Is It Ever OK? to smack a horse with a whip?

[Judi Renchen]

Ok I'm taking an informal poll. Is it ever OK to whip a horse across the front legs or chest? Have you ever heard of this techique for teaching manners to a horse being used by John Lyons or any of the other "biggie" horse teacher/trainers? I've come across an issue and have to decide how to handle it. I appreciate your help with this.

 

[maestoso]

I don't consider whipping a horse on the leg to be effective for anything. Once in a while I have seen trainers tap a dressage horse on the legs with a whip when teaching piaffe and passage, but just a tap. If a horse rudely crowds me or runs into me, I might smack them on the chest. And I have used a riding crop on a horse before that kicked at me. I don't know that I have ever seen(or agree with) "whipping" a horse as a general training technique......

 

[Marty]

I am assuming you are talking about "whipping" and not giving a cue?

You know Judy, in the olden days I used to see plenty of people ruffing up their big horses like that with a whip in the chest and across the legs for rearing. That was the local cowboys way of doing things. Everything was with a whip to them. Is it OK? You know what? If someone is that incapable of knowing how to properly reprimand a horse without whipping, they don't need to be around them. It boggles the mind even more that since minis are so small in comparrison to big horses that someone would think they have to strong arm them like that to get them to behave.

 

[whimsical]

I guess it would depend on what you mean by whip? Repeatedly...probably not.

But you have to understand that a horses skin is generally tougher than ours. Think of horses nipping at each other. It happens because the herd boss diciplines the other horse for invading space or challenging their authority.

Now the whips or ropes that the clinicians use aren't nearly as harsh as teeth.

But saying that if you are doing it as a training method it has to be done with fairness. You give the horse the chance to give you the right response and if not then you can use the whip to direct the right response.

Example: My TB mare used to have a big problem with rearing. When she would do this I would take the string whip (parelli sells) and whip it on her front legs when she did this. This worked in two ways. It was telling her that she wasn't giving me the right response and it also worked on a horses need to be in control of her legs. If the rope was hitting and wrapping one leg she didn't feel she had complete control of that leg. It worked after a while. She doesn't do that anymore. Her behavior has changed.

There are also some other applications with using a whip on the chest and legs that still fit into the natural horsemanship. But the key is give a directive and give them a chance to respond correctly and reward them with praise when they do give you even a little.

"Okay I am off my high horse"

 

[Sue_C.]

Short answer, yes.

Long answer... I use what is called a "pooper", which is actually two thick pieces of leather, about 24 inches long, and 2 inches wide, tapering to 1 inch at the handle end. The pieces are sewn together, leaving about 6-8 inches of one end, separate, so they can "slap" each other if you smack something with it. If I have a horse that attempts to rear, strike, bite or charge me while I am /holding or leading it, I will definately smack the horse across the chest...NEVER the legs or face. With this popper, it is not the pain of the strike, but the surprise, and the sharp "slap" of the two pieces of leather as they strike each other, that does the "attitude adjusting". I have taken this popper and hit myself quite sharply on the thigh, and calf, and it really doesn't hurt, as it is so wide the strike is pretty much absorbed. it does, however, make a remarkable snapping, or popping sound.

I am of the "old school" that believes that if it is a matter of dicipline, especially in a potential "life or death" situation...I want that horse to recognize me as the "Boss Mare", no doubt about it. Horses will punish each other, and they will have great respect for thier leader, even tho they know that that leader can (and will) mete out punishment if it is DESERVED.

 

[disneyhorse]

As long as it is done consistently and timely and not excessively, I don't find whipping a horse anywhere (except neck and head) to be out of the ordinary. If it is hard enough to draw blood, then that is unacceptable.

Andrea

 

[Judi Renchen]

Ok, now I've got a few answers, I'll further explain.

1. A miniature stallion being led threw a field of larger mares nickers at the mares and becomes "boyish/manly" isn't hard to control as far and raring or circling, is tugging on the lead rope.

2. Full grown MAN strikes the horse 3 - 4 times WITH FORCE on the legs.

3. Leads horse back into barn and say he needs to learn manners.

I agree if I'm going to be bit, reared upon or pawed I'm going to defend myself and show the horse who is boss, but this horse showed no aggression toward the handler. There was not a chance after the first strike for the horse to respond positively or negatively.

Who is at fault? The man for not having a proper way to take a stallion from the barn to the trailer without encountering mares or the stallion for stepping out of line and nickering?

