miniature vs. shetland debate

[txminipinto]

Muff Tuff, I believe you experienced what I am trying to express when I talk about "blending" - yes, there will be influences from both spectrums - all in the effort create a more beautiful individual - I truly believe you will see more and more of this "style" pervading the showring -- granted, at Congress the ponies were ASPC/AMHR - but the LOOK that was winning was heavily slanted toward a pony that had more of the AMHA/AMHR look to it - ie, small dished head, slender hooky neck, short back, flat croup, and yes, unbelieveable movement -- it is all good - it is called evolution ! !

Ok, I don't mean to be rude but I kind of think this is funny. ASPC slanting towards AMHA/AMHR? I wouldn't call that evolution! Since the ASPC pony was here FIRST, then surely AMHA/AMHR is becoming more like the ASPC pony with all the ASPC influence that everyone is so upset about. At least I hope so because if I end up with giant minis I will not be a happy breeder!

I agree that in the under division a lot of "mini looking" shetlands placed high and many of those were AMHR registered. But the over shetlands that won still retained their shetland look - chiseled, elegant heads, long hooky necks, beautiful top lines and wonderful movement.

To clarify, you can not "blend" an AMHA or AMHR horse with an ASPC pony and show at Congress or as a shetland. Only if both parents have ASPC papers and then it's still a shetland no matter where you choose to show it based on its height.

 

[Leeana]

I think why this debate gets heated is because of the amount of passion we all have for our breed(s). I cannot even put into words the amount of passion I have for the American Shetland Pony - So when I or someone else reads something negative regarding the breed that I and others are so passionate about, its normal to be offended. Vice versa, with the miniature breed.

Basically, Just because I have a passion for straight ASPC ponies that are taller does not mean I expect you to, just because I do, nore do I expect you to run out and buy a 42" Classic Mare just because that is what I like and I say is beautiful. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Just like I do not intend to go out and buy a 28" AMHA mini mare and start showing amha...Its sort of like the political debates on tv....no matter what each side says or feels, its not going to change the others personal view's and perspective. But there is a difference between facts and feelings....and the spin stops here!! (sorry - I just could not resist throwing that in - I bet Jill will love that...).

I decided a long while back that there was really no need for me to defend my shetlands - I love them...I don't expect everyone else to.

 

[Watcheye]

Its hard for me to know just what to say. I know that I got into minis because I liked the small araby looking horses. I love fun movement. I am not as excited about the larger shetland size and SOME of the shetland heads. I do like the movement so I am trying to keep an open mind.

I was a little upset when I was told by someone before my very first show that I would not do well in the ring unless I had a shetland horse. That put a bit of a bad taste in my mouth. I really like my horses and feel badly thinking that I may as well not even compete with them if I dont have a shetland.

I did recently see the post on the different types of shetlands which I found very informative and I think that if I were to bring any into my life it would have to be the classics (I think that was the type) - to me they have the looks and the moves I like BUT I dont want to feel as though Id have to give up the AMHR/AMHA horses I already have. Seeing as there are people that still like and have those, I hope there is always a place for them too.

 

[Jill]

It just seems to me that if a person is going to be so upset by other people's opinions and take offense so easily, showing horses is probably not the hobby that will bring the most contentment.

A big part of showing horses is about acclimating the opinions of others (the judges') into what you pursue. Whether that means changing some of what you do or re-aligning your expectations for wins is completely up to the individual.

Besides, so what if someone said people need to put on big girl panties? If that's the worst thing someone said or thought about me all day, I'd have to figure I probably didn't run my mouth as much as usual

 

[JMS Miniatures]

I'm not expecting anyone to follow what I love or me following anyone else. This wasn't about I don't agree what you are breeding for and I'm upset about it. No, this was about the division that is happening between our registry AMHR/ASPC.

I don't own any shetlands, but I do respect them. I think they are very pretty, I love how they move. I'm not negative when it comes to shetlands, I personally just don't want to see them in my miniatures but thats my opinion. Now they are saying the miniatures influence is coming into the shetlands, I think thats not good either. Like txminipinto said, I think the shetland breed itself would take a step backwards if that happens. Now you kind of have too see that in the under division since there is so many AMHR/ASPC horses now, but I don't think the way the shetlands look should change.

