hello, advice needed please on feeding a laminitic.

[Anna]

hello, hope its okay if I just jump right in.

I have a feeding question I am hoping you can help with

I have a mini called Mini who is overweight, developed an acute lami episode literally overnight, (she did have her tetanus a few weeks prior not sure if thats relevant)
Vet arrived, said Mini needed to lose weight as fast as possible and said not to give anything except soaked hay and keep off grass? is now on bute 2x a day syringed in as no feed allowed. just looking some suggestions really.

thank you

 

[Marsha Cassada]

First of all, do not use bute. Use banamine paste. Bute can be very dangerous for a miniature. I would allow free choice hay but no grain. Losing weight "as fast as possible" is dangerous for a miniature. If your vet argues about the bute, just stick to your guns and insist on banamine. Once a day is adequate.
I went through this just last year with a mare.
I feel for you!

 

[chandab]

Fast weight loss is very dangerous, especially for miniature who are more prone to developing hyperlypedemia than full size horses (I may have spelled that wrong, but it's a fatty liver issue that is deadly).
What is the full exact current diet? All the details. How big is the mini (height is a good starting point, and even though not terribly accurate, even a weight tape weight would be useful, as well)? It'll be easier to work on a diet, if we know what we are starting with.
Being no forage is complete and balanced, at least a vitamin/mineral supplement (one you feed daily, not loose mineral) should be added to the diet. [Ration balancers work for this too.]
And, if you have a picture of said mini, so we can see where we are starting. If you can, a current picture taken from his level (rather than a downward angle), full body shot.

 

[Anna]

Fast weight loss is very dangerous, especially for miniature who are more prone to developing hyperlypedemia than full size horses (I may have spelled that wrong, but it's a fatty liver issue that is deadly).
What is the full exact current diet? All the details. How big is the mini (height is a good starting point, and even though not terribly accurate, even a weight tape weight would be useful, as well)? It'll be easier to work on a diet, if we know what we are starting with.
Being no forage is complete and balanced, at least a vitamin/mineral supplement (one you feed daily, not loose mineral) should be added to the diet. [Ration balancers work for this too.]
And, if you have a picture of said mini, so we can see where we are starting. If you can, a current picture taken from his level (rather than a downward angle), full body shot.

I did say I was concerned about hyperlypedemia but was advised only soaked hay, nothing else.
mini is 36 inches high, not sure about her weight, I have no current photos, not sure how to upload but will get some and try to see if I can figure out how to post them.
thank you for your reply

 

[Abby P]

Moving to a dry lot and feeding free choice soaked hay should be fine, I doubt she would lose too fast on that provided she eats it well. Did your vet tell you how best to soak the hay? Just hosing it down won't do it, it needs to be submerged for an hour then drained, and don't let her have access to the water you soaked it in since that has sugar in it. You can cut the soak time to 30 minutes if you use hot water.

That's probably enough to deal with to start out - you can refine later! Hang in there, this is manageable, but it's a pain in the backside and no fun for anyone, for sure.

 

[DB Minis]

So glad you jumped right in, you will get so much helpful advice from very experienced mini owners here, who often times know more than a lot of vets! Absolutely take things slow with weight loss, even though her weight is detrimental to her health right now it will cause other problems to lose weight too quickly. Keep her as comfortable as possible with the lami as you make the change to her diet, like Abby said it is no fun to go through but she will survive then thrive with your help.

Feeding a good quality but low nutritional grass hay free choice will allow her to regulate her intake so she doesn't lose weight too quickly while also not providing too many extra calories. However, if she is not used to eating free-choice hay currently she will likely gorge on free-choice - to combat this you can feed hay in small holed hay nets, but again if she is not used to eating from small hole nets this can cause frustration and stress, bringing on other issues.

Taking things slow will be best - start by removing any extras such as grass, hard feeds, and treats, but keep feeding the same hay as you have been. After she recovers from the emotional blow of no more goodies, slowly change the hay so her body can adapt, one step at a time - change the type of hay (some grass hays can be high in sugar/starch), the amount of hay (start weighing your hay so you know how much she consumes), and the feeding method (netted or otherwise), one at a time as needed. I'm not experienced with feeding soaked hay but it should be no problem to start with this right off the bat, unless she doesn't like it!

