miniature vs. shetland debate

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After 30+ years of being a "Breed", why is it IMPORTANT now to get a Shetland or Hackney into the miniature horse?

If you like a Hackney, then SHOW THE HACKNEY in HACKNEY shows

If you like a Shetland, then SHOW THE SHETLAND IN SHETLAND SHOWS

If you like an Arabian, then SHOW THE ARABIAN

The miniature horse is not a HUGE MOVING HORSE. That's right. it's not. Why does it have to be? A nice moving horse that can get along the rail is great. I don't need anything that knocks it's knees into it's chin. A Quarter Horse has it's head level with it's withers, or thereabouts. WAIT - LET'S CROSS EM WITH ARABIANS TO GET THAT HEAD UP!! Just because folks like it that way better doesn't mean that it's the right thing to do.

If Shetland folks want to show - support the shetland shows!!!!!! Why can't the shetland shows support themselves? Why can't hackney shows support themselves?? Why do you have to do everything possible to get under 38" to get into miniature shows?
As stated before... Why would I want a Huge Moving Miniature Horse? I'd rather buy miniature sized tack and equipment because it's easier to store and transport. I have five local AMHR shows here I'd love to show in. I have ZERO Hackney shows locally I could show in. If I had a full size Hackney, I'd have nowhere to show it. If I had a miniature Hackney, I'd have tons of venues to show it.

Miniature horses have an appeal because they are TINY. That's what they ARE. SMALL horses. And I just love that! That's the sole reason I switched from Draft horses to Small Equine. Because of the SIZE. And my tastes are for the big moving horses. Not that a dressage horse isn't AMAZING... my friend here raises Andalusians that have the most amazing dressage extended trots... but it is different motion.

I think people are now nuts about the bigger moving horses NOW (rather than 30 years ago) is because dedicated breeders through the decades have been able to improve the breed. It's no longer about "the tiniest", it's now "the prettiest" and "the best moving" and I think it's wonderful that breeders have the ability to diversify! And I think that's what people need to do... embrace the DIVERSITY. I hate the "us versus them" that is going on here. Those who don't like Shetlands and Hackneys are venomous. Those who have the Shetlands try to defend them and say "well they're winning, so how can they be that bad?"

Just breed what you like and show what you like.

Andrea
 
Marlee..... you have said what I have heard from many many mini breeders some who are opting to leave association due to it.

You said it with class and I really hope rather then defend how the whole world really should want Shetlands many will truly take the time to actually read and understand your post.

Yep the mini breeders could easily get over it and play or leave.. I am simply saying be careful what you all ask for.. without the minis you would not have any money for your ASPC Congress or pretty much anything else. This is a buisness and one has to appreciate that which brings in the money not make them feel useless- stupid- poor sports - ignorant and tell them hey our way or the highway.. When the majority of money is brought in by one division how does it make any sense to tell that division do it this way or see ya???

The fact that I personally love my ponies- that I personally do not mind Shetlands or Hackneys makes no difference.

The fact that if I were to start breeding again it would be ASPC ponies not minis doesnt matter

The fact that I personally do not believe there are enough ASPC breeders out there who have managed to master their own breed enough to start worrying about fixing minis doesnt matter.

Who was here first doesnt matter- who is the better breed doesnt matter- the reality is where would ASPC be at this moment and time without the minis and the dollars they bring in. And while looking at history lets look at what actually brought that money in the first place- TAKING THE ASPC PAPERS AWAY- does it make sense maybe not- is it logical? Maybe not- does it change the fact that mins do have lots of Shetland blood? Maybe not -but that doesnt change the facts and the facts are once Shetland was off the papers the dollars came tumbling in. Why would we force that to change without knowing that the dollars will still come tumbling in? It seems pretty obvious that they wont.... so yes some could insist on being right.. but really in the long run..where would righteousness be getting the entire association as a whole? What are the long term implications?

There is a division for everyone in ASPC heck now for ponies who go over height for show reasons can still hadd another 2 inches and show ASPR... Why this horrible outrage at the mini division asking for another division for them?
 
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Andrea, Lisa, I agree with you both. Finally you've both said what I've been trying to say. Yes, the minis are needed. Yes, the minis are fun and easy to care for and $$ a better deal than big(ger) horses. So the fact that someone loves QH, or Draft, or Arabs and would like to see minis that have that "look" is no different than someone that loves the action of Shetland or Hackney or Saddlebred. If it's possible to get a mini that has action and can drive with "style", then why not do it? I like the fact that minis are cheaper to have. I just want a bit more to them than they are now. I don't think that's a crime and we shouldn't have to constantly defend our preferences.
 