 

[JMS Miniatures]

It just seems to me that if a person is going to be so upset by other people's opinions and take offense so easily, showing horses is probably not the hobby that will bring the most contentment.

A big part of showing horses is about acclimating the opinions of others (the judges') into what you pursue. Whether that means changing some of what you do or re-aligning your expectations for wins is completely up to the individual.

Besides, so what if someone said people need to put on big girl panties? If that's the worst thing someone said or thought about me all day, I'd have to figure I probably didn't run my mouth as much as usual

Well maybe I took it too personally but apparently I don't see my post going anywhere and sounds like we will always be divided so I guess I'll go some where else.

 

[Minimor]

This post wasn't meant to start anything. It showed that feelings were hurt and it does show how we are a registry AMHR/ASPC needs to come together.

Not sure how it is to come together--the anti-shetland people apparently figure it can all be solved by taking Shetlands out of AMHR. Sue C. made some comment on another thread about how it could all be easily solved....and I forget her exact words & don't have time to go look them up...but it amounted to it would all be solved if everyone went along with her way of thinking.

Those who don't see a problem with ASPC/AMHR showing AMHR no doubt think that it would be easily solved if others would accept ASPC/AMHR as being as AMHR as any other AMHR horse.

What's reasonable to one is not reasonable to another.

And I love the big girl panties, always have since I first saw the smiley on another board.

 

[wpsellwood]

This is what I thought was funny, I was showing Doors at Worlds my husband was in the stands and he overheard another exhibitor complaining how they (us) hardship a shetland in to the AMHA and was winning. LOL He is 6 generations in the amha. I took it as a compliment.

 

[Jill]

Well maybe I took it too personally but apparently I don't see my post going anywhere and sounds like we will always be divided so I guess I'll go some where else.

Why would you expect the conversation to go anywhere that it hasn't already gone? Your own topic title reads "miniature vs. shetland debate -- Had just about enough".

 

[Songcatcher]

It was a certain post on the pony forum that according to some we need to get out big girl panties on and we are just a bunch of sour grapes just because we do care about our miniatures. ....

You mean there is an actual PONY FORUM for people to talk about their Shetlands?

Of course, I'm joking. I know there is a Pony Forum, I just don't go there because I'm not personally interested in Shetland ponies. That is in no way a put down of Shetlands. I'm not interested in Saddlebreds, QHs, or TBs either. For those who like them, that's great! Go for it! I just can't figure out why SOME feel the need to come on the MINIATURE Forum and put down Miniatures and that their Shetlands are so superior. If you feel that way, fine, but go to the Pony Forum with it.

I was a little upset when I was told by someone before my very first show that I would not do well in the ring unless I had a shetland horse. That put a bit of a bad taste in my mouth. I really like my horses and feel badly thinking that I may as well not even compete with them if I dont have a shetland.

This is the attitude of arrogance that turns me off. I can admire anyone who is diversified into multiple fields, but have no respect for anyone who feels it necessary to promote their own by putting others down.

 

[Minimor]

Arrogance? Sorry, but from what I've read on these forums, and from what I've heard people saying at various events--it is not the SHETLAND people who are saying you need Shetlands in order to win. The people that are frequently saying that are the MINI people. As I can recall, I've heard only one Shetland person actually say that. Many who do say it are Mini people who have changed their program from Mini to Shetland/Mini because they felt it was the best way for them to be more competitive. They generally aren't saying it to put anyone down, they are saying it because it is what they observed themselves--it's their reason for changing their herd. They are more sharing their observations, not building themselves up nor putting anyone else down.

 

[Mini Gaits Farm]

I put up a post earlier because I was excited about being able to watch the Congress show and I was asking a few questions....I posted it on the mini forum....I really wasn't even aware that there was a pony forum....stupid...maybe it was...but an honest mistake...very quickly it was moved....not a problem....I currently own 55 head of "miniature" horses....no shetlands....but will not hesitate to tell you that I felt "welcomed" on the pony forum...so if you don't want all of the drama....come on over to that forum....I find it to be more friendly....don't get me wrong....there are some "wonderful" mini people out there and on this forum....but others won't hesitate to put you in your place if your topic is in any way pertaining to shetlands. I am surprised this and another post about "types" of shetlands (which by the way is a wonderful thread and "most" informative) have made it this long on this forum. I love my minis and am going to stay with them...but perhaps my personality is more in line with the pony people....who knows.