To help with feeding medications you should have no problem using hay pellets (I believe they are called hay nuts in the UK) - make sure the pellets have no other ingredients besides hay, some of my local feed stores have hay pellets with molasses as a binder which is a big no for a lami mini. My boys get a small handful of hay pellets wetted down into a mush, very easy to add medications to and they love it. It is a very insignificant amount of hay pellets and since it is just hay it doesn't add anything harmful to the diet.

Please continue to post and update us on her status, we would love to here about her progress and help you with anything else you need during this journey.

 

[chandab]

Safe dieting is to feed 1.5% of current weight or 2% of ideal weight, which ever is greater, then make adjustments as weight is lost.
a 36" mini, measured to the last hairs of the mane as minis are measured, rather than top of withers, is probably going to weight in the 300-325# range, maybe a little more, depending on build (the 37" gelding I had, looked best about 350#, and was too thin at 325#; he was weighed a lot, as he had PPID and I was tracking his weight to manage his diet and condition). While not ideal, a weight tape would help track his weight; in my experience they tend to weight 30-50# heavy for large minis, but my tape was older, so could be stretched out. [The weight formulas work decently for minis.]
Soaking hay to remove extra sugars... If you can find tested grass hay that is 10% or less sugar/starch combined, you do not need to soak; but it's not always easy to find tested hay, and it's not budget friendly to test yourself, if you do not buy 6-12 months worth at a time. Soak for 30 minutes in warm water or 60 minutes in cold water to remove sugars; more time just removes other nutrients and risks souring the hay. Most seem to have easiest time using a hay net, and dunking in a muck bucket of water, weighing it down with a brick, then dump the water where the horse can't reach it. [Being it's a mini, you won't need a full muck bucket of water, but use plenty of water, more water will help leach out more sugars, as the water doesn't become saturated with sugars as fast.]
I don't share this pictures often, but I bought Misty obese, and she went on a diet almost immediately. Not too long before I bought her she had been on a free choice alfalfa diet, the person I got her from had moved her to grass hay, but still free choice plus grazing. When I got her, I controlled her intake, and fed 2% of her bodyweight daily. She's a 38" mare, that typically weighs around 390# without being obese, but probably a little chunky. In the pics she was only a 2 year old (3 year old for the year later pic), so not filled out nor at mature build. Weight tape said she was like 440#, formula showed lower. I've kept some record of weight over the years, but not all of them, and no pics were taken on the day I took weights, so I don't have exact matches. [The person I bought from has been photoshopped out of the "fat" pic.] Her diet was measured grass hay (I can't remember how much I fed her, but it like 10# daily or a bit less, being she's a big girl) and a size appropriate serving of ration balancer (at that time, it was Progressive Nutrition Grass Advantage, but that product is now discontinued).

 

[Anna]

Hello, I just want to thank everyone for their responses. Unfortunately my update is not good news. Mini ended up in the clinic after taking fatty liver (Lipidosis). After fluids and tests, she was diagnosed with EMS/IR alongside the Lami.
I am absolutely devasted and feel this is my fault, Although I followed the advice of my vet (who is an excellent vet) I feel that just soaked hay and a bare paddock were not the best choices and this contributed to the Lipidosis.
I need to point out that the soaked hay regime and bare paddock was ongoing for several weeks, I only found this forum a few days ago, because I was desperately uncomfortable with how fast my vet recommended she lose the weight and did have the fear she could end up with Lipidosis.
I wish I had found here sooner, I wish with all my heart I had done things differently because of how uncomfortable I was with the advice.
And I feel that I am to blame, my little girl trusted me and I let her down.
I don't honestly know how I can live with this..

 

[Marsha Cassada]

So sorry! I have more than once stood outside the vet office and cried because I felt whatever happened was my fault.
I don't know how much bute was given, but you can find topics on this forum about people who lost their horses to bute overdose. Some Vets don't really seem to know that much about miniature horses and their special needs.

 

[DB Minis]

Anna, do not blame yourself whatsoever! You followed your vet's advice and tried your absolute best to help Mini. There are many people out there that do this, take in rescues and make dramatic changes for improvement, and sometimes it just works out fine. It's so difficult to predict any outcome, we can only try our best with the knowledge and support around us.