As usual Marlee you nailed it, in my opinion. Now I have just one guestion? Do those of you that love the high steppers and and the hackney influence actually drive them or are you just watchers and talkers like me? I would love to see pictures of those that do.

I remember so clearly my

Dad saying to my uncle in the early 60's," A bunch of old Fudds hanging on the rail looking for some action wrecked a breed". Now that was his opinion, not necessarily mine. So each to their own.
 
AOTE could have been a huge draw for AMHR but instead the last class added to the roster was a class more designed for what...ASPC type of action.
Just a point of clarification - the last AMHR driving classes added were the Western Country Pleasure classes - not the Park Harness classes.
 
There is a division for everyone in ASPC heck now for ponies who go over height for show reasons can still hadd another 2 inches and show ASPR... Why this horrible outrage at the mini division asking for another division for them?
Thank you Lisa, that is the question that everyone but ourselves have danced around. I am clearly labled as a Shetland/Hackney hater, when I am niether, simply because I want this.
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Dad saying to my uncle in the early 60's," A bunch of old Fudds hanging on the rail looking for some action wrecked a breed".
I think I would love to know your Dad...love his sense of humour.

Good thing I wear "big girl panties".
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Just a point of clarification - the last AMHR driving classes added were the Western Country Pleasure classes - not the Park Harness classes.
I was referring to Roadster in hand but perhaps my time line is not right and if it's off I apologize.
 
Why this horrible outrage at the mini division asking for another division for them?
You know what, I for one could care less if they add 6 divisions into AMHR as long as they make those divisions optional and not required for the local shows. Im quite sure that the shows here would not see a need to add any new divisions if they were available to be added…because we dont have that many Shetlands being shown AMHR, and of those that are being shown, none are Moderns.
What amazes me is that people seem to believe that if another division or two (or three or four or whatever) were added to AMHR, that would fix all their problems and complaints. If they truly believe that and cannot see that it would just open the way for a whole new set of problems and complaints, then they are fooling themselves. People cannot agree now on what should be Pleasure and what should be Park or Country Pleasure. They think its cut and dried what would be a Foundation Minibut I dont see it being cut & dried at all. Theyd find that there were those Minis that qualify for Foundation by virtue of registration, and yet they still have the refined look of a Shetlandand yes, there are some Minis out there that people would take to be Shetland or half Shetland if they didnt know the breeding or see the papers, just as there are ASPC/AMHR horses out there that you wouldnt recognize as Shetland if you didnt know they had that 2nd set of papers. So, then youll have people moaning about the fact that Foundation wasnt meant for that type of Miniature. Theyll complain that certain Minis should be showing open rather than foundation. Then again, maybe if that will make them happy, give them the division and when they complain about how unfair it still is because there are the wrong type of horses getting into that division they can listen to people saying I told you so.

One only has to look at the dissatisfaction a number of people have with the Foundation division in Shetlands to realize that it isn't going to work any better in Minis.

I would go along with a Foundation divisioneven though I dont believe in itbut I would not go along with taking the Shetlands or even just the Modern type Shetlands out of the regular AMHR classes & forcing them to show only in Modern Park…because IMO some of them arent park horses, they belong in pleasure. Add the Foundation division if you must, and then let everyone that wants to show in the regular AMHR division. And I say that as someone who has only straight AMHR horses, no ASPC/AMHR horses.