 

[txminipinto]

Sherri, any time you or anyone else, wants to candidly and politely talk shetlands you are more than welcome on ANY of the pony forums (yes there's more than one). Shetland folk are actually pretty nice people. We welcome new comers and I don't know a single shetland person who won't take a newbie under their wing and help guide them along.

 

[JWC sr.]

Folks, as a mini person that also now owns Shetlands, (cause I like them)I hope we can all to just do what we enjoy, each in their own way. This hobby, industry or whatever this expensive habit we all have is supposed to be just that FUN.

I personally do not feel the need to defend my horses or my approach to the breeding side of things. That is what Cindy and I enjoy the most, planing, waiting, getting results and constantly evaluating where our herd is heading.

For those that disagree with what I do and how we go about it, all I can say is "Oh Well" and see you in the show ring where we will see what is what. (at least on that day and in that judges eyes anyway)

I wish we could all just understand this forum is a great place to exchange experience and information, but when we make it uncomfortable for new folks or anyone for that matter to express their feeling we all lose.

I for one am making an effort to keep my posts positive and hopefully informative, except when I just want to get others opinions or thought on any given subject which hopefully is just fun for everyone.

As I have said before, I do not like mean people. No matter how many horses they own or don't own, how much money they have or don't have or how grandiose or important they may think they are. We all deserve respect and dignity in my view and I expect nothing less than that when dealing with anyone in this industry and also expect to provide that to those I cross paths with.

Now I will go back in to my dream world, where I enjoy my horses and everyone gets along for the most part. We have some good friends coming out today to look at for a show horse in a few minutes anyway.

Vaya Con Dios my friends!!!

 

[HGFarm]

We will always be divided?

Variety is the spice of life... if every one had the same likes and opinions, what a dull and boring world we would live in.

I prefer Appaloosas over QH's, I prefer Arabians over TB's. I prefer them all over many other breeds.

I guess I am confused as to why we are all expected to think the same?? What type of horse is Jill's favorite horse is probably different than mine, which is different than Kaykay's, which is different than Minimors, and Songcatchers..... Hey more power to you all!

I like Shetlands for being Shetlands and Minis for being Minis. And I like different types. All big Appaloosas dont look the same- some look very QH type, some are suited for hunter jumper and some are racing stock. Doesnt mean they arent a good horse for what they are. If a small Shetland happens to fit into Mini size I dont care what it is, if it's a beautiful horse that's fine by me. It doesnt make it any less a Shetland or any more a Mini, since a Mini is merely a size breed. If I found a Morgan that was under 38, well I guess it would be a Mini too....

I dont think being rude is very nice either- people can get a point across without name calling or belittling someone else- or telling them their ideas are not ok because they are not the same as their own.

 

[LaVern]

I think things are changing and I think that is what is bothering some so much, the fact that we can not ride on which registry or how many registries anymore. People are caring about what the horse or pony looks like. The days when we used to be able to sell a horse or pony because it was registered this or that or double this or that are gone. It is now all about the pedigree and the look and the size.

Straight Mini or Mini Shetland or The Mini Shetland Cross it really doesn't make any difference if it is good and not too tall.

We get defensive when we feel threatened and I think that some have hidden behind the papers they have, for so long, that this is getting scary for them. In my case, just because I raise Straight Miniatures, doesn't make them good.

 

[txminipinto]

Lavern,

I believe you've nailed it on the head!

 

[RockRiverTiff]

All right, I've read everyone's comments but I'm going to go back to the original post and try to reply directly to that. So here, in all its glory, is my oh-so humble opinion...

We are never going to "fix" the Mini vs Shetland debate because if something is done to please one side it will displease the other side. There are so many people in our registries, and they are pursuing so many different things, that I don't honestly believe there is a solution to this debate, though respect would go a really long way. It's funny because when I read these threads I get the feeling that the big squawkers on both sides really have the same concerns - we all know we have the freedom to breed/show what pleases us, but simultaneously I think many people aren't happy unless they're getting widespread recognition/validation. This is nothing new - I talk to Arab people, QH people, even 4Hers on a fairly regular basis and even the ones that are winning are always concerned that someone else is trying to undermine them with something new or different.

