it does come down to where you draw the line. To me it is not true that there is no way to exercise the neck. Are you kidding me? Dressage and proper riding/driving are ALL about developing the neck! Okay so that doesn't help you with showing your weanlings and your youngsters, but it sure should help that older stallion. And as for it not being any more cheating than exercise and diet I find myself disagreeing. No, I'm not saying sweating IS cheating. But sweating is what you do to get rid of what exercise and diet couldn't. It's that part of the body that apparently isn't just out of shape or fat. Hence, you are altering appearance beyond simply getting the horse in its own best condition.

For me personally, I draw the line with revealing vs. changing. Clipping out ears, using number 30 blades on the body, shaving the nose, none of those appeal to me for my own horses but they don't bug me because all you are doing is showing what is underneath the fur. Diet and exercise work to show the bone and muscle structure under the flab. But sweating is artificially making the neck look thinner and tighter than it would ever be on its own. Now if the horse was holding EXCESS water in his neck, like truly had swelling of some sort, then removing it would be returning him to his natural state. But normal water content is the way the horse is built and if I'm using the halter classes to judge who the best of the best is (view one of halter, remember) then I want the one who wins to do so because they naturally had a thinner neck and not because at that moment his had been sweated to be thinner than the natural horse next to him. I want to breed to the best horse, not the best turnout job.

I mean, how did we go from what I would pretty much call a "thick neck breed" to these thin necked horses without human intervention....... I know some of you have thinner necked horses naturally but I have a hard time believing so many horses acquired this look in such a short time......So tell me, how can I and other buyers tell "what you see is what you get" ?
Easy. Ban neck sweating so that you KNOW that what you see is what you get! That's my point and my only problem with sweating. How are we supposed to know which horses have natural nice necks so we can breed this trait into the next generation if we never see them with a natural neck?

Please remember this is just my opinion. I can see how an owner would want to sweat the neck of her stallion if it's the only thing keeping him from winning! I get it, I really do. But taking that long-run view of the breed it's not a good thing in the end. It does no harm to the individual but no help to the breeding industry in encouraging people to choose the best natural horse.

Respectfully,

Leia
 
And not to buy a horse because it has seen a neck sweat? Remember, sweating a neck is not a permanent thing and you would be missing out on some nice horses. But oh well.

Rai

I never said I wouldnt buy a horse that had been neck sweated.....besides.....how could I tell until it wore off (however long that takes)

Hobbyhorse23, Thank you so much for your comments, after all that has been said this post is the one that I agree with......and for Vertical Limit and any of you others that have slammed me.....I am not from america, and over here Neck sweating isnt done, in fact I never even new what it was until about 3wks ago so please dont accuse me of trying to make accusations of cheating...........I just wanted to hear your opinions.....not be attacked for asking the question.
 
While I prefer to show as naturally as possible, I have sweated my gelding's neck (right before the shows, and I haven't seen any real difference yet). Since he is a gelding and nobody is looking to breed to him, I see no harm. I don't feel that sweating is cheating or cruel.

I do have mixed feelings when it comes to sweating the necks of stallions and mares, as it does muddy the waters when trying to breed for a naturally slim neck. If this is a goal in the breed, we should be seeking to achieve a beautiful neck through breeding rather than by sweating, and a horse that can go into the show ring without being sweated is obviously the better horse.

On the other hand, I would hope that anyone looking at a stallion for breeding would look much deeper than what can be seen at a show. It should be assumed that there is a certain degree of smoke and mirrors, so you're setting yourself up if you don't do your research.
 
Is liposuction illegal according to your rulebook? I think it would be classified as surgical alterations?
According to AMHA, rule GR-040-D states "No horse having had surgery for purely cosmetic purposes will be permitted to show". In my mind, that would include liposuction as well as electric acupuncture (of the neck).
 
slaneyrose, by the very title of your post "...isn't this cheating" you DO suggest that necksweating is cheating. I don't know why so many say things, in print, and then deny saying it.
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Do I do much neck sweating? No. Do I view it as cheating? No. Do I see it as "cosmetic surgery"? No.
 