Yep the mini breeders could easily get over it and play or leave.. I am simply saying be careful what you all ask for.. without the minis you would not have any money for your ASPC Congress or pretty much anything else. This is a buisness and one has to appreciate that which brings in the money not make them feel useless- stupid- poor sports - ignorant and tell them hey our way or the highway.. When the majority of money is brought in by one division how does it make any sense to tell that division do it this way or see ya???
And I say that there is no way we should all bow down to what that one division wants just because they believe they are the money makers in the registry. I say that if they want to leave, let them leave. I do not believe that all Mini owners will leaveIm sure some will. But Im also sure that there will be many who stay. The ASPC/AMHR Minis are growing more and more popular, and as long as their owners want to show AMHR, there will be AMHR, and there will be money coming into AMHR as well as ASPC. Even if ASPC/AMHR is left smaller than it currently is, I believe it will be big enough to survive and even thrive.
The miniature horse is not a HUGE MOVING HORSE. That's right. it's not. Why does it have to be? A nice moving horse that can get along the rail is great. I don't need anything that knocks it's knees into it's chin.
But why shouldn’t it be? Just because “you” don’t want it to be? For that matter, why shouldn’t it be a good moving horse that is more fluid moving than what it is now? Adding pony doesn’t mean that only up/down movement will be added—it will add fluidity and extension as well. Many people like that!
A Quarter Horse has it's head level with it's withers, or thereabouts. WAIT - LET'S CROSS EM WITH ARABIANS TO GET THAT HEAD UP!! Just because folks like it that way better doesn't mean that it's the right thing to do.
Quarter Horse is its own breed, and Arabians are their own breed, so you’d hardly cross them to get one or the other. Miniature horses are small size equines that are 38” or less, so if you can find a Shetland that fits into that size, adding it into the breed sure isn’t the wrong thing to do!
I am curious….why is it okay if someone has a 6th generation Mini that came from Shetland stock, only 6 generations back someone threw away the Shetland papers, thereby making their horses “Miniature” only. But, if someone else kept the Shetland papers 6 generations back, making their horses ASPC/AMHR for those 6 generations….and of course that makes their current horse ASPC/AMHR now!....that is not so okay—people complain because that horse is winning in AMHR when it should be showing Shetland instead? Maybe some of those other AMHR horses shouldn’t be showing AMHR either, they should have had ASPC papers all these generations and then they could show ASPC “where they belong” too! They’re really AMHR because the Shetland was so far back? How do you know? Might not a Shetland without papers be every bit as much Shetland as one that has papers? Or does it really make it not Shetland any more if you don’t know by the papers that it is Shetland?
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You know what, I for one could care less if they add 6 divisions into AMHR as long as they make those divisions optional and not required for the local shows. I’m quite sure that the shows here would not see a need to add any new divisions if they were available to be added…because we don’t have that many Shetlands being shown AMHR, and of those that are being shown, none are Moderns.

What amazes me is that people seem to believe that if another division or two (or three or four or whatever) were added to AMHR, that would fix all their problems and complaints. If they truly believe that and cannot see that it would just open the way for a whole new set of problems and complaints, then they are fooling themselves. People cannot agree now on what should be Pleasure and what should be Park or Country Pleasure. They think it’s cut and dried what would be a Foundation Mini—but I don’t see it being cut & dried at all. They’d find that there were those Minis that qualify for Foundation by virtue of registration, and yet they still have the refined look of a Shetland—and yes, there are some Minis out there that people would take to be Shetland or half Shetland if they didn’t know the breeding or see the papers, just as there are ASPC/AMHR horses out there that you wouldn’t recognize as Shetland if you didn’t know they had that 2nd set of papers. So, then you’ll have people moaning about the fact that Foundation wasn’t meant for “that” type of Miniature. They’ll complain that certain Minis should be showing “open” rather than “foundation”. Then again, maybe if that will make them happy, give them the division and when they complain about how unfair it still is because there are the wrong type of horses getting into that division they can listen to people saying “I told you so”.

One only has to look at the dissatisfaction a number of people have with the Foundation division in Shetlands to realize that it isn't going to work any better in Minis.

I would go along with a Foundation division—even though I don’t believe in it—but I would not go along with taking the Shetlands or even just the Modern type Shetlands out of the regular AMHR classes & forcing them to show only in Modern Park…because IMO some of them aren’t park horses, they belong in pleasure. Add the Foundation division if you must, and then let everyone that wants to show in the regular AMHR division. And I say that as someone who has only straight AMHR horses, no ASPC/AMHR horses.

And I say that there is no way we should all bow down to what that one division wants just because they believe they are the money makers in the registry. I say that if they want to leave, let them leave. I do not believe that all Mini owners will leave—I’m sure some will. But I’m also sure that there will be many who stay. The ASPC/AMHR Minis are growing more and more popular, and as long as their owners want to show AMHR, there will be AMHR, and there will be money coming into AMHR as well as ASPC. Even if ASPC/AMHR is left smaller than it currently is, I believe it will be big enough to survive and even thrive.

But why shouldn’t it be? Just because “you” don’t want it to be? For that matter, why shouldn’t it be a good moving horse that is more fluid moving than what it is now? Adding pony doesn’t mean that only up/down movement will be added—it will add fluidity and extension as well. Many people like that!

Quarter Horse is its own breed, and Arabians are their own breed, so you’d hardly cross them to get one or the other. Miniature horses are small size equines that are 38” or less, so if you can find a Shetland that fits into that size, adding it into the breed sure isn’t the wrong thing to do!