In that regard, here's what I think about showing and the Shetland influence on AMHR. First and foremost as others have pointed out there wouldn't be an AMHR without ASPC, and since so much of R is and has always been Shetland blood, I think it's ludicrous to try to exclude the Shetlands from registering AMHR unless AMHR wants to become its own breed. That said, I don't fully understand why some Shetland breeders are fighting so hard to show AMHR while neglecting to support their own breed shows. There's so much history and heritage behind the breed that I think it's kind of sad that we have so many ASPC/AMHR horses out there competing in a height registry while so few are representing the standards of the breed at the actual ASPC shows.

Which brings me to my opinion on why Shetlands are winning in AMHR. Are there some beautiful ASPC/AMHR horses? Absolutely, but I've also seen some jaw-dropping AMHR and AMHA horses. Because the mini standards are so general, the judges can only determine what's desired in each registry by looking at what's in the ring and what's in our registry magazines. A lot of the ASPC/AMHR breeders are really putting their money where their mouth is and are campaigning/promoting their horses aggressively. Any beginner that opens the Journal or goes to a big AMHR show is going to get the impression that that's the direction we're going in. So the mini-only people that say they're going to stay home because they can't win are really undermining themselves and the type they like. I will say one point that's been ignored in this debate is the fact that a lot of the popular judges are ASPC people, so I do feel they're going to have a clear preference for the Shetland minis, perhaps moreso than an AMHR judge that's also got a stock background. But beyond that, if people that don't like the Shetland type want to protect their type's future in the ring, then they need to get it out there.

 

[MindyLee]

I might peeve some folks off but...

All Im going to add to folks like me who only show miniatures is that at a recient "R" show I had attended. There was both minis and shetland/mini mixes and yes shetland/minis where winning. BUT there was lots of just straight minis that where winning left and right also.

I'll will be the 1st and most likely the only one to admitt that at first I thought that shetlands are taking over and minis dont have hardly a chance and its just a waste of time and money. Then I opened my eyes and came to reality. I defently suck in the ring and need lots more practice and thats why I dont win. BUT some of the other competers that I showed against who had minis that dedicate everything to doing their best, That clearly spend WAY more time then I do at practicing and training where placing and placing well over shetland/minis. I then realized that I was pointing my fingers at the wrong folks and needed to point at myself. Now Im not saying that Im so terriable and not ever going to show again BUT if I want to win I need to do what other mini AND shetland-shetland/mini owners are doing and work harded at trying to win in the ring. I have some very beautiful horses and know that if I applied myself more to praticing more then complaining, then I could win more then last or not placing at all just like everyone else who do!

Also I'm not saying that other mini owners here on the fourm dont apply/train/practice very hard... but like I always said to my employees at work who always watch everyone else doing their job... "If you stop paying attention to everyone else and whats going on around you, you might get your job done better and a lot faster." I guess what Im saying is if you spend so much time/energy worring about whats going on in the mini equine world: minis or shetlands, and focuse on all the "what you think is so bad or what others are saying (negitive stuff), then you are wasting your energy that could be going towards what you do love and support and can give that all you have to keep it going as good as you want it or even make it better." No matter what you see, read, or hear someone always will point a finger and blame someone for something. We all need to just get along and learn from each other and think positive about the future of the mini equines both minis and ponies.

Sorry if I upset anyone and I hope I worded eveything I was thinking and folks could understand what my point is.

Also you can do what I do whan I see a topic that bugs me... I just ignore it and go to the photo fourm and look at all the great pictures!

 

[muffntuf]

I don't feel threatened. I like what my farm is producing as far as shetlands go. It is not a mix of AMHR/ASPC, it is ASPC or ASPR. But I did notice that what was winning at Congress did look more miniature than shetland.

With that said, I am sure my ASPR ponies are going to make a mark on that division. Synergy TAP is a gorgeous pony - but definitely not 100% hackney, nor incredibly hackney looking.

I do realize we have growing pains right now as a registry - but I also hope we do not loose sight of either the AMHR straight, or the ASPC straight animals.