miniature vs. shetland debate

[Sue_C.]

I think the shetland breed itself would take a step backwards if that happens.

I disagree... The hackney influence has brought some bad with it, along with the "good"(?). I am not all all fond of the over-thin neck, and convex heads of many of the modern shetlands. I do not see breeding back to the miniature a bad thing, if it gets that concave head back, and a bit more substance to the ponies front end.

Now you kind of have too see that in the under division since there is so many AMHR/ASPC horses now, but I don't think the way the shetlands look should change.

But that is the point...the shetland has ALREADY CHANGED... It isn't the shetland influence I abhor...it is the HACKNEY influence I do not want to see in the miniatures. It is not because I don't like hackneys either...I love watching them...but if I wanted one, by golly...I would buy one.

 

[txminipinto]

UGH Sue, you've obviously not met a lot of shetlands. First, a mini can not be bred back to a shetland and improve the shetland. The resulting cross would not be a shetland but half shetland. 2nd, I've seen just as many ugly headed and narrow chested minis. Please take any opportunity you can and visit a farm or go to a show. NONE of my shetlands have roman noses and all have chests and hips a quarter horse would respect.

And finally, hackneys have been apart of the American Shetland since the beginning of the American Shetland.

 

[Sue_C.]

First, a mini can not be bred back to a shetland and improve the shetland. The resulting cross would not be a shetland but half shetland.

Ummm, yeah, I know that, but it doesn't mean it wouldn't help if it COULD be, hypothetically speaking, be done.

I mean of COURSE you wouldn't dream of mixing mini blood with all those PUREBRED SHETLANDS now would you?

And finally, hackneys have been apart of the American Shetland since the beginning of the American Shetland.

And that means what, besides the fact that although the shetland is constantly refgered to as the "pure breed", whilst the miniature is constantly touted as the lesser animal because it is "only" a height breed? There are as many, if not more, other breeds infused into the American shetland, as in the miniature, but has "hidden" it under the umbrella of a "pure bred registry". Now we CONSTANTLY hear how it will miraculaously make the miniature horse a better animal. When talking about the moderns, I beg to differ...and I have that right.

 

[txminipinto]

Ummm, yeah, I know that, but it doesn't mean it wouldn't help if it COULD be, hypothetically speaking, be done.

I mean of COURSE you wouldn't dream of mixing mini blood with all those PUREBRED SHETLANDS now would you?

And that means what, besides the fact that although the shetland is constantly refgered to as the "pure breed", whilst the miniature is constantly touted as the lesser animal because it is "only" a height breed? There are as many, if not more, other breeds infused into the American shetland, as in the miniature, but has "hidden" it under the umbrella of a "pure bred registry". Now we CONSTANTLY hear how it will miraculaously make the miniature horse a better animal. When talking about the moderns, I beg to differ...and I have that right.

Well, you got me there Sue. Because you are right. I would never cross a mini onto my shetlands. First, because at best a mini is 38" tall and my shetlands are 43-46" tall. 2nd, because I raise over ASPC shetlands. And 3rd, because it would have to wait until its 3rd birthday to be registered AMHR IF it stayed under, but because I raise Overs it probably wouldn't.

Regardless, the ASPC shetland is as pure as any other american breed of horse. In reality the only PUREBRED horse would be the arabian.

I'm sorry you have such a distaste for the shetland and what it offers to the small equine industry. I like them all. I just breed the shetlands.

 

[Sue_C.]

I'm sorry you have such a distaste for the shetland and what it offers to the small equine industry. I like them all. I just breed the shetlands.

And there ya have it...again. Just because I do not want the hackney influence brought into my breed of choice, I MUST hate Shetlands.

I WILL SAY AGAIN...I-DO-NOT-DISLIKE-SHETLAND-PONIES...I just want the hackney influencing them, to stay where it is, and if it MUST ber brought into the miniature breed, KEEP IT IN IT'S OWN DIVISION.

Do I need to walk around with a placard.

Why is it that anyone who wishes to keep the "park-type" gait separate in the miniatures, AS IT ALREADY IS in the Shetland breed...is looked upon as a "pony-hating pariah"?

 

[Songcatcher]

And there ya have it...again. Just because I do not want the hackney influence brought into my breed of choice, I MUST hate Shetlands.

I WILL SAY AGAIN...I-DO-NOT-DISLIKE-SHETLAND-PONIES...I just want the hackney influencing them, to stay where it is, and if it MUST ber brought into the miniature breed, KEEP IT IN IT'S OWN DIVISION.