 

[disneyhorse]

It is SO hard to say without actually being there. If the horse should "know better" and this is a consistent issue, then it might be okay. On the other hand, only going by what you have described, it doesn't sound like the punishment fit the crime but I don't have the whole story.

I'm not sure the right sort of advice could be gotten from a public forum...

Andrea

 

[Latika]

In some circumstances yes, in others no. Really it depends on the nature of the horses intent, and if other techniques have failed.

I would deem it acceptable if the horse has been reprimanded by other means without success, and is aggressive in its manner. If a horse is rearing out of fear I would not feel it "OK" to use a whip to reprimand, in fact I would probably feel that a reprimand is not necessary at all. But if the horse is genuinely aggressive towards its handler I would think using a whip would be an effective way to assert authority and leadership over the animal. (that does NOT mean whip the **** out of it!)

Horses big or small are herd animals, and need to have a herd leader, and that should always be its handler.

I feel it really depends on the circumstances of the horses actions... but in short yes, sometimes it is necessary.

ETA: I just read your next post! - I think the man is acting excessively, but how well do you know them? Its possibly that he has been walking the stallion past those mares for weeks practising lighter forms of reprimand without success and has decided to try something harsher to establish to the stallion that what he is doing is not on... or he could do that to him everyday and should realise by now that obviously it doesnt work and try a new technique!

It is importand for a stallion to know when and where it is appropriate to "talk" to mares, so I dont completely disagree with what the man is trying to teach, perhaps going the wrong way about it?

 

[Marty]

What so now the horse isn't allowed to talk even?

ohforthelovagod..............I lead my stallions through the mares daily and they nicker and talk to them etc. and can get prancy sometimes. This is no big deal! That's normal! A nicker is just a form of communication. He's saying "HI LADIES"! What a dummy.

 

[Latika]

When you are walking a 17hh stallion past a bunch of mares, you dont want them forgetting you are at the end of the lead! I think all stallion big & small should learn manners...

There are just various ways of teaching them

 

[Judi Renchen]

What so now the horse isn't allowed to talk even?
ohforthelovagod..............I lead my stallions through the mares daily and they nicker and talk to them etc. and can get prancy sometimes. This is no big deal! That's normal! A nicker is just a form of communication. He's saying "HI LADIES"! What a dummy.

EXACTLY my point.

I'm 5 ft 130+/- pounds. I've NEVER had to Manhandle one of my horses in this manner. Big horse maybe. Correcting for biting, rearing at me, pawing at me, yes I would. Once, but not three strikes harshly in a row. Nickering and pulling on the lead to aquaint himself with the lovely ladies in the field. Sorry, he went to the wrong school in my opinion. However, I'm still holding onto an open mind. I'm never to old to learn.

 

[Minimor]

Marty, I would have to disagree with you. My stallions are expected to keep quiet and behave themselves if/when I walk them past other horses. If I were taking them through a group of mares I would attempt to make the mares stay back to give the stallion some room, and I would still expect the stallion to pretty much mind his manners and never mind trying to talk to the girls. Why? Because I drive my stallions, and that means I may be driving them past the mares on the other side of the fence (would not drive in the pasture with the mares!) and the stallion is supposed to remember that he is working and when he is working he is not to be socializing. I do not need a harness horse to be talking and jumping around just because there's a mare on the other side of the fence. If he's loose, yes he can do those things. If he's being led or driven then no. As well, I sometimes show my stallions, and therefore they must behave even when in close quarters with other horses, mares or otherwise. It isn't just going out in the show ring, it's the close quarters in the barns as well. Waiting for a class, walking past other horses when going to/from the ring, the wash racks, leading to the stall or out of the barn to the trailer...you can end up having to walk past other horses & very close to those other horses. I expect my stallion to walk past these other horses QUIETLY--no leaping, no striking, no talking, no squealing, not even any whuffling noises. He can look and flare his nostrils but there better not be noise! so in view of all that, yes I would discipline my stallion in the situation described here.

Would I strike him that hard 3 times across the legs? No. I don't believe in using a whip on a horse's legs or face. I will smack him across the chest, or shoulder, side or hindquarters. I'll time it well and smack him once--one well timed smack is usually plenty, especially for a horse that knows his manners and just forgets them. He will accept that discipline and respect it. A younger horse might need a couple smacks--the first one sometimes doesn't have much effect, but the next one gets his attention. a crop with a popper on it may be more effective than a plain lash type of whip--it will give them a stinging smack plus make a good noise, and the noise will often get their attention just as well as the sting does. I'll often just hit the ground with the whip--the noise of that is enough to get the attention of most of my horses, and they'll pay more attention to me after that.