Let me get this straight....

You don't live in America.

Therefore, most likely, you don't compete in either the AMERICAN miniature horse association shows or the AMERICAN miniature horse registry shows.

So, why, pray tell, would you start a debate on the topic of neck sweating as cheating if it doesn't make one iota of difference to your circumstances whether it is or isnt?

Unvelievable.....
 
Slaneyrose.... God Love you!!
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I would never ask a Q like this because I knew what you where in for!
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Leia's answer and some others were helpful and probably helped answer your Q.

I think it is largely cultural too, the huge difference of opinion. There are things done here for showing purposes that people from other countries find downright bizarre, but I guess there are other things we do, in Ireland, that Americans find bizarre.

In Leia's response about the beauty pageant that really made sense, to me, because I think that is what topnotch showing is all about in America, for the most part.

Beauty pageants are not my cup of tea. I don't care for all the stuff you would need to do to your animal to make them competitive for a show. I do see that if you wish to be involved in showing many of these things become the norm to be competitve.

I would think neck sweating, unless done in the extreme, would only help emphasise an already good neck, can't imagine wanting to draw attention to a bad neck.
 
You don't live in America.
Therefore, most likely, you don't compete in either the AMERICAN miniature horse association shows or the AMERICAN miniature horse registry shows.
Please excuse me for having to point this out, because it seems that you do not have all information needed:

In Europe we have several AMHA approved shows! So technicaly we can qualify for the worlds etc.

And you can come over here to compete and earn points etc...
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You're very welcome by the way...
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And yes...sweating is done over here as well! It can never change a neck, just make it come out more beautifull or more ugly!
 
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I have seen some beautiful necks that people have told me that they did not have to sweat to get them that way.. They were a product of "nice and selective breeding".. If I were looking to buy another horse to add to my herd I would want one of these "natural" beauties for sure. Although I dont show, I still do enjoy taking nice photos, and have wondered about the neck sweating possibility- giving the desired enhancement to the neck.. But have concluded that I would rather say to potential breeders, and buyers, that "no sweating was required"- to obtain the end result. (in the event they should ask)
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: JMO
 
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I think this is a really good thread and brings forward some issues regarding our breed and our breed shows so I thank the person who started it regardless of country of origin.

Okay, first of all it seems like we're facing two different interpretations of what a halter class is. There's those like me who follow the traditional view that a halter class for any breed is where you determine who is the closest to the ideal and the best breeding stock. Hence, you want to present your horse to its best advantage but the best horse should win regardless of turnout. Then there's interpretation two, which has halter classes being a beauty pageant where no holds are barred unless they actually physically harm the horse or are clearly illegal. You can see how we got from view one to view two- it is only human nature to be attracted to flash and shine so horses that were REALLY well turned out won. So of course everyone starts focusing on the right halter and the perfect outfit, etc. And if your horse was a little faulty here but you could hide it with a skillful clipping job or draping the tail just so, well of course you would. That's only natural too. And BOOM! Before you know it, it's a beauty pageant.
Leia, I think you have hit the nail on the head here. I too am from the old school where a 'show' for an animal is to exhibit the results of our breeding programs....not the restuts of modern medical procedures. And I do think there is a line between 'grooming practices' and medical alteration.......Accupuncture for medical purposes is NOT what I am talking about! I'm talking about medical procedures for purely cosmetic purposes.

Charlotte
 
Please excuse me for having to point this out, because it seems that you do not have all information needed:

In Europe we have several AMHA approved shows! So technicaly we can qualify for the worlds etc.

And you can come over here to compete and earn points etc...
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And yes...sweating is done over here as well! It can never change a neck, just make it come out more beautifull or more ugly!
I always find it a bit intersting when people say horses arent dry lotted ever over here or horses arent sweated at all over here. I have seen pictures and heard different.

Sweating isnt some weird american beauty fad - and of course turn out matters that is the name of the game in top compitition in most horse events- you want to look your best and present your horse at its best- but I have always said for me the bottom line is i dont care what a horse has won locally and even at the National level if they cant prove themselves in the breeding shed there titles dont mean much IMO
 

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