Do I need to walk around with a placard.

Why is it that anyone who wishes to keep the "park-type" gait separate in the miniatures, AS IT ALREADY IS in the Shetland breed...is looked upon as a "pony-hating pariah"?

Sue_C, this is what I was referring to regarding the arrogance of some Shetland breeders. They claim they like all horses, but come here on the Miniature Forum and demand that their Shetlands are superior to any Mini. If anyone makes a statement that they like other breeds, but prefer Minis, they are automatically labled a "Shetland hater".

I think my point has been prooven.

 

[Sue_C.]

Sue_C, this is what I was referring to regarding the arrogance of some Shetland breeders. They claim they like all horses, but come here on the Miniature Forum and demand that their Shetlands are superior to any Mini. If anyone makes a statement that they like other breeds, but prefer Minis, they are automatically labled a "Shetland hater". I think my point has been prooven.

Absolutely right, from what I have been seeing here lately. I keep telling myself..."Don't get sucked into replying to these types of posts", but I can only bite my tongue for so long... I do not understand how it is that what I say, is too hard to be comprehended by some? It has to be because they don't care to read into what I say...as I meant it, it is more controversial to make it into something else. And all I do by trying to "defend" my point of veiw, is give them more "air time".

 

[HGFarm]

You know, I have seen different body types and movement in the Arabians. I see it also in the QH, Appies and pretty much all the breeds that are fairly popular, and I am sure it occurs in breeds that I am not so familiar with. Why would anyone question different body types and movement in a Shetland or a Mini for that matter? It is what it is, just appreciate the horse for what it is. I breed Minis of Appaloosa breeding only- that does not mean or even imply that I hate others that are not of my favorite type.... I like horses- period.

Once again it seems a conversation has been boiled down to a finger pointing assumption of what others may think, or even better, assuming what others should think. <sigh>

 

[Sue_C.]

You know, I have seen different body types and movement in the Arabians. I see it also in the QH, Appies and pretty much all the breeds that are fairly popular, and I am sure it occurs in breeds that I am not so familiar with. Why would anyone question different body types and movement in a Shetland or a Mini for that matter? It is what it is, just appreciate the horse for what it is. I breed Minis of Appaloosa breeding only- that does not mean or even imply that I hate others that are not of my favorite type.... I like horses- period.

Once again it seems a conversation has been boiled down to a finger pointing assumption of what others may think, or even better, assuming what others should think. <sigh>

It is nothing so simple as a "body type", it is a totally different way of going. Yes, in other breeds you have it as well, but you don't show them in the same classes as the same type...that would be unfair to both. Morgans, Arabians, and yes...even the Shetlands...have Park-type classes for the more extreme movers. Such movement, as has been obtained in the modern DIVISION of the Shetland Pony, does not belong in the regular miniature horse pleasure class.

You mention QH, and Appy...try to see just how far you go with a park horse trotting along in one of their pleasure classes...LOLOL!

And it isn't the miniature horse that SHOULD be "penalized" for not having this movement...in the non-park classes available at this time, the extreme action is what should be marked down. For example, a freind of mine never does well with her registered Hackney ponies in open pleasure classes; yet will place highly in Hackney classes, or open park classes. This is the only place I have seen park horse tuype of action being placed over good long-reaching regular gaits in non-park classes. It isn't making sense to me that anyone wants it there.

There is a time and a place for everything, and everything has it's place.

 

[midnight star stables]

It is nothing so simple as a "body type", it is a totally different way of going. Yes, in other breeds you have it as well, but you don't show them in the same classes as the same type...that would be unfair to both. Morgans, Arabians, and yes...even the Shetlands...have Park-type classes for the more extreme movers. Such movement, as has been obtained in the modern DIVISION of the Shetland Pony, does not belong in the regular miniature horse pleasure class.

Then make them a Park driving class - Oh wait we have one. I am missing your point Sue.

Pleasure driving is for horses that break level at a trot. I have not seen many, if any that compete in Pleasure that break above level. I have seen horses that break level at a trot shown in Country. And guess what? They didn't place, or didn't place well. Judges have a a good way of putting people in their place. IMO, let the ribbons do the taking. If they aren't winning, they won't be staying in that class/division.

 

[Minimor]

Been to any Morgan shows in the last 20 years Sue? Yes, the various types do all show together in halter--so your western type horses don't have much hope of placing in the in hand classes--those are dominated by the park and pleasure horses. Sure, some of the bigger shows offer "hunter type in hand" or "sport type in hand" but the smaller shows do not--one in hand division is what you get. Yes, they offer Park, Pleasure, Classic Pleasure, but you still get very high moving horses in the Pleasure classes. There's a very fine line between the Park & Pleasure divisions--a line so fine you often can't see it.