If it were me taking a stallion through the group of mares here, I would expect to be controlling the stallion with the lead shank, and though I would carry a whip that whip would be mostly for chasing the mares away and keeping them back a bit to give us some room. I really would not expect to have to use it on the stallion.

 

[Marty]

Point well taken Minimor and thank you for the input. As I remember correctly when I rode my big horse stallions I did expect them to shut up as well and keep their minds on working. However this is not the case before us as I understood it to be that the miniature was only being led and not being "worked" as in driven etc but. Of course most of my horses are very vocal in the first place, stallions and mares both. Just communicating harmlessly and normally around the barn the way I see it. But regardless I wouldn't be whipping on a horse for that in the first place or anything for that matter. Theres other ways. I guess I'm just an old mush. Ignore me. Crawling back into my cave now and shuttting up.

 

[Jill]

When I've had some nipping or other agressive issues, I have smacked with a crop but have done it around the shoulder area. This area because that's usually what I can reach in a flat second or two but I would not "not" smack across the chest (that would be a good area if you can reach it easily imo).

When teaching to lunge or getting after one who knows but is being uncooperative (changing directions w/o being told) I have popped horses on the butt with the lash of a lunge whip. Once that has happened to the horse a time or two, then usually the sound of the pop is all the message needed.

When riding, I've used a crop.

With my current horses (20 or so) we don't have any behavior issues except a colt who likes to nip and I'll be on this right soon

Most of my horses are small, but I expect them to respect me and to have manners. They can still hurt people if they do not behave and that is not okay with me.

It's my opinion the above is correct / proper, but I'm sure some will disagree. That's why we all have our own horses (we all have our own ways).

 

[HorseMom]

When I bought my 7 year old stud he was a monster. He was used as a lawn ornament and had no training whatsoever. Shortly after purchasing him I found out that I was pregnant, he started rearing up and coming after me aiming for my mid section. I became scared of him and handed him off to someone else to work with until after the baby was born. When I got back to work with him he was just as bad as he was before. Biting, pulling, rearing, and kicking. If a mare was in heat anywhere on the farm he knew and would be twice as bad. I started working with the trainer at the barn to help me get over my fear and get him some manners. It only took one good smack to the chest with the end of my lead rope for him to realize that I meant business. Now all I have to do is come after him with my angry face, give a little yank on the lead, and he gives in instantly. I can walk him by a mare in heat and he won't even look. He knows that when that halter is on he's working and I'm the only one that matters. He's come to really enjoy his work. He even gets excited when he sees that halter coming.

Like in my situation I think that it is nessecary sometimes to give a horse a good whack on the chest. I wouldn't want to whip his legs or his face. I've seen what happens after someone does that frequently. My sister's horse won't let anyone touch his legs, not even her. Getting his hoofs trimmed is a nightmare.

Heather

 

[Judi Renchen]

Marty, I would have to disagree with you. My stallions are expected to keep quiet and behave themselves if/when I walk them past other horses. If I were taking them through a group of mares I would attempt to make the mares stay back to give the stallion some room, and I would still expect the stallion to pretty much mind his manners and never mind trying to talk to the girls. Why? Because I drive my stallions, and that means I may be driving them past the mares on the other side of the fence (would not drive in the pasture with the mares!) and the stallion is supposed to remember that he is working and when he is working he is not to be socializing. I do not need a harness horse to be talking and jumping around just because there's a mare on the other side of the fence. If he's loose, yes he can do those things. If he's being led or driven then no. As well, I sometimes show my stallions, and therefore they must behave even when in close quarters with other horses, mares or otherwise. It isn't just going out in the show ring, it's the close quarters in the barns as well. Waiting for a class, walking past other horses when going to/from the ring, the wash racks, leading to the stall or out of the barn to the trailer...you can end up having to walk past other horses & very close to those other horses. I expect my stallion to walk past these other horses QUIETLY--no leaping, no striking, no talking, no squealing, not even any whuffling noises. He can look and flare his nostrils but there better not be noise! so in view of all that, yes I would discipline my stallion in the situation described here.
Would I strike him that hard 3 times across the legs? No. I don't believe in using a whip on a horse's legs or face. I will smack him across the chest, or shoulder, side or hindquarters. I'll time it well and smack him once--one well timed smack is usually plenty, especially for a horse that knows his manners and just forgets them. He will accept that discipline and respect it. A younger horse might need a couple smacks--the first one sometimes doesn't have much effect, but the next one gets his attention. a crop with a popper on it may be more effective than a plain lash type of whip--it will give them a stinging smack plus make a good noise, and the noise will often get their attention just as well as the sting does. I'll often just hit the ground with the whip--the noise of that is enough to get the attention of most of my horses, and they'll pay more attention to me after that.