What does the future hold for Mini now? Keep looking forward, what is done is done and can't be changed. Add this experience to your bank of lifetime knowledge and focus on your next step forward. Mini still trusts you to continue her journey from here and she will stick with you as long as you stick with her.

My vet prescribed bute after my yearling's castration and I was very happy to have these forums to read about others' experiences before using it. I believe the biggest issue is vets prescribing a medication to a mini with just a rough guess of their weight (a vet that recommends a full horse dose to a mini is one to be very wary of!). I'm sure many seemingly unsafe medications for minis are actually safe when they are dosed properly, unfortunately I don't think enough vets properly dose minis so it helps to do a little looking around yourself. Through these forums I found a recommended dose by body weight and accurately weighed the medication and the horse to make sure they got the right dose.

 

[MaryFlora]

I’m sorry, Anna. As others have already mentioned, please don’t blame yourself. You turned to a professional for help and have followed through to help Mini.

Almost anyone with animals has stood in your boots , questioning and grieving about an outcome, and we understand.

As DB Minis has stated, “keep looking forward“ and let us know how things are going.

 

[Abby P]

I'm so sorry, Anna! But like everyone else said, you were doing the best you could and it's so awfully hard to predict exactly what will happen in these cases, so please don't beat yourself up about it. Hopefully the clinic can get her stabilized and then get a good plan together for you going forward! Please keep us updated as you can, we're pulling for you and Mini!

 

[Anna]

She didnt make it the vets couldn't get her stabilized, she stopped eating on saturday so we made the decision to euthanize.
thank you for all your assistance, I wish I had found this place years ago. I will never be able to replace her and right now I don't know if I am fit to carry on keeping horses, this is a mistake I don't think I can forgive myself for.

 

[Abby P]

Oh no, I'm so sorry. It really, really isn't your fault - you were doing everything you could for her.

 

[Kelly]

Im so sorry, how sad. You did the best you could do with the information you had at the time. If you could have done better then you would have. You have a beautiful heart and lots of love to give, Mini was very lucky to have you.

 

[MaryFlora]

I’m so sorry. You did all you could.

Someone once said, “forgiving isn’t the same as forgetting”. Hard things happen and sometimes it isn’t a matter of blame, not you, not the vet. Remember what you love and bring that care and energy to bear on your future activities. I hope that includes horses, whether you own or volunteer at a facility.

In the meantime, know we understand through our own hard experiences, and this forum is always open.

 

[Marsha Cassada]

She didnt make it the vets couldn't get her stabilized, she stopped eating on saturday so we made the decision to euthanize.
thank you for all your assistance, I wish I had found this place years ago. I will never be able to replace her and right now I don't know if I am fit to carry on keeping horses, this is a mistake I don't think I can forgive myself for.

I lost my Dapper Dan this spring. He was 27 and was mine for most of his life. We "grew up together", he maturing and me learning about horses. His loss has taken the heart out of me for horses. I do have another, but it isn't the same.

 

[betwys1]

I have a treadmill. I walk a few (very few) minutes each day. I wonder if a treadmill could cope with a mini? That's about twice what they are designed for. Could be a help with high cholesterol (hyperlipidemia) though...

 

[DB Minis]

I am so sorry for your loss Anna, as everyone else has said you absolutely did your best for Mini. Give yourself as much time as you need to recover from this. If you ever decide to continue your journey with horses please know you are not replacing Mini, you are welcoming a new soul and Mini would be happy to know your love is going to a new friend.

 

[1roadtoad]

Anna, I also am sorry for your loss and like others on this forum feel as though you did all that you knew to do while getting advice along the way. Marsha in the above post mentions that she lost her horse recently and although she has another horse, it's just not the same. I feel that way too, as I lost my mini Lady almost 3 years ago to PPID and chronic Lyme disease. I don't know if I'll ever stop asking myself what I could have done differently to have a better outcome, but what I do know is that I tried my best to do what I could for her. My heart is still broken and my barnyard is not the same, but after months of seeing no horse in my backyard, I decided to get not one but 2 more minis. Like I said, it's not the same, but it's good. I get to love them and hug on them and tell them all about Lady. I hope that at some point you recognize that you did all that you could for Mini and with that begin to heal. Again, so sorry.