Minis also offer Park, Pleasure and Country Pleasure--and sorry, just because a pony shows Modern with his shoes on doesn't mean he will be an ideal park horse with his shoes off when he's showing AMHR. And YES, shoes do make that much difference. I've seen some of the best Morgan Park horses trot without their shoes and they move very different barefoot than they do all shod up. I've seen a top Park horse throw a shoe part way through a class--not only the shoe was lost but also 2 inches of his hoof--it just broke off with the shoe--and that horse had very lopsided action until his rider pulled him up. Shoe and extra hoof length makes a huge difference in action.

Did you watch the Congress Modern Liberty class on line? I very much doubt that you are seeing that kind of action on ANY of the AMHR pleasure driving entries at any of the shows!

 

[Sue_C.]

Then make them a Park driving class - Oh wait we have one. I am missing your point Sue.
Pleasure driving is for horses that break level at a trot.

And no, you are certainly NOT mising my point at all...what point I AM TRYING TO MAKE, is that these level breaking, and above horses, belong in the park classes...but they are not there...are they?

A REGULAR pleasure horse should NOT "break level at a trot", nope, you just take your lil self down and watch some open driving classes.

Been to any Morgan shows in the last 20 years Sue?

Matter of fact, I don't show Morgans anymore...most of them now a days are too big and ugly for me with too much Saddlebred influence.

(Morgans) Yes, they offer Park, Pleasure, Classic Pleasure, but you still get very high moving horses in the Pleasure classes. There's a very fine line between the Park & Pleasure divisions--a line so fine you often can't see it.

Thanks! You just made my case FOR ME

...this is exactly what I am afraid will happen with the miniatures, if we do not have separate DIVISIONS for the modern crosses.

 

[Sandee]

Sue C. someone once said, "The Miniature Horse is a unique breed which comes in all shapes and colours. They range in looks and build from Draft type, Quarter horse type, to the very refined Arabian type of horse. Actually, just about any breed of horse you prefer can be found "minimized" into this wonderful breed. In our opinion..."

Oh, wait, that's not just "someone" --- that's your web page. So you have, or enjoy, all these types but, God forbid, a "Shetland type"? Some of us like to show AMHR and yet most, as you have said, of the minis cannot step high because of their short legs. So what's wrong with trying to breed more action into the "b" minis? I don't want to show Shetland - well, at least not from what I've seen this year. However, I LOVE the action in those longer legged horses and if a Shetland measures into the B size then he should be able to show there.

Yep, it's a difference of opinion.

By the way if you look up most any of your horses beyond the 1970s you will find not only did they come from Shetlands but also Hackneys. I have traced lineage back into the the 50s, 40s, even the 1800s.

 

[Sue_C.]

Oh, wait, that's not just "someone" --- that's your web page. So you have, or enjoy, all these types but, God forbid, a "Shetland type"? Some of us like to show AMHR and yet most, as you have said, of the minis cannot step high because of their short legs. So what's wrong with trying to breed more action into the "b" minis? I don't want to show Shetland - well, at least not from what I've seen this year. However, I LOVE the action in those longer legged horses and if a Shetland measures into the B size then he should be able to show there.

Nice to see you visited my site.

Are you guys PURPOSLY mis-reading my posts??? Is it a consiracy?

Surely, SOMEBODY MUST KNOW HOW TO R-E-A-D...??

Okay, f-o-r t-h-e l-a-s-t t-i-m-e...and I will type slooooowwwwlllyyyyy so everyone can understand... This has NOTHING to do with most of the shetland breed...it is THE FREAKING HACKNEY influence I dislike. Okay...GOT IT YET??

One of the best foals I ever raised/trained/showed was a "Big-boy", and let me tell you, there were legs "up to there" on that boy...but you also didn't see any park-type action in him either. Nope, he wis a long-walking, smooth trotting, ground covering kind of horse. The type of horse that belongs in any regular miniature or open pleasure class except park type classes. Longer legs do not necessarily mean higher action, nope, it certainly does not.

 

[Minimor]

Sorry, Sue, but it's all in one's perspective. IMO a pleasure driving horse SHOULD be trotting level. Park horses should trot above level. Well above level. Country pleasure, not quite level but not too far below either....because I like a good moving horse. And for me, good moving means the horse has lift as well as extension.