If it were me taking a stallion through the group of mares here, I would expect to be controlling the stallion with the lead shank, and though I would carry a whip that whip would be mostly for chasing the mares away and keeping them back a bit to give us some room. I really would not expect to have to use it on the stallion.

Ok your points are well taken and valid, so I do agree there are times it's necessary. I just see that the actions I witnessed were a bit extreme. My stallions will talk to other horses but I usually yank on the lead and get their attention back to me. I believe this would also have worked or at least been attempted in this situation. I guess what shocked me and almost outraged me was the forceful striking three times. Like Bam Bam Bam. I'm strong handed with my minis and by no means do I allow them to forget I'm the boss but maybe I've been lucky I've never had to hit one with a whip. A good finger poke in the ribs, a flick on the ear, I've tapped them with the end of the lead rope enough to get their attention, I've just never had to use the force and repeating it more than once.

Perhaps it's also that anytime I get a new horse I work them in the round pen a lot with techniques that teach compliance and herd leadership so I've not had to strike them. Thanks everyone for their input and reflections of different case scenarios.

 

[Nathan Luszcz]

Stallions need to know when it is appropriate to be studly and when it is not... if its just a "hello" nicker I'll let it go. If he's so focused on them that he gets in my space or tries to go visit, that's not okay. Stallions are held to higher standards than other horses. In many situations its NOT okay to be talking to other horses.

That said I agree with the person who said "well maybe this guy was working with this stallions for several weeks with little/no success and this episode was the cumulation of that work. I generally stay at the chest for my stallion punishments, I think its a mistake to teach them to strike and jump by hitting their legs. A firm and harsh slap of the leadshank on the chest is usually enough to remind them of their manners.

 

[MiLo Minis]

None of us were there and so can't really say whether this was an acceptable occasion to give 3 firm whacks to a misbehaving stallion or not. Look at the way horses discipline each other. First there is the lifted leg or flattened ears. Then there is the swinging butt. Then the actual one quick kick or bite. If the transgressor continues to annoy they will follow with the all out whack and if that doesn't work then the senior/more dominant horse will give a short series of kicks. Escalating cues and escalating punishment works with horses. They use it themselves and understand it as long as the punishment is fairly dealt out. Ask politely first.

 

[txminipinto]

It depends on the situation. I have seriously whipped the front legs of stallions when they've tried to strike. Like Nathan has said, they are held to a higher standard. I've tapped the front legs of horses in training for side passing if my other cues haven't worked. And with certain stallions, I always hold a whip and tap their legs when we first start working to remind them that I have it and I will use it.

Of course, there is the double standard at my house. My husband isn't allowed to reprimand horses unless I give him permission. Mainly becuase I believe he doesn't know his own strength, nor does he have an indepth relationship with the horses and doesn't know the level of reprimand each one needs to get back on track.

Preferably, a change in voice or body posture should be all that's enough to correct a horse. Unfortunately, sometimes, you need a little stronger action because they will hurt you. Sometimes they don't mean it, but sometimes they do and that is when you have to mean business.

I expect my stallions to behave in hand regardless of who is around. They are not allowed to scream at other horses, nickering is ok but nothing more. They must pay attention to me. And they must respect my body and my space. And if they don't, I treat them like a horse. I can't kick them in the manner a mare can but I can use other means that have the same effect. Be it a stud chain appropiately placed or a riding crop. Last night, after I worked my 3 yr old breeding and show ASPC stallion, we walked by the mares and I allowed him to hand graze. He was allowed because he was quiet, responsive to me yet still aware that his mares were directly on the other side of the fence. He was allowed to quietly nicker to them but he did so while still being respectful. A year ago, he would not have been allowed to put his head down, he would have been screaming, rearing, and striking, and I would have been taking the necessary actions to correct that behavior. Today, he is a pleasure to handle. Now, his two yr old buddy, is still at that stage where I have to remind him who is in charge.

In the breeding shed, it's a different story. My stallions know (or are learning) the difference. Talking, screaming, prancing, rearing are all acceptable as long as they still respect me and my space and they aren't overly aggressive to the mares. In this environment, they are allowed to be a respectable breeding stallion. Breeding is a priviledge, not a right.