I am curious….why is it okay if someone has a 6th generation Mini that came from Shetland stock, only 6 generations back someone threw away the Shetland papers, thereby making their horses “Miniature” only. But, if someone else kept the Shetland papers 6 generations back, making their horses ASPC/AMHR for those 6 generations….and of course that makes their current horse ASPC/AMHR now!....that is not so okay—people complain because that horse is winning in AMHR when it should be showing Shetland instead? Maybe some of those other AMHR horses shouldn’t be showing AMHR either, they should have had ASPC papers all these generations and then they could show ASPC “where they belong” too! They’re really AMHR because the Shetland was so far back? How do you know? Might not a Shetland without papers be every bit as much Shetland as one that has papers? Or does it really make it not Shetland any more if you don’t know by the papers that it is Shetland?
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Maybe a thread should be started and let people guess what the animal may be. Like a multiple choice quiz. A - mini, B - AMHR/ASPC, C - ASPC.
 
And I say that there is no way we should all bow down to what that one division wants just because they believe they are the money makers in the registry. I say that if they want to leave, let them leave.

Quarter Horse is its own breed, and Arabians are their own breed, so you’d hardly cross them to get one or the other. Miniature horses are small size equines that are 38” or less, so if you can find a Shetland that fits into that size, adding it into the breed sure isn’t the wrong thing to do!
In these times it is best for any buisness to remember that every customer is important and it is always best to try and meet the needs of the majority not brush them under the rug and say to bad so sad.
 
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Tina, I like that idea
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I was at a show last weekend, and again, I was very happy to see many AMHR horses holding there own, even though there were many AMHR/ASPC horses there. IMO, it all comes down to a good horse. Also, the top three Country horses were AMHR only. I also think the Pleasure horse was AMHR only. A couple of Grand and Reserve Champion halter horses were AMHR only or AMHR/AMHA.

I don't see what is wrong with a wanting and having a mini hackney. I can hardly wait to drive one myself.
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And I'll keep enjoying my Western driving mare too.
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I don't see why it has to be such a divided line.
 
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Marlee..... you have said what I have heard from many many mini breeders some who are opting to leave association due to it.

You said it with class and I really hope rather then defend how the whole world really should want Shetlands many will truly take the time to actually read and understand your post.

Yep the mini breeders could easily get over it and play or leave.. I am simply saying be careful what you all ask for.. without the minis you would not have any money for your ASPC Congress or pretty much anything else. This is a buisness and one has to appreciate that which brings in the money not make them feel useless- stupid- poor sports - ignorant and tell them hey our way or the highway.. When the majority of money is brought in by one division how does it make any sense to tell that division do it this way or see ya???

The fact that I personally love my ponies- that I personally do not mind Shetlands or Hackneys makes no difference.

The fact that if I were to start breeding again it would be ASPC ponies not minis doesnt matter

The fact that I personally do not believe there are enough ASPC breeders out there who have managed to master their own breed enough to start worrying about fixing minis doesnt matter.

Who was here first doesnt matter- who is the better breed doesnt matter- the reality is where would ASPC be at this moment and time without the minis and the dollars they bring in. And while looking at history lets look at what actually brought that money in the first place- TAKING THE ASPC PAPERS AWAY- does it make sense maybe not- is it logical? Maybe not- does it change the fact that mins do have lots of Shetland blood? Maybe not -but that doesnt change the facts and the facts are once Shetland was off the papers the dollars came tumbling in. Why would we force that to change without knowing that the dollars will still come tumbling in? It seems pretty obvious that they wont.... so yes some could insist on being right.. but really in the long run..where would righteousness be getting the entire association as a whole? What are the long term implications?

There is a division for everyone in ASPC heck now for ponies who go over height for show reasons can still hadd another 2 inches and show ASPR... Why this horrible outrage at the mini division asking for another division for them?
Wow Lisa you said what I always wanted too, you hit the nail on the head.
 
In these times it is best for any buisness to remember that every customer is important and it is always best to try and meet the needs of the majority not brush them under the rug and say to bad so sad.
But what really is the majority? Mini owners are the majority, yes, but what do the majority of those want? Those showing and breeding for the show ring are the ones complaining, and as has been said many times, the show people are not the majority.
I suspect that the majority are those that own a few Minis for fun, maybe show in 4-H or some local shows, many don't show at all and they don't breed for the show ring--they're breeding pets and selling to their own little market. Shetlands in AMHR don't affect them at all, because there aren't any Shetlands in their area, and their market isn't interested in Shetlands. Many of those that I know wouldn't be likely to leave AMHR because of Shetlands or because of a lack of new divisions for Minis.

Yes, every customer/member is important, but when it comes to meeting the needs of the majority, one first has to determine what the majority really is.
 

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