I absolutely LOATHE the minis that have little knee flexion, the ones that simply fling their feet out in front of them without first bringing their knees up in a nice round stride. Of course I don't want to see them just going up and down like a sewing machine, but then that's not how most Shetlands move either. If you see a pony that is moving with sewing machine action then it's almost certain that it's shod up and is being reined in so that it is animated with little forward movement. Let 'em trot on more freely and maybe pull the shoes and you will have a nice forward moving pony that has some lift along with a good length of stride. They also have a fluidity to their movement that most Minis do not have.

I've got some Minis that can and will trot level or just about level--put 'em in harness & pick them up a little and they'll be moving very nicely. And if they trot level I would put them into the pleasure driving division...because they are not Park horses and will never be park horses.

And yes, I have watched some pleasure driving classes....and when it comes to Minis, I have to say that there are some Pleasure Driving entries that belong in the Country Pleasure division. They just don't have the action and they don't have the elegance that I want to see in Pleasure Driving. I wouldn't move the best moving Pleasure horses up into Park, I'd move the poorest moving Pleasure horses down into Country.

At least we do agree on one thing--Morgans today are rather too big & ugly for my liking too, though I don't even see them as Saddlebred type so much any more. I like Saddlebreds, I do not like a good many of the Morgans that I see. Not sure what breed they resemble now.

 

[midnight star stables]

Sue, I do not show in open shows. I only show in AMHR breed shows. This year was a very busy show year of only showing in driving for me, and I can tell you it's been fun. I have been able to see many great horses is their prime, most showing in the right division. Many AMHR and ASPC/AMHR horses; yet in most of the driving classes I have seen a strong victory for AMHR only horses. My over gelding went Country Pleasure Stake Champion once and 7 times Reserve; this including the Area 2 National show too. We have also gone third three times in the stakes class. Together my gelding and I have shown against many Shetlands, and I hate to "brag", but I am only trying to make a point.

As far as I can see, the "modern minis" are only going to effect AMHR Park and Pleasure driving in the over division. Why is that such a problem? It is not going to affect a large population. And as I see it, the people who really really want a ASB or Modern mini, can have it. And those two driving classes give those horses a place to go.

I love the look of a Hackney, but I would never own one. To do a different show circuit, buy a new cart, harness, trailer - no. Not worth it to me. If I did have a chance to get a mini hackney though, I would likely jump on the chance. Does that make me wrong? I think I'd have a lot of fun showing in a Park driving class.

Oh and Sue

I still think you are a nice person, we just can't seem to see eye to eye on these Mini Hackenys, huh?

 

[Sandee]

Nice to see you visited my site.

Are you guys PURPOSLY mis-reading my posts??? Is it a consiracy?

Surely, SOMEBODY MUST KNOW HOW TO R-E-A-D...??

Okay, f-o-r t-h-e l-a-s-t t-i-m-e...and I will type slooooowwwwlllyyyyy so everyone can understand... This has NOTHING to do with most of the shetland breed...it is THE FREAKING HACKNEY influence I dislike. Okay...GOT IT YET??

..........................

Now who's misreading.

I wrote: By the way if you look up most any of your horses beyond the 1970s you will find not only did they come from Shetlands but also Hackneys. I have traced lineage back into the the 50s, 40s, even the 1800s.

The Hackneys have been there from 100+ years ago. So I really don't understand the problem. The Hackneys give them the eye popping trots and some of us LIKE that.

 

[sdmini]

I always feel I need to add a disclaimer to my post. I've always stated that I like the ASPC horses and would own some, especially a particular line, if those that I liked were in my price range. Everything I type isn't 100% my opinion, yet is the general tone of the small breeder I come in contact with.

This all boils down to value. When you don't feel valued in your association it becomes harder to support it. Those that do not want the Shetland influence are called barn blind and not forward thinking. Those that want to keep only "minis" in their horses pedigree are sneered at because there already is shetlands in their horses background. It's a hard pill to swallow when you are continually told Shetlands are the past, present and future of the miniature association. Where is a miniature breeder suppose to feel but left out in the cold?

There is nothing wrong with the Shetland breed I just don't see why the miniature halter/performance horse needs to look/move like one. I guess I misspoke, according to a previous post it's ok because the miniature horse still could compete in color and country pleasure.

I am a little breeder, those that I talk to are the little breeder, there is a growing consensus to switch associations to show in. Shetland influence is only part of the reasoning. AOTE could have been a huge draw for AMHR but instead the last class added to the roster was a class more designed for what...ASPC type of action. The AMHR only horse does not have to luxury of "choosing" not to show ASPC because of distance, class size or desire to do so.

 

[disneyhorse]

I happen to LOVE hackneys. I don't see why "shetland" is "okay" but "hackney" is the worst-ugliest-too-extreme-beast-even-if-it-was-small.

I would give my right arm for a Hackney pony that measured under 38".

And I don't understand the "if you like Hackneys so much, just get one. Don't pollute the miniature breed with them."

Well, if you like Arabians so much, why don't you just get one of THEM? If you like Quarter horse types, why don't you get one of THEM?

Honestly, miniature sized animals are cheaper and more convenient to show and care for. I can fit a 54" shaft cart in my trailer dressing room, but I can't fit a 72" shaft cart in my dressing room. I would love a tiny Hackney that could fit in a miniature size cart.

I can drive miniature sized vehicles on my local horse trails, but I can't drive anything larger.

I don't see why it's okay to let "shetland blood" creep in but the minute anything "Hackney like" creeps in people flip out. Why are Hackneys the devil? If horses are that talented and athletic to move naturally, why can't a miniature horse do it, too? If we can breed miniature horses that look like Percherons and look adorable in the draft harness classes, why can't we breed miniature horses that look like Hackneys that look stunning in the Park Harness classes?

And why does the halter have to be limited to a certain "type?" Can't judges be allowed to pick decently conformed horses that they like? I've been to shows where they pick Quarter Horse types, and I've been to shows where they like the most refined, extreme horses. I have a friend who had an AMHR/ASPC stallion... well at one local show the horse placed 4th to more Quarter Horse types, but then that year went National Grand Champion Stallion in halter. So you see, one judge out there felt he was 4th place and another judge felt he was the best in the nation that year. Halter is not an exact science, just go show your horses and have fun!

I looooooove hackneys and would kill to have one that's under 38". I do think that Modern Shetlands will be a major player in the miniature driving classes (Roadster, Pleasure, Park) in the future no matter what big-motion-haters will whine.

However, I also feel that AMHR-only horses are not to be put down. A nice horse is a nice horse. There are THOUSANDS of beautiful AMHR or AMHA or AMHA/AMHR horses out there. And let's face it... not matter how hard someone tried, a Hackney type horse could never try for National Grand Champion Western Pleasure horse. There is nothing WRONG with horses that have dressage type or Hunter type or Western type motion, any more than there is anything WRONG with a horse that has Park or Pleasure type motion. They are DIFFERENT. It is when you say something is "good" VERSUS something different being "bad" that it becomes a point of contention. I happen to PREFER a Park type horse, but that doesn't mean that someone's National Grand Western Pleasure horse is ugly-moving or untalented. I think that AMHR's greatest strength is the pure VARIETY it offers. If you like Quarter horses, they have those! Show in Western Pleasure. Like draft horses? They have those too! Show them in the draft harness complete with scotch collars and tail buns. Like pretty little model horses? Show in halter, it's a beauty pageant! Like Saddlebreds? Show in Park Harness with a viceroy! Like to go fast? Show in Roadster, both big movers and flat movers can really show off their speed.

When I go to shows, I see teeeny tiny minis that are just so small and perfect. I see flashy ASPC/AMHR horses. I see stunning AMHR only horses. Most horses have something they can bring to the table.

The Shetlands are major players now, get over it. If you don't like 'em, don't buy/breed/show them. Show what makes YOU happy and get over it

Chances are there are judges who also love what you love.

Andrea

 

[ruffian]

After 30+ years of being a "Breed", why is it IMPORTANT now to get a Shetland or Hackney into the miniature horse?

If you like a Hackney, then SHOW THE HACKNEY in HACKNEY shows

If you like a Shetland, then SHOW THE SHETLAND IN SHETLAND SHOWS

If you like an Arabian, then SHOW THE ARABIAN

The miniature horse is not a HUGE MOVING HORSE. That's right. it's not. Why does it have to be? A nice moving horse that can get along the rail is great. I don't need anything that knocks it's knees into it's chin. A Quarter Horse has it's head level with it's withers, or thereabouts. WAIT - LET'S CROSS EM WITH ARABIANS TO GET THAT HEAD UP!! Just because folks like it that way better doesn't mean that it's the right thing to do.

If Shetland folks want to show - support the shetland shows!!!!!! Why can't the shetland shows support themselves? Why can't hackney shows support themselves?? Why do you have to do everything possible to get under 38" to get into miniature shows?